See yourself out Allen haters!!!!

[Simon]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

The mistake was bailing on the primary read of the TE to the left flat too early and rolling right away from the pressure.  There was a first down there had he fired that pass but pressure came quick on that side.  

 

 

That is definitely a potentially valid argument.

But I think Allen saw the 'backer with Kincaid square in his sights and came off the read because he thought Kincaid would get stuck short of the sticks. After he came off the read, that backer then got caught up in the wash (Shakir driving the slot corner out of the flat, which I'm sure was a total accident;-) which gave the impression that Kincaid was open for the first, when in reality he may not have been.

I have a hard time giving the QB grief for coming off an initial read that looked to be a dead end, particularly when that QB is among the best I've ever seen at making chicken salad.

 

There's a better description of it with a pic posted by Einstein earlier in the thread.

(Trying this link that might take you directly to the post)

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

That is definitely a potentially valid argument.

But I think Allen saw the 'backer with Kincaid square in his sights and came off the read because he thought Kincaid would get stuck short of the sticks. After he came off the read, that backer then got caught up in the wash (Shakir driving the slot corner out of the flat, which I'm sure was a total accident;-) which gave the impression that Kincaid was open for the first, when in reality he may not have been.

I have a hard time giving the QB grief for coming off an initial read that looked to be a dead end, particularly when that QB is among the best I've ever seen at making chicken salad.

 

There's a better description of it with a pic posted by Einstein earlier in the thread.

(Trying this link that might take you directly to the post)

 

This also makes sense on that, and went back and rewatched the play and I can see where you are coming from with this and quite possibly this is the likely reason he came off the read.  At the time it looks like Allen does come off the read,  its hard to see that TE is gonna come open.  And I agree, hard to fault Allen there on a 4th down to come off a read that looks like it won't be there when you must make a play.  And in that case, that only further makes his INT the correct decision.

 

What has blown my mind is that every person talking about this game on TV has not once referenced that INT was on 4th down and it was a net positive play and in fact the mistake was NOT the INT thrown, but Miami's mistake of actually catching it and taking a big net loss on field position.  Instead they just say it was a god awful throw and bone head move by Allen which tells me they don't really know what they are talking about (something we always knew anyway) most the time, don't bother to even watch the post game interviews where Allen literally said that is why he heaved it too so to both give us a chance at either a TD or better field position if someone intercepts it.  

 

So good post, I think you are correct about your breakdown of the first part of that play 

Edited January 8 by Alphadawg7

[Simon]

8 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

This also makes sense on that, and went back and rewatched the play and I can see where you are coming from with this and quite possibly this is the likely reason he came off the read.  At the time it looks like Allen does its hard to see that TE is gonna come open.  And I agree hard to fault Allen there on a 4th down to come off a read that looks like it won't be there when you must make a play.  And in that case, that only further makes his INT the correct decision.

 

What has blown my mind is that every person talking about this game on TV has not once referenced that INT was on 4th down and it was a net positive play and in fact the mistake was NOT the INT thrown, but Miami's mistake of actually catching it and taking a big net loss on field position.  Instead they just say it was a god awful throw and bone head move by Allen which tells me they don't really know what they are talking about (something we always knew anyway) most the time, don't bother to even watch the post game interviews where Allen literally said that is why he heaved it too so to both give us a chance at either a TD or better field position if someone intercepts it.  

 

So good post, I think you are correct about your breakdown of the first part of that play 

 

So if we assume that Allen did not make the wrong play on that pick.

And that Gabe Davis made another mistake on the other pick.

And that Torrence made the mistake that caused the fumble.

We are down to the only bad mistake Allen really made all night was missing the deep shot to Diggs.

And yet there are knuckleheads running around here yelling about how awful he was, how we should trade/bench him, he's his own worst enemy, etc.

I swear as soon as I'm not the janitor, I'm going to put 647 people on ignore and only read about 75 posters. 

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, Simon said:

 

So if we assume that Allen did not make the wrong play on that pick.

And that Gabe Davis made another mistake on the other pick.

And that Torrence made the mistake that caused the fumble.

We are down to the only bad mistake Allen really made all night was missing the deep shot to Diggs.

And yet there are knuckleheads running around here yelling about how awful he was, how we should trade/bench him, he's his own worst enemy, etc.

I swear as soon as I'm not the janitor, I'm going to put 647 people on ignore and only read about 75 posters. 

 

Bahahaha I feel you, the stupidity of some of the comments on Allen by "fans" is from a contingent that doesn't seem to know much about football.  

 

I do really think Gabe made the mistake, even his break wasn't crisp or urgent, almost like he didn't know where to go.  Allen clearly expected him to turn around and sit on the route or comeback.  Easy TD if Gabe does and I would have won $1280 on my props parlay, so real pissed at Davis.  

 

But the most telling thing for me, and I believe @Einsteinposted it as its own thread, is that nearly 40% of Allens INT's the past 2 seasons are on throws to Davis.  There is something definitely not quite right in their communication, and given it happens at a much much higher clip with Davis than any other one individual, its hard not to think its more Davis than Allen.

 

And Allen threw that before Davis made the break...again.  So clearly Allen felt he was gonna do something different again.  So I am kind of hoping we get to see the offense this next week without Davis as it was a night and day difference yesterday when he left the game.  

[Simon]

When they made the switch at OC and we all did our what changes we want to see thing, my #2 was to limit option routes by not running any to Davis and only allowing Diggs and Kincaid to make reads and adjustments on the fly. The miscommunications have been going on for at least two years and I cannot count the number of drives that have been killed by them not being on the same page on 3rd down. It's amazing I still have a full head of hair that hasn't been torn out.

Gabe had that little shlt bullied halfway through the endzone and you're right that all he has to do is turn around and put his ass into him and it's 6.

Sorry about the missed payday; sounds like a nice chunk that could have gone toward a Bills SB ticket.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Bahahaha I feel you, the stupidity of some of the comments on Allen by "fans" is from a contingent that doesn't seem to know much about football.  

 

I do really think Gabe made the mistake, even his break wasn't crisp or urgent, almost like he didn't know where to go.  Allen clearly expected him to turn around and sit on the route or comeback.  Easy TD if Gabe does and I would have won $1280 on my props parlay, so real pissed at Davis.  

 

But the most telling thing for me, and I believe @Einsteinposted it as its own thread, is that nearly 40% of Allens INT's the past 2 seasons are on throws to Davis.  There is something definitely not quite right in their communication, and given it happens at a much much higher clip with Davis than any other one individual, its hard not to think its more Davis than Allen.

 

And Allen threw that before Davis made the break...again.  So clearly Allen felt he was gonna do something different again.  So I am kind of hoping we get to see the offense this next week without Davis as it was a night and day difference yesterday when he left the game.  

 

If paused at 24 seconds looks like Allen throw and the defender all over Gabe. Not sure if Davis saw Allen throwing the ball. I'm not sure if Davis saw the ball coming possibly? 

 

Could be on neither people. Defender hate to say it Apple made a great play.

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[CincyBillsFan]

26 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

So if we assume that Allen did not make the wrong play on that pick.

And that Gabe Davis made another mistake on the other pick.

And that Torrence made the mistake that caused the fumble.

We are down to the only bad mistake Allen really made all night was missing the deep shot to Diggs.

And yet there are knuckleheads running around here yelling about how awful he was, how we should trade/bench him, he's his own worst enemy, etc.

I swear as soon as I'm not the janitor, I'm going to put 647 people on ignore and only read about 75 posters. 

That's where I netted out. 

 

*  The strip sack fumble would have been a fumble for almost every QB in the league given how fast that DT got in on Allen.

 

*  The 1st INT may be filed under "nobody's fault" as it was a case of the WR zigging when the QB thought he would zag.  And had the refs thrown the flag on the previous plays clear PI then that first INT never happens.

 

*  The 2nd INT didn't take points off the board nor did it hand the Finns good field position.  Allen made a choice clearly to go away from his first read and then rather then take a sack on 4th down (something I've seen a lot of QB's do) he threw up a 50/50 ball to the end zone.

 

Missing Diggs was the really bad mistake Allen made that was all on him.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

That's where I netted out. 

 

*  The strip sack fumble would have been a fumble for almost every QB in the league given how fast that DT got in on Allen.

 

*  The 1st INT may be filed under "nobody's fault" as it was a case of the WR zigging when the QB thought he would zag.  And had the refs thrown the flag on the previous plays clear PI then that first INT never happens.

 

*  The 2nd INT didn't take points off the board nor did it hand the Finns good field position.  Allen made a choice clearly to go away from his first read and then rather then take a sack on 4th down (something I've seen a lot of QB's do) he threw up a 50/50 ball to the end zone.

 

Missing Diggs was the really bad mistake Allen made that was all on him.

 

I think Davis lost sight cause defender all over him.  Allen throw the ball when Davis possibly not looking or Apple was all over him, lost tracked.. Might be just a great play by defender. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

He's the modern day Brett Favre, he's going to make you kick your cat and throw your TV out the window on 1 series and on the next jump out of your seat doing the "we're not worthy chant" . Love the gun slinger mentality when it works and hate it when it doesn't but we wouldn't even be in this position without him that I'm 100% certain of. There is no use wishing he'd stop the stupid turnovers, it's going to happen since it's part of his DNA so you just have to take the good with the bad and hope we can sit back and ride it all the way to a SB victory.

[Meatloaf63]

20 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I don’t think he even was. 

 

- First INT to Gabe was a clear as day option route for the WR and Gabe/Josh were not on. the same page. Maybe Josh should have turfed it or threw it away, but that’s not hero ball.

 

- The second INT is a TD if Gabe doesn’t trip. Everyone points to Knox being open on the other side but I give that 50% odds we don’t convert it.

 

Josh against the Jets was hero ball. I didn’t feel hero ball from Josh tonight.

 

The second is intercepted even if Gabe doesn’t trip. He had Kincaid open for a long gain if he would have taken it.

[LarryMadman]

17 hours ago, Simon said:

 

So if we assume that Allen did not make the wrong play on that pick.

And that Gabe Davis made another mistake on the other pick.

And that Torrence made the mistake that caused the fumble.

We are down to the only bad mistake Allen really made all night was missing the deep shot to Diggs.

And yet there are knuckleheads running around here yelling about how awful he was, how we should trade/bench him, he's his own worst enemy, etc.

I swear as soon as I'm not the janitor, I'm going to put 647 people on ignore and only read about 75 posters. 

Yup, totally agree.

 

Another thing most seem to not realize is how Brady and Allen, the whole offense really are doing the best they can with Dorseys playbook. I really believe they are hamstrung by Dorseys bad play designs and it totally affects their ability. Unlike other teams play designs our offense play designs look so cumbersome, boring, inefficient and flat difficult to be successful at. I believe Josh has to be superhuman for Dorseys play designs to work. I don't think people get that. 

[DapperCam]

15 hours ago, Meatloaf63 said:

The second is intercepted even if Gabe doesn’t trip. He had Kincaid open for a long gain if he would have taken it.

Shakir took out two defenders which would have allowed a big gain by Kincaid. But when Allen would have made the throw that hadn’t happened yet, so he would have no way of knowing that.

 

If Shakir doesn’t take out the defender, he very well may have stopped Kincaid short of the sticks.

 

It’s not like he looked at some wide open receiver and passed him up. It was a judgement call.

[CincyBillsFan]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:41 PM, UKBillFan said:

I was reading an article on Jacksonville's defeat (posted on the Jaguars at Titans game thread), and two comments were picked up - from their Josh Allen and Pederson.

 

Allen talked about the difference being that this Jaguars’ team lacked a certain fire, determination and desire. They kept waiting for a spark and “it never got lit.” 

 

Pederson took Allen’s point another step further, pointedly adding: “I think that’s accurate. But the thing is, you can’t sit around and wait for a spark. You got to be the spark right? That’s either me being it, or Josh being it, or Trevor being it or something when that other team catches fire.” 

 

I know I was critical earlier but we all know who is the spark for the Bills in that situation.

Also the Jags/Titans game served to remind Bills fans that actually watch other NFL games that hitting long throws to wide open WR's is not easy and these passes are often missed.

 

 

4 hours ago, LarryMadman said:

Yup, totally agree.

 

Another thing most seem to not realize is how Brady and Allen, the whole offense really are doing the best they can with Dorseys playbook. I really believe they are hamstrung by Dorseys bad play designs and it totally affects their ability. Unlike other teams play designs our offense play designs look so cumbersome, boring, inefficient and flat difficult to be successful at. I believe Josh has to be superhuman for Dorseys play designs to work. I don't think people get that. 

This is a great point.  You can't just install a whole new offense during the season.  We won't get a true read on Brady until next season after he's had the off season and preseason to implement his offense.

 

 

[Scott7975]

On 1/7/2024 at 11:57 PM, Royale with Cheese said:

There isn’t any Allen haters lol.

”Allen hasn’t been playing well.”

”You’re a hater!”

 

 

There is but its only a few.

[Meatloaf63]

5 hours ago, DapperCam said:

Shakir took out two defenders which would have allowed a big gain by Kincaid. But when Allen would have made the throw that hadn’t happened yet, so he would have no way of knowing that.

 

If Shakir doesn’t take out the defender, he very well may have stopped Kincaid short of the sticks.

 

It’s not like he looked at some wide open receiver and passed him up. It was a judgement call.

I’m not sure who the receiver was who was crossing late, but he was open as Allen threw the ball and was the better choice.

[cgang]

I am resigned to taking the Allen train where it leads… it could be the ‘ole 97 or the Moses express to the promised land (and really nothing in between).  Going to get my heart medication to prep for the game this week!  

[BigDingus]

I've long credited Allen for his amazing work ethic & dramatic improvement from raw rookie to MVP runner-up. He's my favorite player in the league, and I want to see him silence the REAL haters.

 

But I'm not going to be afraid to voice valid criticism because some goober online calls me a "hater" for simply discussing real issues.

 

***********

 

I'm a huge data-guy. Stats aren't everything, but I like looking over numbers & seeing trends. But if you cover data that in any way discusses stats that could even remotely suggest something negative about Josh, people often get overly upset and throw logic out the window.

 

If not for reviewing data & discussing on this board, I wouldn't have realized that Josh throwing only 1 INT per game almost has no affect on our our W/L record, and it's only when he has 2+ turnovers that our W/L record plummets (though recent weeks have boosted that percentage).

 

Recently, I was trying to dream up ways the Bills could win the SB even if they play sloppy. So went through the last 20 x SB games & broke down some stats. I didn't even share anything on the board, as I figured certain people would take it as some Allen insult, when in reality I was genuinely looking for a silver-lining.

 

If I posted "in the last 20 years, only 4 teams have won the SB while losing the turnover battle (and 2 of those times were lead by Brady)," I'd be called a troll or Allen hater.

 

***********

 

TL;DR - Don't be so quick to label people "Allen haters," especially fellow Bills fans who want nothing more than to see him succeed. We're all just dudes who love the Bills & want someone to celebrate/commiserate with 😅

[Scott7975]

On 1/8/2024 at 1:27 AM, HappyDays said:

 

No routes were in the endzone though. I honestly think Johnson was the designed read and Josh thought he had enough leverage to sneak past the goalline. Instead he got stopped in his tracks (by an illegal hit).

 

If Josh wasn't supposed to throw that pass then they might as well have just kicked the FG on 3rd down. Because every throw he could have made there would have been completed short of the endzone.

 

It absolutely was designed to go to the rb. You can watch the all 22 on it. Its clear as day.

[Scott7975]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:06 AM, Simon said:

 

I didn't agree with folks who wanted a flag there.

I don't want to see this league start calling penalties on two guys getting after it at the goalline, or at the sticks for that matter.

 

I disagree. That penalty is there for a reason.  To keep players from getting concussion.  No surprise, Ty has a concussion.  You want to talk about ticky tack holding or PI calls, Im there with you all day as long as they are calling it equal, but head hunting I do not.  Its a player safety issue.  That dude is 100% getting a fine.

[Dr. Who]