MrEpsYtown Posted January 5 Posted January 5 4 hours ago, Rigotz said: Here's an idea... How about comparing Dalton Kincaid to other Rookie Tight Ends, as it's one of the slowest developing positions. Dalton Kincaid: 66 Receptions, 589 yards, 2 TD Travis Kelce (didn't play rookie season): 2nd year -- 67 receptions, 862 yards, 5 TD George Kittle Rookie: 43 receptions, 515 yards, 2 TD Mark Andrews Rookie: 34 Receptions, 552 yards, 3 TD TJ Hockenson Rookie: 32 Receptions, 367 yards, 2 TD David Njoku Rookie: 32 Receptions, 386 yards, 4TD Zach Ertz Rookie: 36 Receptions, 469 yards, 4TD Jason Witten Rookie: 35 Receptions, 347 yards, 1TD Antonio Gates Rookie: 24 Receptions, 389 yards, 2TD Nice work! My comp is Aaron Hernandez and he had 45 receptions, 563 yards, and 6 TDs playing with the goat QB. 12.5 yards per reception, but that is skewed by his YAC ability. Kincaid is currently at 8.9 Y/R. The difference is in red zone production. Kincaid's year is very impressive imo. That same year Gronk had 42 receptions for 546 yards and 10 TDs. The TD productivity is much higher for the NE guys but again rookie TE production is tough to come by. They also played with Tom Brady who was a 11-year vet at that point. Kincaid is doing really good things and he will be fine. 3 1 Quote
Danger Mouse Posted January 6 Posted January 6 I’ve just been reading about Dalton potentially breaking metzelaar’s record on the main site. Incredible. It’s been a season of records being smashed and yet feels like an absolute disaster for so much of it. never change, Buffalo Quote
JerseyBills Posted January 6 Posted January 6 great points but I think we'll see alot more games like last week - 4/87 21.7 per catch , mainly because 51 yard reception but expect more receptions like that 1 Quote
aceman_16 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 On 1/3/2024 at 2:12 PM, ngbills said: This is likely going to ruffle some feathers around here. Every year there are guys stats that overstate their performance. I think that is year it is Kincaid. This is less about his ability and more how he was used most of the season. This past game we finally saw him going downfield where he should be. He is not Cole Beasley who will catch and pass and quickly turn up field for the extra yards squeezing through guys, he is not a monster TE that will catch a pass and run guys over for 5 yards. Yet he was primarily used in that capacity racking up easy catches but limited yards or impact. Below are some comps from the other starting TE's around the league. Yards per rec Kincaid 8.9 Kittle 15.7 tops amongst TE's Most starters are in the 10-11 range TD Kincaid 2 LaPorta is top at 9 Many others have 5-6. Kincaid at the low end with 2 1st Downs Kincaid 26 Kelce 51 tops amongst TE's Most with similar rec numbers are in the 30's and 40's. Kincaid is low end. Average Depth of Target Kincaid 5.8 yards Pitts is tops at 11.4 yards; Kittle is at 9.4 yards Most are in the 6-7 range, though some in the 5's with Kincaid at the low end. Yards after Catch Kincaid 4.3 yards Kittle and Njoku at 7.4 yards are tops Many are in the 4-6 range with Kincaid at the low end. Broken Tackles Kincaid 3 McBride is at 10 and Njoku and LaPorta are at 9 Many other from 2-7 range. Kincaid at low end. This is not a Kincaid sucks post. This is a they are confused in how to use him post and lets not celebrate his # of rec's stats. He is not a throw it to and watch him run over or around guys like he is being used. He is a tall lanky TE that should be going down the same and catching contested passes. Most NFL caliber players could replicate Kincaid catches or they would be out the league. He can and should do more and I want to see that from him...like we saw some of last week. I am happy he broke some reception records blah blah, but lest see them cut him loose. Compare him to other rookie TEs.....that is a more apt comparison. It is widely known that rookie TEs have a steep learning curve. 1 Quote
DapperCam Posted January 6 Posted January 6 This feels more like coaching and scheme vs anything to do with Kincaid. For whatever reason his role has been sort of a dump off safety valve for Allen. His hands have been very good, and his separation has looked good as well. He passes the eye test for me to potentially be a top-5 receiving TE in the league (not sure about his blocking, maybe that is what has limited his involvement in the offense). IMO he should have 10 targets per game, but that is just me. Quote
machine gun kelly Posted January 6 Posted January 6 On 1/3/2024 at 2:12 PM, ngbills said: This is likely going to ruffle some feathers around here. Every year there are guys stats that overstate their performance. I think that is year it is Kincaid. This is less about his ability and more how he was used most of the season. This past game we finally saw him going downfield where he should be. He is not Cole Beasley who will catch and pass and quickly turn up field for the extra yards squeezing through guys, he is not a monster TE that will catch a pass and run guys over for 5 yards. Yet he was primarily used in that capacity racking up easy catches but limited yards or impact. Below are some comps from the other starting TE's around the league. Yards per rec Kincaid 8.9 Kittle 15.7 tops amongst TE's Most starters are in the 10-11 range TD Kincaid 2 LaPorta is top at 9 Many others have 5-6. Kincaid at the low end with 2 1st Downs Kincaid 26 Kelce 51 tops amongst TE's Most with similar rec numbers are in the 30's and 40's. Kincaid is low end. Average Depth of Target Kincaid 5.8 yards Pitts is tops at 11.4 yards; Kittle is at 9.4 yards Most are in the 6-7 range, though some in the 5's with Kincaid at the low end. Yards after Catch Kincaid 4.3 yards Kittle and Njoku at 7.4 yards are tops Many are in the 4-6 range with Kincaid at the low end. Broken Tackles Kincaid 3 McBride is at 10 and Njoku and LaPorta are at 9 Many other from 2-7 range. Kincaid at low end. This is not a Kincaid sucks post. This is a they are confused in how to use him post and lets not celebrate his # of rec's stats. He is not a throw it to and watch him run over or around guys like he is being used. He is a tall lanky TE that should be going down the same and catching contested passes. Most NFL caliber players could replicate Kincaid catches or they would be out the league. He can and should do more and I want to see that from him...like we saw some of last week. I am happy he broke some reception records blah blah, but lest see them cut him loose. NG, he’s a rookie. Most TE’s don’t come out if the gate fast, and there’s only one ball. The first half of the year, Diggs was getting the bulk of the throws. The last four weeks Kinkaid and Knox are sharing receptions. We’ve also had our running game take off. Maybe you’ve played or coached football, but stats lie. Quote
Billl Posted January 6 Posted January 6 23 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said: Nice work! My comp is Aaron Hernandez and he had 45 receptions, 563 yards, and 6 TDs playing with the goat QB. 12.5 yards per reception, but that is skewed by his YAC ability. Kincaid is currently at 8.9 Y/R. The difference is in red zone production. Kincaid's year is very impressive imo. That same year Gronk had 42 receptions for 546 yards and 10 TDs. The TD productivity is much higher for the NE guys but again rookie TE production is tough to come by. They also played with Tom Brady who was a 11-year vet at that point. Kincaid is doing really good things and he will be fine. Aaron Hernandez was also only 20 years old when he entered the league. When he played his final game in the NFL, he was six months younger than Kincaid was when he played his FIRST game. 1 Quote
Bobby Hooks Posted January 6 Posted January 6 (edited) On 1/5/2024 at 10:05 AM, Rigotz said: Here's an idea... How about comparing Dalton Kincaid to other Rookie Tight Ends, as it's one of the slowest developing positions. Dalton Kincaid: 66 Receptions, 589 yards, 2 TD Travis Kelce (didn't play rookie season): 2nd year -- 67 receptions, 862 yards, 5 TD George Kittle Rookie: 43 receptions, 515 yards, 2 TD Mark Andrews Rookie: 34 Receptions, 552 yards, 3 TD TJ Hockenson Rookie: 32 Receptions, 367 yards, 2 TD David Njoku Rookie: 32 Receptions, 386 yards, 4TD Zach Ertz Rookie: 36 Receptions, 469 yards, 4TD Jason Witten Rookie: 35 Receptions, 347 yards, 1TD Antonio Gates Rookie: 24 Receptions, 389 yards, 2TD Nice! Thanks for doing the leg work. This is awesome to see. So… more yards and receptions than all of them except Kelce who was in his second year. Looks pretty dazzling to me! Edited January 6 by Bobby Hooks 1 Quote
folz Posted January 6 Posted January 6 23 hours ago, ngbills said: He is actually in the middle to bottom in nearly all metrics. That is the difference. Not that he is not the best yet. He is being used in the most conservative way possible and has way less flash or impactful plays than other teams TE's. You said, truth is he is a promising rookie - I am on board with that. I am not on board with the he is already elite talk. There is a ton of pushing on how amazing of a season he had and I just feel there are many players that given the opportunity could replicate his numbers. Not his fault that the Bills made him a safety valve and he did what many would do with that role. If he was turning all those dump offs into 50 yards then we should be talking about how elite he is. I honestly have not heard anyone say that Kincaid is already elite. I think we all hope he can get there, but no one is saying his rookie season was on par with a veteran Kelce or Kittle season, etc. You are the one who brought up those comparisons. He broke a Bills record and people celebrated it. That's it. First of all, it's just a Bills record, not an NFL record; and secondly, we all understand that a lot of his receptions were possession receiver type receptions. Just because people congratulated him on the record, or are positive about his future, doesn't mean they think he is already elite. Also, we are Bills fans, shouldn't we be happy when one of our players accomplishes something? Even if it's not really a huge deal. Why is it these days that if you say something positive about a Bills player, there is horde of posters who will jump in to tell you that no, in fact, that player sucks or isn't living up to his draft status. Plus, the impatience of current NFL fans is frustrating. When I first started watching football, very few rookies even started their rookie years (outside of a few QBs and RBs maybe). A lot of players used to sit and learn for two or three years before they got their shot. I understand that it is a different league now, but there is still a learning curve for college players coming into the league. Just because many rookies start now and maybe 5-10 have excellent rookie years, doesn't mean that every guy should be able to come in and go off his first season. Plus a lot of that has to do with coaching. We know that Sean would rather not throw guys in right away, but work them in slowly, etc. When did people start expecting every first or second day pick to automatically be an All-Pro their rookie year? It is still an extremely rare thing (like 1-2 guys per year out of 250 draft selections and how many undrafted guys). Give Dalton time. He is having a very nice (not elite) rookie year and he will only get better. DK is just not a problem with this team right now. Also, you mentioned about splash plays in one of your posts (specifically saying he's not getting TDs or first downs). Yes, he only has 2 TDs on the year, but 26 of his 66 receptions have gone for first downs. That's closing in on 2 per game (and 40% of his receptions). That is obviously impactful for the team, even if he isn't catching 40 yard passes down the seam yet (though he did have a 51-yard post reception last game). Quote
VW82 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 (edited) I did only a quick browse through the thread and so may have missed it but has anyone tracked how many of Kincaid's snaps and catches were two TE sets or with Kincaid split out in the slot? I feel like the 11.5 personnel thing might be a failure at this point even though it's incredibly early for that. If so, the people who criticized the pick might end up being right even if Kincaid turns out to be really good (I think he will) given Knox is locked up. This goes to the point about how he's been used and his lackluster YAC and YPC. Edited January 6 by VW82 Quote
pennstate10 Posted January 6 Posted January 6 On 1/3/2024 at 3:09 PM, Alphadawg7 said: Have you ever had any take in any thread on this board that wasn't coming from a negative view point? The moment I see a thread that doesn't directly have a negative tone, I know with 100% certainty 2 people are gonna use the roll eyes or laugh emoticon to it...you and @Airseven. Its as sure as the rising and setting of the sun. First...You don't draft anyone over what their ROOKIE year might yield. You know Kincaid is here at least for 4-5 years right? What he does or doesn't do as a rookie does NOT indicate whether he was a worthy first round pick as his career spans more than his rookie year. Second, why are you even attempting to mention Flowers or Nacua when neither were options when the Bills were on the clock and took Kincaid. Flowers was drafted BEFORE our pick, so couldn't have taken him. Nacua? I guarantee you had never heard of him until his week 1 game with the Rams and you put in your free agent bid in fantasy to get him. So lets not pretend Nacua had any shot for any team to take him in the first round, he was a 5th round pick. You know like Shakir...a guy I am pretty sure I have seen you dump on and be negative about because he was a "5th round pick". Bottom line is simple...Kincaid has the talent, but opportunities here are limited by his role and usage. Plug Kincaid into the Lions offense and he has the same kind of season, maybe better, than LaPorta. He will be a legit weapon for years to come and has the potential to be special or elite. For the record, I don't disagree that we need a better WR2 as Davis isn't it. But that doesn't make the Kincaid pick a bad pick either. Everyone loves LaPorta. LaPorta averages 4.2 YAC per reception. Kincaid averages 4.3. And for those reminiscing about the great Cole Beasley, his last full year in Bflo he averaged 3.7. 1 Quote
Doc Brown Posted January 6 Posted January 6 On 1/3/2024 at 2:26 PM, KDIGGZ said: Should we revisit the TE stats thread where a good number of you said he was going to have 1,000 yards receiving and 10 TD's? Nobody drafts a TE high in the first round because they don't provide bang for your buck. It's not a position of value. A good rookie TE season was always going to be roughly what Kincaid has given us which is nothing to write home about compared to a great #2 receiver (Flowers, Nacua). The biggest concern most fans had with the drafting of Kincaid was Dorsey wouldn't be able to use him correctly which turned out to be true. I doubt we'd have had any more success with a rookie WR under him. Sam Laporta proves with a good coordinator a rookie TE can be productive and Kincaid was even more pro ready than him so his numbers would pry be even better if he was drafted by the Lions. I expect Kincaid to be the best TE in football over the next decade. Quote
Dopey Posted January 7 Posted January 7 19 hours ago, Billl said: Aaron Hernandez was also only 20 years old when he entered the league. When he played his final game in the NFL, he was six months younger than Kincaid was when he played his FIRST game. So we have a mature player at tight end as a rookie. Cool. Quote
NewEra Posted January 7 Posted January 7 19 hours ago, Billl said: Aaron Hernandez was also only 20 years old when he entered the league. When he played his final game in the NFL, he was six months younger than Kincaid was when he played his FIRST game. My comp is Travis Kelce- both 24 years old their rookie season. Age 24- Kincaid had 66 catches while Kelce had 0 plus microfracture surgery. 2 Quote
Saint Doug Posted January 7 Posted January 7 20 hours ago, aceman_16 said: Compare him to other rookie TEs.....that is a more apt comparison. It is widely known that rookie TEs have a steep learning curve. Agreed. It was kind of odd to be comparing a rookie’s numbers to future Hall of Famers in their prime. That’s not even apples to oranges. More like apples to eggs. Quote
GunnerBill Posted January 8 Posted January 8 His 84 yards last night makes it the TENTH best rookie Tight End season of all time. 2 Quote
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