BADOLBILZ Posted January 3 Posted January 3 17 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said: Yeah, Gabe gets more. I think that is going to be a crazy market. Not a lot out there so I think young guys like Gabe and Micahel Pittman are going to get seriously overpaid. I would *guess* Samuel gets 3 years $35M or so from a desperate team with a young QB to break-in. He's a better, more versatile player than Cole Beasley was after 2018(4 years $29M) and the value of WR's has increased greater than the salary cap since that time. So I don't think he gets south of $11M aav. That probably pushes him out of the Bills range. Ugly free agent class. 1 Quote
frostbitmic Posted January 3 Posted January 3 17 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: look at the second half of the season—his decline is represented well right there. Fully have of his yards came in 5 games—all before Oct 22. Dorsey used him better Quote
GunnerBill Posted January 3 Posted January 3 24 minutes ago, Beck Water said: To your point: Diggs appeared on the Bills injury report Week 10 with an injury "back" after a collision with a security guard when he ran OOB Wk 9. In a rare move for him, he was limited in practice all that week. Gardner decided to pick him up and supplex him after the whistle Wk 11. He was penalized and fined 10k, to which he responded ambiguously "pain" I don't think one has to be a tin-hat conspiracy theorist to think that maybe Gardner knew Diggs had been on the injury report for a back injury the previous week, and maybe causing him some "pain" could aggravate it and knock him out. It's a fact that teams follow their opponents injury report and players go after known injured body parts with extra vigor. It's also a fact that Diggs big drop in productivity followed his Week 9, 6 reception on 7 target 86 yd game against Cincy - after which he showed up on the injury report. @Beck Water you have been around here long enough to know that facts and research are not appreciated! 3 Quote
Aussie Joe Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 hour ago, vtnatefootball11 said: Why the heck not? They damn well better move up if that's what takes to get one of the consensus top 5-6 receivers (assuming they like the guy). There certainly won't be 6 receivers taken in the top 15. If it can be had without costing a first round pick in 2025, it's an absolute must no hesitation. How far do you want to move up …and what are you giving up? We have seen the last two years that a fourth round pick moves you up two spots in he 20s.. 1 Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: Exactly. There is ample precedent for players, after the season, to report on actual surgery-requiring injuries (Hughes) or that the injury reported bluntly as "ribs" was actually multiple broken bones (Fitzpatrick, Beasley). These may or may not have appeared on the injury report, and if they did appear on the injury report, they may have disappeared more promptly than the typical course of healing for such an injury would suggest. I believe you're one of the guys who has pointed out that Diggs gets assaulted on almost every play. Opponents "accidentally" kick or knee or elbow his head, often while he's down, with no repercussions from the ref. It's why on some "mic'd up" segments you can see other players racing over after he's tackled yelling as they go "HEY HEY HEY HEY I'M HERE I'M HERE I'M HERE!" (Davis in one mic'd up segment). We all saw "Sauce" Gardner viciously supplex Diggs during the Nov. 19 Jets game. It's not hard to believe that at the least, that caused a massive contusion, even if the team (and Diggs) don't consider it significant enough to report. I get what you are saying, but honestly this is all a stretch I am seeing here in your theory. In a handful of posts now, you have essentially claimed that Diggs is hurt and hiding it, other players viciously attacked Diggs with the intent of injury, etc etc. Bottom line is all players have some degree of injury or pain management at this point in the year. Your examples of Beasley and his ribs for example, those were never a secret. That was known before, during, and after the game that he was gonna play through the injury. Watch Diggs play, there does not appear to be any indication on the field of being limited in anyway. What I have seen is Diggs get separation and beat his man just to find Josh under duress in the pocket and throwing in a forced manner and not getting the ball accurately to Diggs in many games now. Would anyone be talking about this if Allen didn't miss bad in the NE game when Diggs had several yards on his defender for a sure long bomb TD? Gabe Davis had like 3 games in 4 with 0 catches. Is he hurt too? There is just too much conspiracy theory going on here without any supporting evidence of any kind. Not to mention, Diggs has in previous seasons, including last year, started the season off with gaudy stats and cooled down the back half when the offensive passing game wasn't as efficient. Then there is the fact that Gabe Davis scares no one with the majority of his career games he has 3 catches or less and defenses can key in on Diggs doubling and even tripling him at times. There is also a significant increase in our teams rush attempts since Brady took over limiting the pass targets as a whole. We won a game this year against Dallas where Josh only attempted 15 passes, completing 7. This week against NE Josh only completed 50% of his passes, several of which were off target throws to open guys including Diggs. So no disrespect, but this pattern of production is one we have seen with Diggs during his time in Buffalo in past seasons and there are no signs of any kind of Diggs being limited out there. I mean when he catches the ball he is juking, cutting, dodging like he is Deebo Samuel out there. They even ran Diggs as a RB this week, not something they would do if he was playing an injury limiting his play outside of normal wear and tear. Many players get surgeries in the offseason for things that they were capable of playing through during the season to either speed up recovery or just recover better. So those past examples don't really imply that Diggs has something significantly wrong with him. When Josh Allen starts accurately delivering the ball to Diggs and he fails to make the plays or can't get to the ball from some limitation, then there is something to talk about. But right now, I am watching Diggs get open and Allen just not find him or not accurately connect, often because he is running for his life and throwing under duress...but sometimes, Josh has just flat out thrown poor balls. Quote
Mr. WEO Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: That's meathead speak. I thought you were in the medical field. Usually you hurt because something in that area is injured. There are varying degrees of the same injury, no? You can also be injured but not "hurt". Thurman Thomas played his entire NFL career with a full torn knee tendon. oy 1 hour ago, Beck Water said: To your point: Diggs appeared on the Bills injury report Week 10 with an injury "back" after a collision with a security guard when he ran OOB Wk 9. In a rare move for him, he was limited in practice all that week. Gardner decided to pick him up and supplex him after the whistle Wk 11. He was penalized and fined 10k, to which he responded ambiguously "pain" I don't think one has to be a tin-hat conspiracy theorist to think that maybe Gardner knew Diggs had been on the injury report for a back injury the previous week, and maybe causing him some "pain" could aggravate it and knock him out. It's a fact that teams follow their opponents injury report and players go after known injured body parts with extra vigor. It's also a fact that Diggs big drop in productivity followed his Week 9, 6 reception on 7 target 86 yd game against Cincy - after which he showed up on the injury report. when did Diggs last show up on the injury report and when was his last suplex. Also, if it common knowledge that Diggs is playing with a back injury, what is the competitive advantage of McD insisting that he knows of no medical reason for Diggs's dropoff? Quote
vtnatefootball11 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aussie Joe said: How far do you want to move up …and what are you giving up? We have seen the last two years that a fourth round pick moves you up two spots in he 20s.. Whatever it takes outsider of a 1st rounder if there is a receiver we have a first round/starting caliber grade on sitting there in the early 20s. Hopefully not a 2nd, more likely a 3rd, or 3rd and 5th for example, depending on where we pick, but if necessary to give up a 2nd and another pick I'm fine with it. Think about the cost of going into 2024 without a #2 receiver? That is a scary thought. We could not need a high end rookie WR more, we are truly banking on it. What we don't have is enough money to overpay a starting caliber receiver in free agency. Has to come through draft. We have seen numerous examples of starting caliber or even great WRs being drafted in the early 20s. The cost is not too prohibitive to move up there, even from 32. We need to do it, period. Edited January 3 by vtnatefootball11 Quote
Aussie Joe Posted January 3 Posted January 3 9 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said: Whatever it takes outsider of a 1st rounder if there is a receiver we have a first round/starting caliber grade on sitting there in the early 20s. Hopefully not a 2nd, more likely a 3rd, or 3rd and 5th for example, depending on where we pick, but if necessary to give up a 2nd and another pick I'm fine with it. Think about the cost of going into 2024 without a #2 receiver? That is a scary thought. We could not need a high end rookie WR more, we are truly banking on it. What we don't have is enough money to overpay a starting caliber receiver in free agency. Has to come through draft. We have seen numerous examples of starting caliber or even great WRs being drafted in the early 20s. The cost is not too prohibitive to move up there, even from 32. We need to do it, period. I want the best result possible… The Bills bottom of the third pick probably gets you up from 25 to 20 or 21… The addition of a fifth is pretty close to meaningless in this situation … If that’s makes a difference then go for it… i would probably rather double dip though and use the third to pick another receiver Quote
vtnatefootball11 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, Aussie Joe said: I want the best result possible… The Bills bottom of the third pick probably gets you up from 25 to 20 or 21… The addition of a fifth is pretty close to meaningless in this situation … If that’s makes a difference then go for it… i would probably rather double dip though and use the third to pick another receiver The 3rd and 5th was just an example, whatever it takes to get a high end/starting caliber rookie WR (outside of giving up a 1st), you do it. We have to , we don't have a choice. If you are double dipping then you aren't trading up in the first round, and as you said earlier that means there likely won't be one of the top tier rookie WRs left, so you are getting two long shots rather than 1 bonafide prospect. If we just needed depth, then yeah sure, but we desperately need another starting WR next year and can't afford one through free agency. We can't afford to sit back and miss out. Edited January 3 by vtnatefootball11 Quote
Aussie Joe Posted January 3 Posted January 3 2 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said: The 3rd and 5th was just an example, whatever it takes to get a high end/starting caliber rookie WR (outside of giving up a 1st), you do it. We have to , we don't have a choice. If you are double dipping then you aren't trading up in the first round, and as you said earlier that means there likely won't be one of the top tier rookie WRs left, so you are getting two long shots rather than 1 bonafide prospect. If we just needed depth, then yeah sure, but we desperately need another starting WR next year and can't afford one through free agency. We can't afford to sit back and miss out. I don’t think they are giving up a second … I’ll be surprised if they do it … particularly in 2024 where the money for FA is pretty dry Quote
vtnatefootball11 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 minute ago, Aussie Joe said: I don’t think they are giving up a second … I’ll be surprised if they do it … particularly in 2024 where the money for FA is pretty dry So what is your solution to #2 WR then if we don't give up a 2nd or whatever it takes to move up and secure a top group rookie WR? Free agency WR is not an option for us, at least not anyone that is truly a weapon/good WR#2. Quote
Aussie Joe Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 10 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said: So what is your solution to #2 WR then if we don't give up a 2nd or whatever it takes to move up and secure a top group rookie WR? Free agency WR is not an option for us, at least not anyone that is truly a weapon/good WR#2. Well… Firstly I’m trying to predict what Beane will do and what will actually happen rather then what I would do which is meaningless … Based on my observations of how they have drafted previously and what the roster situation is this year and lack of FA money … I don’t think they are going to give up a second round pick to move up a 6-8 spots in the first round They might give a third or fourth and move up 2-4 spots to get someone they like if a player they like is still available AND they have a trade partner … Edited January 3 by Aussie Joe 1 Quote
vtnatefootball11 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 minute ago, Aussie Joe said: Well… Firstly I’m trying to predict what Beane will do and what will actually happen rather then what I would do which is meaningless … Based on my observations of how they have drafted previously and what the roster situation is this year and lack of FA money … I don’t think they are going to give up a second round pick to move up a 6-8 spots in the first round They might give a third or fourth and move up 2-4 spots to get someone they like if that is avail AND they gave a trade partner … Obviously we are not making the decision, but you are proving my point here by not even being able to offer any possible viable solution Beane could do at #2 if we miss on the top WR grouping in this draft. We have to do what it takes to trade up for a starting caliber WR. You yourself were the one saying that we likely won't get one one of the top 5-6 guys in this draft that are widely considered starting caliber wr#1/2 type prospects if we pick late (and I agree with you on that). Yes, hopefully we only have to move up 2-4 spots to get our guy, but Beane has shown that he will be aggressive in moving up further if needed. If the difference in getting a bonafide starting caliber WR in the draft that would be on a cheap contract and could eventually be a wr#1 type was giving up a 2025 2nd rounder vs a 2024 third, for example, you don't think Beane would do it? We would be throwing any shot at a Super Bowl in 2024 out if we don't have a WR #2. Free agency is not an option, only viable starers there (maybe Higgins or Pittman) would be way out reach price wise in FA. Please offer up another viable solution that Beane could take at #2 WR, otherwise you are proving my point that Beane would HAVE to do it. Quote
Aussie Joe Posted January 3 Posted January 3 (edited) 17 minutes ago, vtnatefootball11 said: Obviously we are not making the decision, but you are proving my point here by not even being able to offer any possible viable solution Beane could do at #2 if we miss on the top WR grouping in this draft. We have to do what it takes to trade up for a starting caliber WR. You yourself were the one saying that we likely won't get one one of the top 5-6 guys in this draft that are widely considered starting caliber wr#1/2 type prospects if we pick late (and I agree with you on that). Yes, hopefully we only have to move up 2-4 spots to get our guy, but Beane has shown that he will be aggressive in moving up further if needed. If the difference in getting a bonafide starting caliber WR in the draft that would be on a cheap contract and could eventually be a wr#1 type was giving up a 2025 2nd rounder vs a 2024 third, for example, you don't think Beane would do it? We would be throwing any shot at a Super Bowl in 2024 out if we don't have a WR #2. Free agency is not an option, only viable starers there (maybe Higgins or Pittman) would be way out reach price wise in FA. Please offer up another viable solution that Beane could take at #2 WR, otherwise you are proving my point that Beane would HAVE to do it. I am providing a solution … move up 2-4 spots in the first …If someone is available and they have a trade partner … there are no guarantees with the draft even with your solution of giving up a second round pick and moving up with that Also expect another Harty type signing or two in FA … no money for anything else .. Excluding Josh Allen … when has Beane given up more than a third to move up? Edited January 3 by Aussie Joe Quote
Eastport bills Posted January 3 Posted January 3 He may not be a legitimate #2 but he is a gamer and a guy that is so clutch and productive, you must target him on 3rd down and must have completions. Quote
vtnatefootball11 Posted January 3 Posted January 3 1 hour ago, Aussie Joe said: I am providing a solution … move up 2-4 spots in the first …If someone is available and they have a trade partner … there are no guarantees with the draft even with your solution of giving up a second round pick and moving up with that Also expect another Harty type signing or two in FA … no money for anything else .. Excluding Josh Allen … when has Beane given up more than a third to move up? Bills have never been in this position being so bare at starting caliber WRs as they will in 2024 + plus the uncertainty with diggs. I don't think the Bills will have to give up a 2nd to move up and get a legit WR, but they may, and they will if they have to. They have no other options. This all started by you saying the Bills "cannot trade up." I'm saying why the heck not? In fact they have to. Now you are saying despite the huge hole at WR they will only fill it if they move up 2-4 spots max? That's idiotic. No way Beane throws away the 2024 year because he refuses to move up a couple other spots. Hopefully there is value at WR that falls to us, but don't think for a second Beane would be afraid to trade upon 4/6/8 spots, whatever it took. He would and he has to. Quote
Aussie Joe Posted January 4 Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, vtnatefootball11 said: Bills have never been in this position being so bare at starting caliber WRs as they will in 2024 + plus the uncertainty with diggs. I don't think the Bills will have to give up a 2nd to move up and get a legit WR, but they may, and they will if they have to. They have no other options. This all started by you saying the Bills "cannot trade up." I'm saying why the heck not? In fact they have to. Now you are saying despite the huge hole at WR they will only fill it if they move up 2-4 spots max? That's idiotic. No way Beane throws away the 2024 year because he refuses to move up a couple other spots. Hopefully there is value at WR that falls to us, but don't think for a second Beane would be afraid to trade upon 4/6/8 spots, whatever it took. He would and he has to. Time will tell.. Im going to leave it at that as we have entrenched our positions… and we dont even know where they are picking yet … lose next week and have pick 18 and it might be a moot point… Happy to revisit in April when we know where they are picking and how FA has turned out .,, Edited January 4 by Aussie Joe Quote
HappyDays Posted January 4 Posted January 4 (edited) 6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: I get what you are saying, but honestly this is all a stretch I am seeing here in your theory. In a handful of posts now, you have essentially claimed that Diggs is hurt and hiding it, other players viciously attacked Diggs with the intent of injury, etc etc. Bottom line is all players have some degree of injury or pain management at this point in the year. Your examples of Beasley and his ribs for example, those were never a secret. That was known before, during, and after the game that he was gonna play through the injury. Watch Diggs play, there does not appear to be any indication on the field of being limited in anyway. What I have seen is Diggs get separation and beat his man just to find Josh under duress in the pocket and throwing in a forced manner and not getting the ball accurately to Diggs in many games now. Would anyone be talking about this if Allen didn't miss bad in the NE game when Diggs had several yards on his defender for a sure long bomb TD? Gabe Davis had like 3 games in 4 with 0 catches. Is he hurt too? There is just too much conspiracy theory going on here without any supporting evidence of any kind. Not to mention, Diggs has in previous seasons, including last year, started the season off with gaudy stats and cooled down the back half when the offensive passing game wasn't as efficient. Then there is the fact that Gabe Davis scares no one with the majority of his career games he has 3 catches or less and defenses can key in on Diggs doubling and even tripling him at times. There is also a significant increase in our teams rush attempts since Brady took over limiting the pass targets as a whole. We won a game this year against Dallas where Josh only attempted 15 passes, completing 7. This week against NE Josh only completed 50% of his passes, several of which were off target throws to open guys including Diggs. So no disrespect, but this pattern of production is one we have seen with Diggs during his time in Buffalo in past seasons and there are no signs of any kind of Diggs being limited out there. I mean when he catches the ball he is juking, cutting, dodging like he is Deebo Samuel out there. They even ran Diggs as a RB this week, not something they would do if he was playing an injury limiting his play outside of normal wear and tear. Many players get surgeries in the offseason for things that they were capable of playing through during the season to either speed up recovery or just recover better. So those past examples don't really imply that Diggs has something significantly wrong with him. When Josh Allen starts accurately delivering the ball to Diggs and he fails to make the plays or can't get to the ball from some limitation, then there is something to talk about. But right now, I am watching Diggs get open and Allen just not find him or not accurately connect, often because he is running for his life and throwing under duress...but sometimes, Josh has just flat out thrown poor balls. I'll admit I'm worried that Diggs' problem right now is mental, not physical. I fear that he has lost a bit of his edge, and any backslide in that department creates a big difference on the field. He has expended a lot of emotional energy over the years to no avail and I wonder if he is now feeling a bit checked out and hollow. Maybe he is banged up a little. But there is also something just plain missing from his play and his demeanor on the field lately... He is making an effort but he isn't playing with his hair on fire like I'm used to seeing. He looks nonchalant when passes in his direction are off target. He has been unwilling to try and disrupt interceptions like the one against the Chargers. He stayed on the sidelines for the entire first drive of the 2nd half but didn't appear to have any physical issues on the field. He and Allen clearly do not have the same relationship they had in 2020 and 2021, there is tension there. I don't know. Something is up and I'm not convinced it is just because of injury. Edited January 4 by HappyDays Quote
Arkady Renko Posted January 4 Posted January 4 On 1/2/2024 at 1:42 AM, Kincaid Kool-Aid said: Only thing that makes me nervous is Beane hasn’t proven to be the best WR talent evaluator. Maybe it’s not all on him and it’s highly possible our carousel of coordinators have been less than stellar in their passing game concepts as well, but outside of grabbing an established talent in Diggs his track record at the position isn’t exactly inspiring He did a good job bringing Beasley and Brown over. Quote
vtnatefootball11 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Aussie Joe said: Time will tell.. Im going to leave it at that as we have entrenched our positions… and we dont even know where they are picking yet … lose next week and have pick 18 and it might be a moot point… Happy to revisit in April when we know where they are picking and how FA has turned out .,, That's fair. 1 Quote
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