See yourself out Allen haters!!!!

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 1/7/2024 at 11:33 PM, Herc11 said:

I said it in the 2nd half thread and I'll say it again...

 

Some of you, and you know who you are, need to turn in your fan cards. So called fans crumbling in the face of adversity and calling for the Bills to draft a new QB or even go get Flacco. Absolute jokes

Lol who said that? I haven’t even seen the biggest haters on the board say something that stupid. Most of them want McD canned, not Allen. 

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

No I did not.  I will say that as a fan I may look closer at what happened and if there is blame.  I.e. Davis letting a strike go through his hands vs. Denver and being intercepted, wasn't nearly talked enough about.

 

It is an inherent bias.  Every Josh int one looks at and can often excuse (i.e. arm punt on 3rd down and long, end of the half Hail Mary, receiver didn't fight for it, deflection.....). 

 

Conversely if not a fan of the QB, you'll say say they threw interception worthy passes or got lucky.

 

BTW I thought there is a stat that in terms of "interception worthy passes" or something similar, Josh is nowere near the worst (though stats say he throws the most ints).    

 

Or conversely you will be a fan of the Quarterback and still start each assessment entirely neutrally and look objectively at is he at fault or not. 

 

For example, two that immediately come to mind this year where Josh was just pure unlucky against the Giants and the Buccs where tips that might otherwise have fallen safe just happened to fall to a defender. The Denver one you mentioned yourself I think he throws it harder than he needed to but Gabe can come down with that ball. The hail mary at the end of the Jets first half... not a mistake by Josh. There are INTs that I don't put on him. The one against the Bengals I put on the receiver as well (was that Gabe too? Can't recall). So this isn't a blame Josh for everything. It is try and be objective about each incident in isolation. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

Enjoy him while he’s here, folks because it’s unlikely Buffalo will ever have a QB of his caliber again. I’m going to enjoy the playoffs instead of stressing myself out like some people do here. Whatever happens happens. 

[Billsfan1972]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Or conversely you will be a fan of the Quarterback and still start each assessment entirely neutrally and look objectively at is he at fault or not. 

 

For example, two that immediately come to mind this year where Josh was just pure unlucky against the Giants and the Buccs where tips that might otherwise have fallen safe just happened to fall to a defender. The Denver one you mentioned yourself I think he throws it harder than he needed to but Gabe can come down with that ball. The hail mary at the end of the Jets first half... not a mistake by Josh. There are INTs that I don't put on him. The one against the Bengals I put on the receiver as well (was that Gabe too? Can't recall). So this isn't a blame Josh for everything. It is try and be objective about each incident in isolation. 

Again was a game changer.   Was 3rd down, would have been in the red zone and if an incompletion a FG attempt.  And again with the Allen "threw it to hard"?  How is that an excuse Gabe was running accross the field and it hit him on the run in both his hands?🙄

[Einstein]

54 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

QB needs to not guess which way his receiver has gone on an option route when he can't really see through the rush

 

Both the QB and WR should be making their decision based on reading the defensive back.

Everything about Eli Apple’s positioning (he has inside leverage against Gabe) screams to either run toward the boundary, or do a comeback route. Literally nothing about his positioning tells Gabe to run inside to where the defender already is!

 

Gabe’s decision to go inside is part of why it took him so long to get open. Gabe had to fight back through the defender in order to get separation.

 

Inside leverage:

 

Deciding to fight back THROUGH the defender for some reason:

 

And the only reason Gabe ever got separation is because Eli Apple let him go and stood still, since he was looking at the backfield and saw Josh release the ball.

 

This was just a fail in every way for Gabe Davis imo.

[Brand J]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Or conversely you will be a fan of the Quarterback and still start each assessment entirely neutrally and look objectively at is he at fault or not. 

 

For example, two that immediately come to mind this year where Josh was just pure unlucky against the Giants and the Buccs where tips that might otherwise have fallen safe just happened to fall to a defender. The Denver one you mentioned yourself I think he throws it harder than he needed to but Gabe can come down with that ball. The hail mary at the end of the Jets first half... not a mistake by Josh. There are INTs that I don't put on him. The one against the Bengals I put on the receiver as well (was that Gabe too? Can't recall). So this isn't a blame Josh for everything. It is try and be objective about each incident in isolation. 

See, I’m not sure this is possible on this message board or any other. If every single poster could objectively discuss Josh Allen mistakes, there wouldn’t be the “hater” comments and red disagree Xs that dot every comment in which Allen is assessed blame.
 

Just reading some of the replies about the INTs in this game… one poster said about the first INT that Allen “was looking Gabe’s way the entire time,” I mean that’s just factually wrong but was mentioned as a way to protect Allen’s decision making. Certain players are not allowed to be critiqued without derision. It’s strange to me, but it is what it is.

[LarryMadman]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree that was the only mistake. I put both interceptions primarily on Josh. But I agree if Cook catches a ball that he has to catch it is 14 all at the half. 

 

What I was disputing was the inference that unless you excuse Josh for the mistakes you can't be a Josh fan. I am a Josh fan, he is the most watchable player in football and while I would still rank Mahomes #1 I wouldn't swap Josh Allen for any player in football. There is nobody else I'd rather were the Bills Quarterback. But I also apply the same standard to him that I apply to everyone else on the Bills and everyone else in the league and when I see a mistake I call it out. 

That 4th down play has been disected 1000 ways to sunday. Josh seen the LB already crashing down on Kincaid and didnt think Dalton could get the first down so he rolled right because the play was blown up. Getting squeezed by the sideline he decided to throw deep knowing there are 3 options, why are there 2 guys 40 yards down field on a 4th and 2 by the way, who knows, but there was, Dorseys plays I guess. Best case was a lucky TD, second was an interception and touchback and lastly was an incomplete pass. Josh knew all that and knew an interception touchback was a better option than just throwing an incompletion because where Miami would get the ball. Josh did play 4D chess on that play banking on dumb Miami defenders intercepting that instead of just knocking it down to gain yards and he was right.

 

Dude is smart and yes he makes bad decisions at times, I mostly attribute to Dorseys horrible play designs. His WR are never open like other teams so he constantly is trying to fit the ball into the smallest windows of any QB, absolutely has to be frusterating for him to try and have perfect ball placement at all times. Can't wait to see the Dorsey playbook shackles taken off both him and Brady next season.   

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

No.  You were trying to say that people criticize Cook or Davis or whoever but other people can't call out Allen.  I pointed out that Allen touches the ball a ton of times whereas the other guys might see it a few times a game in the passing game at best.  The point is... of course their mistakes are magnified.  Their percentage of mistakes is way higher.

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

The best part is rooting for Allen is that he plays the whole game to the end, and regularly makes complete fools of his critics. 

As I said earlier he was phenomenal on the second half.  All Bills fans love Josh but when he makes a mistake he is open to critique like any other player.

[GunnerBill]

42 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Again was a game changer.   Was 3rd down, would have been in the red zone and if an incompletion a FG attempt.  And again with the Allen "threw it to hard"?  How is that an excuse Gabe was running accross the field and it hit him on the run in both his hands?🙄

 

It isn't. I didn't make it one. 

31 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Both the QB and WR should be making their decision based on reading the defensive back.

Everything about Eli Apple’s positioning (he has inside leverage against Gabe) screams to either run toward the boundary, or do a comeback route. Literally nothing about his positioning tells Gabe to run inside to where the defender already is!

 

Gabe’s decision to go inside is part of why it took him so long to get open. Gabe had to fight back through the defender in order to get separation.

 

Inside leverage:

 

Deciding to fight back THROUGH the defender for some reason:

 

And the only reason Gabe ever got separation is because Eli Apple let him go and stood still, since he was looking at the backfield and saw Josh release the ball.

 

This was just a fail in every way for Gabe Davis imo.

 

But Josh didn't throw the ball to the boundary. If he had, he wouldn't have been picked. It would have been incomplete and they would have been kicking a FG. He didn't know where Gabe was he was falling backwards and he just guessed and let the ball go. 

[Einstein]

22 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But Josh didn't throw the ball to the boundary. 

 

He 100% threw it in the direction of the boundary. Which, based on the defenders leverage, is where Gabe should have went.

 

When Allen releases the ball, the red circle below is where he is throwing to - and you can see that Gabe is headed directly toward it.

 

 

Then Gabe suddenly stops and fights back THROUGH the defender, for some reason that I can’t even begin to understand:

 

 

And the defender intercepts it exactly where Gabe should have been.

 

 

And here they are side by side.

 

Edited January 10 by Einstein

[Scott7975]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

It isn't. I didn't make it one. 

 

But Josh didn't throw the ball to the boundary. If he had, he wouldn't have been picked. It would have been incomplete and they would have been kicking a FG. He didn't know where Gabe was he was falling backwards and he just guessed and let the ball go. 

you can see in the last pick that Josh can see where Gabe is and it’s also where the ball landed

[Brand J]

6 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

He 100% threw it in the direction of the boundary. Which, based on the defenders leverage, is where Gabe should have went.

 

When Allen releases the ball, this is where he is throwing to - and you can see that Gabe is headed directly toward it.

 

 

Then Gabe suddenly stops and fights back THROUGH the defender, for some reason that I can’t even begin to understand:

 

 

And the defender intercepts it exactly where Gabe should have been.

 

It was a bad throw to that spot given that Davis had not won the route at the time the ball was thrown. If he didn’t break back across the defender the DB still would’ve been in a position to intercept it. At that point he ran Gabe’s route for him. But you know the irony of it all? These pics remind me of the OT miscommunication in which Gabe was also blamed. There, he immediately won the route and continued up the field to the left where the ball should’ve been thrown, but for some reason Josh threw to the right, which means Davis would’ve had to break back across the DB he just won the route against. The end zone view of that Eagles pass couldn’t illustrate it any better that the ball was put in the wrong location. That was on a route Gabe won. This one he didn’t win, certainly not in the direction the ball was going, so he broke back across to open field.
 

If Josh throws that, it has to go even wider left. When he looked Gabe’s way his arm was immediately going in motion, no time to assess. He banked on Gabe sitting on the route, but Gabe broke back in. If it’s not a clean win for Davis, dirt the ball and get the 3 points. That’s not what happened though. 

[C.Biscuit97]

This thread is such a microcosm of our society. It’s either all or nothing. If you are critical of something, you must hate them. If you are too positive, you are biased.

 

allen is better than I could have ever imagined in my wildest dreams. I hate prospects like him - all the “tools,” not great production. Those guys fail 99% of the time. Allen has become a top 3 qb and it’s absolutely amazing. We are beyond fortunate to have him. 
 

that said, he is getting paid a ton of money so you are allowed to be critical. That was a depleted Miami team playing without 2 of their best pass rushers and lost another good one during the game. We scored 14 points on offense and Allen’s turnovers were a big reason why. If it was a one time thing, you let it go. But it’s been a pattern.

 

Allen makes some of the most spectacular plays I have ever seen. And ints are going to happen because he takes chances. But some of you are kind delusional about how they hurt these team. We have lost or barely beaten bad teams because of our offense and the mistakes we have made. 
 

I am beyond happy to have Allen and to win another division. This is the best period of bills football since I was a little kid. This team can legitimately win the SB. But if also can lose to Pittsburgh (doubtful but still) if they keep beating themselves. 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

This thread is such a microcosm of our society. It’s either all or nothing. If you are critical of something, you must hate them. If you are too positive, you are biased.

 

allen is better than I could have ever imagined in my wildest dreams. I hate prospects like him - all the “tools,” not great production. Those guys fail 99% of the time. Allen has become a top 3 qb and it’s absolutely amazing. We are beyond fortunate to have him. 
 

that said, he is getting paid a ton of money so you are allowed to be critical. That was a depleted Miami team playing without 2 of their best pass rushers and lost another good one during the game. We scored 14 points on offense and Allen’s turnovers were a big reason why. If it was a one time thing, you let it go. But it’s been a pattern.

 

Allen makes some of the most spectacular plays I have ever seen. And ints are going to happen because he takes chances. But some of you are kind delusional about how they hurt these team. We have lost or barely beaten bad teams because of our offense and the mistakes we have made. 
 

I am beyond happy to have Allen and to win another division. This is the best period of bills football since I was a little kid. This team can legitimately win the SB. But if also can lose to Pittsburgh (doubtful but still) if they keep beating themselves. 

Well stated

[C.Biscuit97]

30 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

As I said earlier he was phenomenal on the second half.  All Bills fans love Josh but when he makes a mistake he is open to critique like any other player.

Thats the part that’s really weird to me. Fans would rather trash the rest of the team and make up how bad the supporting cast is then ever criticize our highest paid player.

 

Allen himself will say he played really bad in the first half and hurt the team. Not sure why so fans can’t say the same.

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Thats the part that’s really weird to me. Fans would rather trash the rest of the team and make up how bad the supporting cast is then ever criticize our highest paid player.

 

Allen himself will say he played really bad in the first half and hurt the team. Not sure why so fans can’t say the same.

Not sure why either.  I tend to believe guys that have played the game and this week both Kurt Warner and Rich Gannon have talked about the game, how great Josh was in the second half but also mistakes he made in the first half.  No one hates Josh, at least no one with an ounce of sense.  Things get said on the in game thread out of emotion and frustration sure, but in the end everyone loves having him as our QB.  But no player should be immune to criticism.  

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

See, I’m not sure this is possible on this message board or any other. If every single poster could objectively discuss Josh Allen mistakes, there wouldn’t be the “hater” comments and red disagree Xs that dot every comment in which Allen is assessed blame.
 

Just reading some of the replies about the INTs in this game… one poster said about the first INT that Allen “was looking Gabe’s way the entire time,” I mean that’s just factually wrong but was mentioned as a way to protect Allen’s decision making. Certain players are not allowed to be critiqued without derision. It’s strange to me, but it is what it is.

But the fact is that you and some others do not "objectively discuss Josh Allen mistakes" you dwell on them and refuse to consider that other factors were involved.  You are hyper critical of Allen even in situations where there can be reasonable disagreement about what happened on a play.  Then when you get push back by those of us who are looking at the big picture of what Allen has brought to the Bills you cry "homerism" or accuse us of "Allen worship". 

 

So cry me a river with your complaint that what you guys are doing is objectively criticizing Allen.  We read your damn posts and that is decidedly NOT what you people are doing.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

24 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

He 100% threw it in the direction of the boundary. Which, based on the defenders leverage, is where Gabe should have went.

 

When Allen releases the ball, the red circle below is where he is throwing to - and you can see that Gabe is headed directly toward it.

 

 

Then Gabe suddenly stops and fights back THROUGH the defender, for some reason that I can’t even begin to understand:

 

 

And the defender intercepts it exactly where Gabe should have been.

 

 

And here they are side by side.

 

 

We don't know what the route should have been.

 

But if you're basing it on the way the DB's hips are open, Gabe goes over the middle.  If Allen hits Gabe over the middle, then it looks like a sick move by Davis because it caused Apple to have his feet in cement.  

 

But we don't know what Allen or Gabe is supposed to do on that particular play so we don't have any absolutes.

3 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

But the fact is that you and some others do not "objectively discuss Josh Allen mistakes" you dwell on them and refuse to consider that other factors were involved.  You are hyper critical of Allen even in situations where there can be reasonable disagreement about what happened on a play.  Then when you get push back by those of us who are looking at the big picture of what Allen has brought to the Bills you cry "homerism" or accuse us of "Allen worship". 

 

So cry me a river with your complaint that what you guys are doing is objectively criticizing Allen.  We read your damn posts and that is decidedly NOT what you people are doing.

 

 

 

The issue is you're hypersensitive to any Allen criticisms.

 

He's one of the best players in the league.  He is playing like a first ballet Hall of Famer.  He makes a lot of mistakes but makes more greater plays....its the Josh experience.

 

But he should be criticized when he doesn't play well like every player.

15 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

This thread is such a microcosm of our society. It’s either all or nothing. If you are critical of something, you must hate them. If you are too positive, you are biased.

 

allen is better than I could have ever imagined in my wildest dreams. I hate prospects like him - all the “tools,” not great production. Those guys fail 99% of the time. Allen has become a top 3 qb and it’s absolutely amazing. We are beyond fortunate to have him. 
 

that said, he is getting paid a ton of money so you are allowed to be critical. That was a depleted Miami team playing without 2 of their best pass rushers and lost another good one during the game. We scored 14 points on offense and Allen’s turnovers were a big reason why. If it was a one time thing, you let it go. But it’s been a pattern.

 

Allen makes some of the most spectacular plays I have ever seen. And ints are going to happen because he takes chances. But some of you are kind delusional about how they hurt these team. We have lost or barely beaten bad teams because of our offense and the mistakes we have made. 
 

I am beyond happy to have Allen and to win another division. This is the best period of bills football since I was a little kid. This team can legitimately win the SB. But if also can lose to Pittsburgh (doubtful but still) if they keep beating themselves. 

 

This is absolutely one of the best statements I have read here to the bolded.

 

Agree on everything else.  

 

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, CincyBillsFan said:

But the fact is that you and some others do not "objectively discuss Josh Allen mistakes" you dwell on them and refuse to consider that other factors were involved.  You are hyper critical of Allen even in situations where there can be reasonable disagreement about what happened on a play.  Then when you get push back by those of us who are looking at the big picture of what Allen has brought to the Bills you cry "homerism" or accuse us of "Allen worship". 

 

So cry me a river with your complaint that what you guys are doing is objectively criticizing Allen.  We read your damn posts and that is decidedly NOT what you people are doing.

 

 

I don’t dwell on anything, sir. I try to discuss what happened on debated plays, but if it’s not “everyone else’s fault but Josh” it starts the back and forth between you and the “hatred” accusers.
 

The big picture of what Allen has brought to the Bills? Listen, I was a fan during the drought years, I probably missed less than 5 games, so I know the luxury we have at the QB position. It’s the only reason the Bills are relevant. I’m not hypercritical of that talent, but I can objectively state when he makes a bad decision/play, without putting the blame on everyone else. Are others to blame on plays where he does something boneheaded? Sure, sometimes. But not all the time. It’s you and others like you who think he can do no wrong and if he does wrong, it’s because someone else is at fault, be it the coordinator or his teammates. That’s the really weird part of the Allen discussion. The “Allen worship” as you state.

[CincyBillsFan]

8 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Thats the part that’s really weird to me. Fans would rather trash the rest of the team and make up how bad the supporting cast is then ever criticize our highest paid player.

 

Allen himself will say he played really bad in the first half and hurt the team. Not sure why so fans can’t say the same.

This is typical of the passive aggressive stuff that is thrown at Allen all the time.  IMO it's weak as hell:

 

*  "our highest paid player".  I love this one.  I guess because the Bills are paying a lot of money to their elite franchise QB he should get more criticism.  What I see from a contract standpoint is that Allen is underpaid relatve to his production and the teams results on the field. I believe that Murry, Herbert & Watson all make more money then Allen.

 

*  "Allen himself will say he played really bad".  One of the great things about Allen is he takes responsibility and never throws a team mate or coach under the bus.  I love that he's hard on himself.  What I wonder is why some fans insist on being as hard on Allen as he is.  It makes me think they never lived through the purgatory years where bad QBing was the norm for 20 years.