Kurt Warner - Very good breakdown of Josh Allen’s play agains the Fins

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I respectfully disagree.  Look at Elway before Shanahan got there and after.  Josh MUST do more of what Warner says and he MUST quit doing stupid *****.  

 

You can't tell me he can't not grow up and quit doing the stupid stuff.  

 

I agree with your disagreement.  You could even throw in Favre as another example.  A wild man, a gun slinger, when he had a coach who persuaded him to rein it in and stop doing stupid *****, straight to the conference championship, Superbowl Baby!

 

It's even a bit more frustrating than that since Josh HAS had games where he has grown up and quit doing the stupid stuff.  Examples would include 2020 Rams and Seattle games, 2021 KC regular season game and NWE and KC playoff games.  In 2020, Allen had 37 passing TDs and 10 interceptions.  He not only can do it, he has done it at times.

[Wayne Arnold]

51 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree with your disagreement.  You could even throw in Favre as another example.  A wild man, a gun slinger, when he had a coach who persuaded him to rein it in and stop doing stupid *****, straight to the conference championship, Superbowl Baby!

 

It's even a bit more frustrating than that since Josh HAS had games where he has grown up and quit doing the stupid stuff.  Examples would include 2020 Rams and Seattle games, 2021 KC regular season game and NWE and KC playoff games.  In 2020, Allen had 37 passing TDs and 10 interceptions.  He not only can do it, he has done it at times.

 

Still think it's overblown. He doesn't throw pick 6's or fumble in end zones. He throws bombs on 4th down instead of taking sacks. Box score scouts say taking a sack on the 40 yard line on Sunday night (Dolphins start their drive at the 40) is better than committing throwing a pick in the end zone (Dolphins start their drive at the 20) but analytics say otherwise.

[BillsFan130]

12 hours ago, SoMAn said:

He's kind of right, but not entirely.  One of the issues with the up and down win-loss roller coaster during Dorsey's final games was putting handcuffs  and leg shackles on Josh. Josh has got to be Josh. He's not Kurt Warner. Yes, he has to be conventional and trust his receivers, but he's not a classic pocket passer and I doubt he ever will be.

This is kind of where I'm at.

 

Does he need to take more layups at times? For sure.

 

But what makes Josh special is his off script play. So there's got to be that balance between "Josh being Josh" and taking the 5-7 yard plays

[AlfaBill]

Seems to me that Brady needs to build in some quicker hot reads. 

[Buffalo716]

Kurt is obviously a really smart football player... And he certainly knows the quarterback position

 

he knows what he sees and he makes a lot of good points... The coach in me has a little constructive criticism

 

Kurt always says the difficulty with Allen is balancing staying on schedule and creating... And he is correct... 

 

Kurt also says he has no idea how difficult it is to balance that relationship... 

 

And he's also correct... Kurt has zero idea what it's like to have that much athleticism and play the quarterback position

 

It's easy for him to see a first and 10... And see Josh pass up a 4-yard throw in the flat... And in his mind of football... And his style... He needs to hit that and it's the only option... You can't miss that layup and then get to your second or third read late

 

But that flat route was Kurt's first read as a quarterback... He needed to stay in rhythm

 

And Josh has shown he could throw in rhythm... But he also can operate sans system ... And make winning plays 

 

Josh can sit on the deep square in or comeback ... Because he can make the throw regularly... He doesn't always need to play fast processing

 

Which he can do and has shown he can do ... But his arm strength and accuracy coupled with his ability to run... Is uncontainable

 

There's a happy medium but you certainly don't want to handicap his ability to create 

 

70% on script 30% creating seems like a good balance

 

 

 

 

[JMM]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree with your disagreement.  You could even throw in Favre as another example.  A wild man, a gun slinger, when he had a coach who persuaded him to rein it in and stop doing stupid *****, straight to the conference championship, Superbowl Baby!

 

It's even a bit more frustrating than that since Josh HAS had games where he has grown up and quit doing the stupid stuff.  Examples would include 2020 Rams and Seattle games, 2021 KC regular season game and NWE and KC playoff games.  In 2020, Allen had 37 passing TDs and 10 interceptions.  He not only can do it, he has done it at times.

I fully agree with this.  The closest comparisons to Josh are Elway and Favre, especially Favre. A WCO and a STRONG O coach was the key to harnessing their incredible gifts and making them champions.  I would love to see them bring in someone experienced, strong and some sort of WCO system for him.

[GoBills808]

56 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Kurt is obviously a really smart football player... And he certainly knows the quarterback position

 

he knows what he sees and he makes a lot of good points... The coach in me has a little constructive criticism

 

Kurt always says the difficulty with Allen is balancing staying on schedule and creating... And he is correct... 

 

Kurt also says he has no idea how difficult it is to balance that relationship... 

 

And he's also correct... Kurt has zero idea what it's like to have that much athleticism and play the quarterback position

 

It's easy for him to see a first and 10... And see Josh pass up a 4-yard throw in the flat... And in his mind of football... And his style... He needs to hit that and it's the only option... You can't miss that layup and then get to your second or third read late

 

But that flat route was Kurt's first read as a quarterback... He needed to stay in rhythm

 

And Josh has shown he could throw in rhythm... But he also can operate sans system ... And make winning plays 

 

Josh can sit on the deep square in or comeback ... Because he can make the throw regularly... He doesn't always need to play fast processing

 

Which he can do and has shown he can do ... But his arm strength and accuracy coupled with his ability to run... Is uncontainable

 

There's a happy medium but you certainly don't want to handicap his ability to create 

 

70% on script 30% creating seems like a good balance

 

 

 

 

It needs to be resaid that Warner was throwing to two Hall of Famers in Faulk and Bruce

 

He hardly has some everyman QB opinion on how to play the position

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

It needs to be resaid that Warner was throwing to two Hall of Famers in Faulk and Bruce

 

He hardly has some everyman QB opinion on how to play the position

Of course... And he was throwing to Torrey holt too

 

Everywhere he looked people were running open... Not the same with Josh

Edited January 11 by Buffalo716

[Solomon Grundy]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It needs to be resaid that Warner was throwing to two Hall of Famers in Faulk and Bruce

 

He hardly has some everyman QB opinion on how to play the position

Who was he throwing to in Arizona and NY? 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Who was he throwing to in Arizona and NY? 

Well he did have anquan boldin and Larry Fitzgerald in Arizona

 

But it takes two to tango...

 

Is Kurt Warner the best quarterback I've ever seen? No... But he is the lowest end of Hall of famer I would let in

 

he had a really quick release and supreme placement of the ball

[SoonerBillsFan]

11 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree with your disagreement.  You could even throw in Favre as another example.  A wild man, a gun slinger, when he had a coach who persuaded him to rein it in and stop doing stupid *****, straight to the conference championship, Superbowl Baby!

 

It's even a bit more frustrating than that since Josh HAS had games where he has grown up and quit doing the stupid stuff.  Examples would include 2020 Rams and Seattle games, 2021 KC regular season game and NWE and KC playoff games.  In 2020, Allen had 37 passing TDs and 10 interceptions.  He not only can do it, he has done it at times.

Look at how much cleaner his 3 games were after the Opener against the Jets. 8 Td's only 1 pick.  So yes he CAN, and that needs to be the norm.

[Billsfan1972]

27 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Look at how much cleaner his 3 games were after the Opener against the Jets. 8 Td's only 1 pick.  So yes he CAN, and that needs to be the norm.

Again vs. Miami, you can't convince me the first int wasn't due to Gabe not reading the play correctly.  If Cook too makes the block then it is a TD.

 

The second Int netted the Bills 17 yards.  Maybe yes he should have hit Kincaid in the flat, but again once he didn't, why was every other option running 25 yards down the field on a fourth & 2????

 

Finally the one I will fault allen was not hitting Diggs on what would have been a 90 yard TD.  He's missed too many this year. 

 

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Still think it's overblown. He doesn't throw pick 6's or fumble in end zones. He throws bombs on 4th down instead of taking sacks. Box score scouts say taking a sack on the 40 yard line on Sunday night (Dolphins start their drive at the 40) is better than committing throwing a pick in the end zone (Dolphins start their drive at the 20) but analytics say otherwise.

 

If the only two options on 4th down were take a sack or heave to the endzone, sure. But with a split second more patience as Warner indicates he had a first down throw and he comes off it too quickly. 

[Billsfan1972]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If the only two options on 4th down were take a sack or heave to the endzone, sure. But with a split second more patience as Warner indicates he had a first down throw and he comes off it too quickly. 

Yes he keeps saying it and I keep asking why there were no other options?  Looked like a badly designed play.  He throws it immediately to Kincaid and still not 100% sure he gets the first down.  Add to that he rolls right and Kincaid is on the left and the only one running a short route.  

 

When you watch other teams and successful plays on fourth down, often it is a well thought out play and an easy pitch and catch.  This as not.

 

Conversely (& thank you Jax) they had three chances on Sunday vs. Tenn.  First one fortunately Lawrence missed Ridley on what would have bneen a TD, but third & fourth down plays were lousy.  

[MrEpsYtown]

Tom Brady was the master of the E-P system and the one thing that he always had was football intelligent receivers. Maybe he was more demanding of them or whatever, but it was kind of rare seeing guys run the wrong route in that system with the Pats. Troy Brown, Gronk, Welker etc...those guys understood the job and spacing. Then you add a highly football-intelligent guy like Randy Moss and the sky is the limit. That's why Edelman was such a great player, a former QB who understood coverages and played WR like a QB. Plus Brady had backs like Kevin Faulk and James White who understood this as well. People have said it, but that's the dynamic Cole Beasley brought to this offense that is still missing. Kincaid is interesting and doing some of those things but he is still raw and Shakir has done some good stuff, but there needs to be a changeover in that room. Beasley was almost always right and he was the difference. I thought Beasley would be easily replaceable. I was wrong. In my opinion, with Beasley, Josh was at his best because he didn't rush through progressions...he knew his safety valve was always in the right place. 

 

So I think the Bills have two choices going forward, either change the offensive system or change the type of receivers they target and acquire. 
 

Really strong breakdown by Warner. 

Edited January 11 by MrEpsYtown

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

21 hours ago, corta765 said:

 

His sainthood is overboard but the offense was far more consistent, creative, and dynamic with Daboll. With Dorsey the offense clearly regressed in those areas and was incredibly predictable. The Bills rushing attack with Daboll was 8th in 2019, 19th in 2020, and 6th in 2021 so that is kind of a weird angle to pick.  The biggest credit with Daboll was he seemed to settle Josh down in 2020 and 2021 in way that truly limited his mistakes or goofball mistakes. Before and after those years Josh has had more of those highs and lows and I think that is the big thing people look at was what he managed to do there.

I don’t want an offense where the QB leads the team in rush yards. 

[Don Otreply]

15 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I agree with your disagreement.  You could even throw in Favre as another example.  A wild man, a gun slinger, when he had a coach who persuaded him to rein it in and stop doing stupid *****, straight to the conference championship, Superbowl Baby!

 

It's even a bit more frustrating than that since Josh HAS had games where he has grown up and quit doing the stupid stuff.  Examples would include 2020 Rams and Seattle games, 2021 KC regular season game and NWE and KC playoff games.  In 2020, Allen had 37 passing TDs and 10 interceptions.  He not only can do it, he has done it at times.

I know, It’s like he really dislikes that style of play for some unknown reason, he keeps reverting back to sloppy play when things aren’t going well, instead of doing what he already knows will work, even Tom freaking Brady pointed this out about his play, 

 

God knows if Josh will ever figure it out all the way, But without him the team doesn’t have a chance for success, so buckle up Bills Mafia, the Josh Allen experience is in full swing, it’s gonna be Fuh king awesome, LFG!!! 

 

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Man with No Name]

13 hours ago, JMM said:

I fully agree with this.  The closest comparisons to Josh are Elway and Favre, especially Favre. A WCO and a STRONG O coach was the key to harnessing their incredible gifts and making them champions.  I would love to see them bring in someone experienced, strong and some sort of WCO system for him.

At this point, it's the only reason I would like to see McDermott leave. Though flawed, I think he's a good coach.I think he's shown some growth. I just don't think he's the guy to bring our unicorn to his full potential. 

 

Im also not sure if there is a slam dunk candidate who can do that. 

[78thealltimegreat]

Kurt is correct Josh should just take a bunch of checkdowns.

The thing is Kurt had Marshall Faulk, Isaac Bruce, Tory Holt, and Az Haikim in Stl. In Az he had Larry Fitzgerald and Anquin Bolden. All of those guys could take a checkdown or a slant and go the distance. Also you think Marshal Faulk drops open touchdown passes like Cook has done multiple times. 

 

Josh has Steph Diggs that’s it for his entire career. He’s taken a mediocre receiver that’s putting it mildly in Gabe Davis and about to get him paid. 

The talent is getting better but half of Josh’s ints are Gabe Davis related. Upgrade number 2 with a guy who can do that he’ll cut his ints in half. 

[Beck Water]

55 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Kurt is correct Josh should just take a bunch of checkdowns.

 

That is NOT at all Kurt's point.  Sheesh, people.  Kurt's point is that sometimes it would benefit Josh, and the team, for Josh to operate a bit more within the designed structure of the play.  Remember when the Bills were dreadful in the red zone last year?  That's at times, because Josh was overlooking the plays available within the designed structure, in favor of free-lancing.  And since that tendency is on tape now, sometimes that led him into trouble.

 

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

I know, It’s like he really dislikes that style of play for some unknown reason,

 

I think the reasons are pretty clear. 

1) Josh is a fierce competitor.  If he thinks he can "go for the gusto", why take the 6 yard gain off the 2 yard route to the flat?

2) For most of his formative football years (HS, Juco, College) Josh pretty much was the team.  He only had 1 or 2 other players at most he could count on.  So he would go to them, or take it himself. 

3) The throwing style Josh came out of college with legit made it hard for him to hit those dump-offs to the flat or little slants.  It wasn't until he changed his mechanics in the 2019 off season that he legit could hit them consistently, and he still reverts to his previous mechanics when he's injured.

 

The problem with 1) is that at this point, his tendencies are clear, so the "gusto" routes are getting jumped and picked at a higher rate.

Edited January 11 by Beck Water