See yourself out Allen haters!!!!

[Scott7975]

34 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

He 100% threw it in the direction of the boundary. Which, based on the defenders leverage, is where Gabe should have went.

 

When Allen releases the ball, the red circle below is where he is throwing to - and you can see that Gabe is headed directly toward it.

 

 

Then Gabe suddenly stops and fights back THROUGH the defender, for some reason that I can’t even begin to understand:

 

 

And the defender intercepts it exactly where Gabe should have been.

 

 

And here they are side by side.

 

 

I really dont understand how Gunner can keep disagreeing with this.  Its clear as day.

20 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

It was a bad throw to that spot given that Davis had not won the route at the time the ball was thrown. If he didn’t break back across the defender the DB still would’ve been in a position to intercept it. At that point he ran Gabe’s route for him. But you know the irony of it all? These pics remind me of the OT miscommunication in which Gabe was also blamed. There, he immediately won the route and continued up the field to the left where the ball should’ve been thrown, but for some reason Josh threw to the right, which means Davis would’ve had to break back across the DB he just won the route against. The end zone view of that Eagles pass couldn’t illustrate it any better that the ball was put in the wrong location. That was on a route Gabe won. This one he didn’t win, certainly not in the direction the ball was going, so he broke back across to open field.
 

If Josh throws that, it has to go even wider left. When he looked Gabe’s way his arm was immediately going in motion, no time to assess. He banked on Gabe sitting on the route, but Gabe broke back in. If it’s not a clean win for Davis, dirt the ball and get the 3 points. That’s not what happened though. 

 

First, its throwing with anticipation.  Ya know the thing everyone complained about before?  Also the pressure was there, he had to get rid of the ball.  Secondly, it would not have been intercepted.  At worst it would have been incomplete because Davis had position on the DB to box him out.  Its an all out blitz.  It makes no sense for Davis to cut back across.  That takes too much time.

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

I don’t dwell on anything, sir. I try to discuss what happened on debated plays, but if it’s not “everyone else’s fault but Josh” it starts the back and forth between you and the “hatred” accusers.
 

The big picture of what Allen has brought to the Bills? Listen, I was a fan during the drought years, I probably missed less than 5 games, so I know the luxury we have at the QB position. It’s the only reason the Bills are relevant. I’m not hypercritical of that talent, but I can objectively state when he makes a bad decision/play, without putting the blame on everyone else. Are others to blame on plays where he does something boneheaded? Sure, sometimes. But not all the time. It’s you and others like you who think he can do no wrong and if he does wrong, it’s because someone else is at fault, be it the coordinator or his teammates. That’s the really weird part of the Allen discussion. The “Allen worship” as you state.

But here you are calling people who disagree with you "haters" and "Allen worshipers". I can only speak for myself when I say I don't hate you or any of the group that IMO is way to hostile to Allen.  It just rubs me the wrong way when you guys throw so much shade at Allen.  And I was a lurker on 2BD when the Bills drafted Allen in 2018 and I read the posts of a lot of you guys.  And sorry but the venom thrown at Allen on draft night and in the months after was over the top and IMO has leaked into these later seasons.

 

And like you I lived through the drought years with terrible QBing but I also lived through the mostly terrible QBing of the late 1960's - late 1980's. With the exception of a couple of good but not great seasons from Ferguson. Before Allen arrived the Bills had great QBing for 6 (Kelly, 88 - 93) of 50 years.  So maybe I just appreciate how good we have it with Allen today.  I don't want to make the same mistake in my older years as a Bills fan with Allen that I made as a younger fan who used to chant for Garry Marangi over Joe Ferguson.  And Fergy wasn't in the same zip code of being as good as Allen.

 

[Brand J]

6 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I really dont understand how Gunner can keep disagreeing with this.  Its clear as day.

 

First, its throwing with anticipation.  Ya know the thing everyone complained about before?  Also the pressure was there, he had to get rid of the ball.  Secondly, it would not have been intercepted.  At worst it would have been incomplete because Davis had position on the DB to box him out.  Its an all out blitz.  It makes no sense for Davis to cut back across.  That takes too much time.

No arguments that Allen had to get rid of the ball, the pressure was in his face. The argument is the ball placement. I wouldn’t care if Allen threw it at Gabe’s feet. Wouldn’t care if he threw it out of the endzone. Wouldn't care if he threw it wide of both players and it went to no one in particular. We still get the 3 points in every single one of those situations.
 

Do you see the DB looking at Allen when he decides to throw in that direction? You cannot state unequivocally that Gabe would’ve boxed him out and knocked the pass down. I can’t state unequivocally that it would’ve been an INT, but I’m far more likely to believe Gabe wouldn’t have made a play to knock it down and the DB would’ve picked it off, because the DB already had eyes on Allen and was tracking the ball. Gabe still would’ve had to have the time to locate it when he turned around. And would’ve had to have the split second reaction to knock it down or box the DB out. That’s asking a lot when you don’t need to.
Advantage DB. 

[Einstein]

32 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

It was a bad throw to that spot given that Davis had not won the route at the time the ball was thrown.

 

In the NFL, passes are not thrown once a receiver wins the route. That’s not a thing. It’s throwing with anticipation. This was an option route.

 

if Gabe kept going, that’s a touchdown. Heck, the defender who was behind Gabe even caught it.

[Brand J]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

But here you are calling people who disagree with you "haters" and "Allen worshipers". I can only speak for myself when I say I don't hate you or any of the group that IMO is way to hostile to Allen.  It just rubs me the wrong way when you guys throw so much shade at Allen.  And I was a lurker on 2BD when the Bills drafted Allen in 2018 and I read the posts of a lot of you guys.  And sorry but the venom thrown at Allen on draft night and in the months after was over the top and IMO has leaked into these later seasons.

 

And like you I lived through the drought years with terrible QBing but I also lived through the mostly terrible QBing of the late 1960's - late 1980's. With the exception of a couple of good but not great seasons from Ferguson. Before Allen arrived the Bills had great QBing for 6 (Kelly, 88 - 93) of 50 years.  So maybe I just appreciate how good we have it with Allen today.  I don't want to make the same mistake in my older years as a Bills fan with Allen that I made as a younger fan who used to chant for Garry Marangi over Joe Ferguson.  And Fergy wasn't in the same zip code of being as good as Allen.

 

You’ve got me beat, I definitely wasn’t around for those earlier years. I don’t even know who Garry Marangi is, haha. But I’ve never called anyone here a hater, that’s a term reserved for those who are sensitive to criticism about Allen. It’s been levied in my direction plenty of times. What shade have I ever thrown at Allen? Is criticizing mistakes he makes on the field always shade?

[oldmanfan]

17 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

This is typical of the passive aggressive stuff that is thrown at Allen all the time.  IMO it's weak as hell:

 

*  "our highest paid player".  I love this one.  I guess because the Bills are paying a lot of money to their elite franchise QB he should get more criticism.  What I see from a contract standpoint is that Allen is underpaid relatve to his production and the teams results on the field. I believe that Murry, Herbert & Watson all make more money then Allen.

 

*  "Allen himself will say he played really bad".  One of the great things about Allen is he takes responsibility and never throws a team mate or coach under the bus.  I love that he's hard on himself.  What I wonder is why some fans insist on being as hard on Allen as he is.  It makes me think they never lived through the purgatory years where bad QBing was the norm for 20 years.

 

 

 

 

Should we in your opinion take seriously comments from guys that have played the position in the NFL?

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

This is typical of the passive aggressive stuff that is thrown at Allen all the time.  IMO it's weak as hell:

 

*  "our highest paid player".  I love this one.  I guess because the Bills are paying a lot of money to their elite franchise QB he should get more criticism.  What I see from a contract standpoint is that Allen is underpaid relatve to his production and the teams results on the field. I believe that Murry, Herbert & Watson all make more money then Allen.

 

*  "Allen himself will say he played really bad".  One of the great things about Allen is he takes responsibility and never throws a team mate or coach under the bus.  I love that he's hard on himself.  What I wonder is why some fans insist on being as hard on Allen as he is.  It makes me think they never lived through the purgatory years where bad QBing was the norm for 20 years.

 

 

 

 

Well I for one would rather him at halftime have said

 

"Gabe f'd up the route and Cook dropped a lollipop and should have had 14 more points"😜🤣

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I really dont understand how Gunner can keep disagreeing with this.  Its clear as day.

 

 

In your mind, sure.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

No arguments that Allen had to get rid of the ball, the pressure was in his face. The argument is the ball placement. I wouldn’t care if Allen threw it at Gabe’s feet. Wouldn’t care if he threw it out of the endzone. Wouldn't care if he threw it wide of both players and it went to no one in particular. We still get the 3 points in every single one of those situations.
 

Do you see the DB looking at Allen when he decides to throw in that direction? You cannot state unequivocally that Gabe would’ve boxed him out and knocked the pass down. I can’t state unequivocally that it would’ve been an INT, but I’m far more likely to believe Gabe wouldn’t have made a play to knock it down and the DB would’ve picked it off, because the DB already had eyes on Allen and was tracking the ball. Gabe still would’ve had to have the time to locate it when he turned around. And would’ve had to have the split second reaction to knock it down or box the DB out. That’s asking a lot when you don’t need to.
Advantage DB. 

If I’m correct we did not come away with points 3 out of 4 times in the red zone in the first half.   Offense as a whole has to do better than that.

[26TrapDraw]

We ride or Die with whatever Josh rolls out there. Love him or hate him he’s it and we can only Hope it’s more good Josh. Just that simple.

[Einstein]

21 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

But if you're basing it on the way the DB's hips are open, Gabe goes over the middle. 

 

Leverage is how we choose the pattern on an option route. Eli Apple had inside leverage. Gabe should have went to the boundary (which he originally did). That’s why the defender had open hips. Then he decided to stop and fight through the leverage, back toward the defender.

 

21 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

If Allen hits Gabe over the middle, then it looks like a sick move by Davis because it caused Apple to have his feet in cement.  

 

It was not a sick move. Gabe was not open due to his route running. He only looked open because the defender stopped following him when Allen threw the ball to where he was supposed to.

 

Defender looks at Allen, then stops to catch the ball that Davis abandoned. Gabe is only “open” because the defender stops to catch the INT.

 

 

Not only does it not make sense what Gabe did based on leverage, but also based on the defense. He knew Allen was only going to have a second or two to release the ball. So he ignores his leverage and runs back through it, taking more time than Allen had.

[Royale with Cheese]

22 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I really dont understand how Gunner can keep disagreeing with this.  Its clear as day.

 

First, its throwing with anticipation.  Ya know the thing everyone complained about before?  Also the pressure was there, he had to get rid of the ball.  Secondly, it would not have been intercepted.  At worst it would have been incomplete because Davis had position on the DB to box him out.  Its an all out blitz.  It makes no sense for Davis to cut back across.  That takes too much time.

 

It's not clear as day.  

 

If we are basing it on the DB's hips, since all his weight is on his right leg, then cut across.  It's how you set up a slant, you want to open up that back hip and have them commit to one direction which happened.  It doesn't take too much time.

But we don't know what the route was supposed to be.

 

Since Apple has inside leverage in the beginning, even if Gabe doesn't go inside, that ball still might be picked.  His momentum is going that way and he could jump the ball.  

 

 

[Scott7975]

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

In your mind, sure.

 

Convince me otherwise then.  Not just a Josh didnt even see Davis and he had to guess.  Its obvious Allen seen Davis.  He looking right at him while in throwing motion. He puts the ball right to where Davis would be if he continued that route.  Thats what I see.  

 

The other things I see or think are... why would Davis, while the CB has inside leverage and its an all out blitz run a longer style route by cutting back across the defender.  He practically had to plow through him to cut back across.  There isn't time for that stuff with that kind of pass rush.

 

Convince me otherwise.  You may not and probably wont but I would still like to hear your best argument as to why a receiver is correct in doing what Davis did in this situation.  Ya never know, maybe you will say something to convince me.  It's happened before.  Either way I will at least respect your thought process and opinion.

 

Also on one of Allens ints that was similar to this, Davis did the opposite and so did Josh.  You argued that Davis was correct there too.  How can Davis be correct on both?

 

By the way, I did change my mind because of your thought process on the other int.  Allen should have taken Kincaid and got the first down. So see, it does happen.

Edited January 10 by Scott7975

[CincyBillsFan]

23 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

The issue is you're hypersensitive to any Allen criticisms.

 

He's one of the best players in the league.  He is playing like a first ballet Hall of Famer.  He makes a lot of mistakes but makes more greater plays....its the Josh experience.

 

But he should be criticized when he doesn't play well like every player.

 

Fair enough.  But isn't the point of a Bills message board to argue over things that we disagree on?

 

And I've repeatedly agreed that Allen makes a lot of mistakes.  I bet during the game I get as mad at Allen as most people do after one of his dumb plays. 

 

But in football I practice what I've learned works for me in real life.  It was a simple concept I took from Corporate training by a guy named Steven Covey (fun fact his grandson is the Eagles punt returner) decades ago involving keeping an "emotional bank account". The idea is straightforward, you put up with a lot more from people who are regularly depositing positive stuff in your emotional bank account then taking withdrawals. This has really worked for me with football.  Allen's mistakes definitely are making big time withdrawals from my emotional bank account.  But his great play and his accomplishments as the Bills QB from 2020 to now represent an avalanche of deposits into my emotional bank account.

 

For me these deposits overwhelm the withdrawals.  So I won't apologize for being an Allen fan boy.

 

IMO Allen's style of play which leads to excessive TO's is in his football DNA and except for tweaking things here and there this is the best Allen we can expect.  And IMO this version of Allen is elite and more then good enough to lead Buffalo to a SB win.  One of my points has been that the Bills need to recognize what they have in Allen and move their priority from the D to the O.  And in building their O make sure it involves surrounding Allen with the type of players that will be most comfortable and effective working within his unique skill set. 

 

 

 

 

[Scott7975]

20 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

No arguments that Allen had to get rid of the ball, the pressure was in his face. The argument is the ball placement. I wouldn’t care if Allen threw it at Gabe’s feet. Wouldn’t care if he threw it out of the endzone. Wouldn't care if he threw it wide of both players and it went to no one in particular. We still get the 3 points in every single one of those situations.
 

Do you see the DB looking at Allen when he decides to throw in that direction? You cannot state unequivocally that Gabe would’ve boxed him out and knocked the pass down. I can’t state unequivocally that it would’ve been an INT, but I’m far more likely to believe Gabe wouldn’t have made a play to knock it down and the DB would’ve picked it off, because the DB already had eyes on Allen and was tracking the ball. Gabe still would’ve had to have the time to locate it when he turned around. And would’ve had to have the split second reaction to knock it down or box the DB out. That’s asking a lot when you don’t need to.
Advantage DB. 

 

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with you.  Thats ok.  We all have our own opinions.

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Should we in your opinion take seriously comments from guys that have played the position in the NFL?

 

Sure, but even those opinions have often differed.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Convince me otherwise then.  Not just a Josh didnt even see Davis and he had to guess.  Its obvious Allen seen Davis.  He looking right at him while in throwing motion. He puts the ball right to where Davis would be if he continued that route.  Thats what I see.  

 

The other things I see or think are... why would Davis, while the CB has inside leverage and its an all out blitz run a longer style route by cutting back across the defender.  He practically had to plow through him to cut back across.  There isn't time for that stuff with that kind of pass rush.

 

Convince me otherwise.  You may not and probably wont but I would still like to hear your best argument as to why a receiver is correct in doing what Davis did in this situation.  Ya never know, maybe you will say something to convince me.  It's happened before.  Either way I will at least respect your thought process and opinion.

 

Also on one of Allens ints that was similar to this, Davis did the opposite and so did Josh.  You argued that Davis was correct there too.  How can Davis be correct on both?

 

Where on one of Allen's ints did I argue the opposite. And secondly, I have not argued here that David played this perfectly. That has never been the crux of my argument. My argument it is was a mistake from Josh. He threw a ball up that in my mind he should have eaten. It was the first quarter of a football game. 3 points isn't a disaster. No need to guess on a throw. 

 

I don't need to persuade you. Josh Allen told you he was hurting the team. 

[Brand J]

5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I'm sorry, I just don't agree with you.  Thats ok.  We all have our own opinions.

And there can be disagreements without one calling another a “hater,” or told to “go root for another team.” It’s a message board, nothing has ever been agreed with 100%. Well, except that Star Lotuleile was an incredibly bad signing. Oops, that was hotly debated too!

[CincyBillsFan]

17 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Should we in your opinion take seriously comments from guys that have played the position in the NFL?

Yes you should.  But it's been my experience that when it comes to Allen the comments from guys who played in the NFL and other guys who coached in the NFL is all over the place.  I can find you a guy who says the INT is on Davis, another who says it's on Allen and another who says it wasn't on either and should be filed under s##t happens.  So who am I supposed to believe?

 

Maybe what this comes down to is that I choose to put more value on the final result of how a guy played over the course of the entire game then I do over a couple of bad or good plays. Overall production and wins & losses matter a lot more to me then focusing on a couple of bad plays. 

 

I'll give you an example of what I consider over the top criticism of Allen.  After the Eagles game there were some on 2BD who just wouldn't let up about Allen's ONE INT and the missed communication with Davis in OT. They claimed that those two plays were the reason the Bills lost and demonstrated real limitations and concerns with Allen's play.  I watched that same game and saw a QB who played great, put the team on his back again and was the guy LEAST responsible for the loss. If that is being overly sensitive about criticism of Allen then so be it.

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Leverage is how we choose the pattern on an option route. Eli Apple had inside leverage. Gabe should have went to the boundary (which he originally did). That’s why the defender had open hips. Then he decided to stop and fight through the leverage, back toward the defender.

 

 

It was not a sick move. Gabe was not open due to his route running. He only looked open because the defender stopped following him when Allen threw the ball to where he was supposed to.

 

Defender looks at Allen, then stops to catch the ball that Davis abandoned. Gabe is only “open” because the defender stops to catch the INT.

 

 

Not only does it not make sense what Gabe did based on leverage, but also based on the defense. He knew Allen was only going to have a second or two to release the ball. So he ignores his leverage and runs back through it, taking more time than Allen had.

 

LOL dude, come on.

 

You are basically saying that you never commit a DB's weight one way to go another.  You just continue going wherever his hips are...come on.

You aren't seriously saying that are you?

 

 

 

[Einstein]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

If we are basing it on the DB's hips, since all his weight is on his right leg, then cut across.  It's how you set up a slant, you want to open up that back hip and have them commit to one direction which happened.  It doesn't take too much time.

But we don't know what the route was supposed to be.

 

The defender only had open hips because Gabe went to the boundary. He didn't start there. He started inside, with base, and any option route is going to tell you to run boundary or deep there.

 

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Since Apple has inside leverage in the beginning, even if Gabe doesn't go inside, that ball still might be picked.  

 

Wait, what? Inside leverage = outside break or deep. Since we are in the endzone, deep is not an option. NOT a slant. Running a slant on inside leverage is asking for the defender to jump the ball and intercept it. Here are two examples:

 

Which is exactly why Gabe originally went outside, and then fought back inside.