Joe Brady vs Ken Dorsey- Has He Been Better?

[pocoboy]

For me, it looks like both coordinators are getting stung by whatever malaise the offense develops once the big wins have faded away and the toil of facing sub-.500 teams becomes the menu item. To an outsider one would wonder if they are truly putting in the work. It's easy to blame coordinators, and the WR screens have been ugly and pretty clearly telegraphed by how well they're blown up by the defense. But no system is going to be effective if the practice reps are not taken seriously.

 

The big question ought to be whether the thing between the ears of the guy wearing 17 can stay focused, intent, and motivated enough to learn/run/follow/execute the reads & progressions laid out for him. I think if that all happens, Brady's gonna look like a genius. If it doesn't, everyone will be asking for some other OC and/or HC.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

12 hours ago, freddyjj said:

I believe the OP left off the W-L percentage under each Off Coord. 

How does that matter? It was the defense that cost them wins against Pats, Denver, and Eagles. Dorsey and Allen left the field with the lead twice and Brady and Allen did twice as well in the Eagles game. 

 

Time to blow it up and get a new OC and an entirely new offense. Need a McVay or Shanahan disciple to transform the offense.

[Homey D. Clown]

13 hours ago, thenorthremembers said:

After watching the offense slog along yesterday I wanted to go back and look at the statistics over the last six weeks to see how much of a difference Brady has been.    Looking over the stats, it seems like a bit of a push in terms of offensive success.  What Brady has done better is exactly what McDermott kept harping on "complimentary football."    Brady has taken the air out of the offense and replaced it with ground success, and in doing so, cut down on the turnovers.     

 

Can the Bills keep it up at this pace?   Can they rely on the defense to keep playing out of their minds and hope a successful running game can move them forward?  Personally, I think the Bills are playing on a razors edge and will end up bit.    The Bills really need to consider looking outside of the organization at guys like Eric Bienemy, and Kellen Moore in the offseason to attempt and fix the passing game.  

 

 

 

 

I am going to be the unpopular one here and say what I think is going on in the passing game.

 

1.  Josh Allen is not getting great, if any pass protection on most of his drop backs, none.

2.  He is not seeing guys get open early enough to make quick throws

3.  Diggs isn't getting enough separation on routes, double coverage... ETC

4.  Josh Allen is making stupid decisions with the football regularly, killing drives.

5.  I think because of #s 1-4, he is struggling with his instinctive decision making in heavy pressure situations and holding onto the ball too much.

 

I don't think it's the coordinator.  Your chart points to throw more, have more turnovers, which I think validates my list.

[2003Contenders]

It is hard to look at stats overall, because each game presents its own unique situation.

 

I think we can all agree that the offense looked much improved in Brady's first two games as OC against the Jets and Eagles.

 

Against the Chiefs, who sport a top-notch defense, the numbers were not as great but the offense still did enough to pull out the victory on the road in Arrowhead.

 

The Cowboys game was also hugely successful with Brady showing the adaptation to move toward a rushing attack that was tailor-made to thwart a Cowboys defense that was built to stop the pass. I suspect that the success of the rushing attack in that game may have given Brady a bit of an inflated view of just how good the offense really is at running the ball, given that they had nowhere near that sort of success against either the Chargers or the Pats.

 

Speaking of which...

 

The offense certainly regressed after the Dallas game -- but I do not think they were nearly as bad against the Chargers as we remember. Remember that 3 bad turnovers (including one on Special Teams) served to minimize the offensive output in that game.

 

The Pats game was another story entirely, as the offense looked as bad as it has all year long (with either Brady or Dorsey). Plenty of blame to go around here, as the play calling definitely left a lot to be desired -- but the OL did not do a great job, Josh missed on some key opportunities, and the receivers (running backs included) dropped some very catch-able passes.

 

Sometimes, though, you have to give credit where it is due -- and Bill Bellichick had a masterful game plan that his players executed excellently. You know that after those back-to-back games against Josh and the Bills back in 2021 (where the Bills did not punt a single time in either game), BB was up nights trying to figure out a defense that would thwart Josh. To an extent, he succeeded as the offense did not play nearly as well against the Patriots last year. And in 2 games this year, that defense gave Josh fits. The Pats figured out a way to make Josh uncomfortable -- and when he is uncomfortable, he s prone to making mistakes (and missing open receivers).

[26TrapDraw]

Difference to me is simple. Brady finds a way to attack the defense that particular week and has a balanced and adaptive attack based on opponent. He also uses our strengths and has a pretty good mix of run and pass.

Dorsey was too Rigid in his concepts as well as painfully repetitive. It wasn’t a bad offense but it was too predictable and he had some boneheaded things like running out of shotgun in short yardage. It was so telegraphed. He also didn’t give Cook much of a chance.

No adjustments either. 

Edited January 2 by 26TrapDraw

[GunnerBill]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Clearly the Ravens and 49ers. And that is exactly how those teams are built this year.

 

3 of the 9ers top 5 cap hits and 5 of their top 9 are on defense. Also if you take out Trey Lance they have spent their first pick in the draft on offense once since 2012.

 

The magic of the 49ers build isn't having a cheap well coached defense. It is having a Mr Irrelevant QB who is at least a very capable game manager. That allows them the flexibility to have 3 highly paid DL, a market setting MLB and a well paid corner. 

 

Sure, they are well coached and have a good scheme.... but Nick Bosa, Arik Armstead, Fred Warner and Charvarius Ward certainly make the job of that defensive coaching staff easier. So does having the fewest turnovers on offense (which they had until Baltimore, there are four teams below them now).

[DeltaDigital]

13 hours ago, Governor said:

They’re the same person.

Same person without a shotgun draw. 

 

[Andrew Son]

1 hour ago, Homey D. Clown said:

 

 

I am going to be the unpopular one here and say what I think is going on in the passing game.

 

1.  Josh Allen is not getting great, if any pass protection on most of his drop backs, none.

 

Heard this statistic on Locked on Bills:

 

Josh Allen is dead last in the league last the last four games in completion % and passer rating when facing NO pressure.

 

There's always a million excuses for Josh when he struggles.  He simply needs to be better.  We have a top defense in place, a good oline, and a strong run game.  With elite QB play we should be in a much better position, the passing offense should be the least of our worries.

[HappyDays]

43 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

3 of the 9ers top 5 cap hits and 5 of their top 9 are on defense. Also if you take out Trey Lance they have spent their first pick in the draft on offense once since 2012.

 

The magic of the 49ers build isn't having a cheap well coached defense. It is having a Mr Irrelevant QB who is at least a very capable game manager. That allows them the flexibility to have 3 highly paid DL, a market setting MLB and a well paid corner. 

 

Sure, they are well coached and have a good scheme.... but Nick Bosa, Arik Armstead, Fred Warner and Charvarius Ward certainly make the job of that defensive coaching staff easier. So does having the fewest turnovers on offense (which they had until Baltimore, there are four teams below them now).

 

Yes you still need talent on defense of course. But that team's Super Bowl aspirations are built on their four headed monster at the skill positions.

[TampaBillsJunkie]

14 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

And if it's Brady's decision to insist on keep playing guys like Sherfield and (especially) Murray then he has no business being the OC here next year.

This!!  Sheffield and Murray have been disaster artists. I'd like to see them inactive. I had high hopes on Sheffield, but he has really had a down year.

[GunnerBill]

32 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes you still need talent on defense of course. But that team's Super Bowl aspirations are built on their four headed monster at the skill positions.

 

Of course but they are not an example of a team that is ploughing resource into offense and just getting by with scheme on defense. That isn't the 49ers model. There are two things about their current roster build that stick out as interesting:

 

1. They have Mr Irrelevant at least for one more year on a hugely advantageous rookie deal (that is almost impossible for any team to replicate); 

2. They have very little of a middle class on their roster. They are stars and JAGs. That to me is the model that is the pattern among most recent Superbowl winners (rather than O vs D) and is where I still think the Bills are a bit off it. Not enough stars, more of a middle class, fewer JAGs and arguably greater depth. But that isn't ultimately what gets you over the line. It's the stars. 

[Danger Mouse]

Dorsey has been just what we needed. But he's not the guy. 

 

The guy has to be someone that can make Josh the best QB in the league. It's already clear it isn't Brady. Brady is perfect for where we are now. And he'll be great somewhere - as he's clearly up to league standard. But it feels that we need someone very, very special as an OC. I like Brady a lot, lot more than Dorsey. And he seems to be better in the red zone than Daboll. 

 

But it does feel Allen's OC needs to be more 'Daboll-shaped' if potential is to be fulfilled. 

Edited January 2 by Bill Grundy

[Udubalum07]

From what I have seen there is marginal improvement when it comes to stats. The thing that I feel Brady has done a lot better job with is adjusting to the game as it is played. This has allowed for them to win ugly games when it has been called for, but has also put up some big yards and scores when that is the way it was played. 

 

I do think that he has done enough to earn the job for next year.

[Homey D. Clown]

1 hour ago, SWATeam said:

Heard this statistic on Locked on Bills:

 

Josh Allen is dead last in the league last the last four games in completion % and passer rating when facing NO pressure.

 

There's always a million excuses for Josh when he struggles.  He simply needs to be better.  We have a top defense in place, a good oline, and a strong run game.  With elite QB play we should be in a much better position, the passing offense should be the least of our worries.

 

I really don't disagree with you at all.  I have said the only games Josh has looked like Josh this year were against the Dolphins and Eagles.

[Heels20X6]

As many have said, Brady's been an improvement over Dorsey but not enough IMO to warrant being gifted the OC role.  

 

I still see some of the same issues persisting from Dorsey's time (lackadaisical effort from Allen at times, poor WR play, weak O-line against the pressure) under Brady which makes me want a new voice in the room.

 

We desperately need a WR#2 though.  Open the vault for Higgins or find a Waddle-like player ASAP during the off-season.  No gambling on this with Draft Picks unless Marvin Harrison Jr. falls to us.

 

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

I would argue that Brady is running a very similar offense to what Dorsey did. When it came to analytics, the Bills had crazy good numbers for offense.

 

Where I'd argue Brady has been better is situational awareness. I have been seeing fewer runs on second and long and shotgun QB draws. I am seeing a willingness to attack a defenses' weaknesses. 

 

I don't think it's been perfect, and I certainly have my quibbles (more play action, where the hell is Kincaid, what was up with Josh last game). But, in general, I will have few complaints about a handoff to Murray on 3rd and 1, even it doesn't work out. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, SWATeam said:

Heard this statistic on Locked on Bills:

 

Josh Allen is dead last in the league last the last four games in completion % and passer rating when facing NO pressure.

 

There's always a million excuses for Josh when he struggles.  He simply needs to be better.  We have a top defense in place, a good oline, and a strong run game.  With elite QB play we should be in a much better position, the passing offense should be the least of our worries.

I’d question how small a sample size ‘no pressure’ is…the common factor in the games our offense has looked bad throughout the season is the interior oline getting walloped which is when you start to see those quick screens that everyone hates to slow the pressure down.  Doesn’t mean josh is blameless or the oline hasn’t been great at other times by any means though

 

the pressure from previous plays starts to get in your head and it fiddles with your mechanics when you finally do get time…I don’t think criticizing the oline absolves Josh because those two pieces go hand in hand. It’s for sure related though.  Better interior oline play will absolutely lead to better play from Josh…who is ‘blamed’ is kind of irrelevant

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yes having access to Allen's mobility is an advantage Brady has over Dorsey. But it is not close to the advantage that having a true #1 WR gives you. QB power and the tush push are good plays to convert 3rd and 5 or less. They are not easy button plays that consistently put points on the board. This goes without saying but until the midpoint of this season, Diggs has been our easy button answer since we acquired him. In many games over that time frame our offense would fall into a slump, and simply forcing the ball to Diggs was the quick way out of it. We've completely lost that escape hatch. This entire past offseason we discussed if an offense could function with just a #1 but no #2. As of now we have neither.

 

So I guess I just have low expectations for the passing offense in general. Without Diggs playing at his usual standard it's arguably just as poor a group of pass catchers as Mahomes has right now, and even the great Andy Reid can't scheme their way out of that one.

 

 

 

Yeah I just don't know if that's the case with regard to this season.    Before Allen was running the only consistent option they had was Diggs.    Once Allen started running it's opened up something every week.   Just look at the draw plays to Cook out of shotgun.   Now it works.   Their base 11 aren't as good with Diggs playing below expectation........but it's basically 11 on 11 now instead of 10 on 11 like it was thru the Denver game.

 

It's moving the chains and putting points on the board for Brady.    They might be a 10 point per game less team if they were playing with the "don't run Josh" mandate that Dorsey was........hard to say because they aren't throwing the ball as much.   They'd become the best red zone TD scoring team in the league under Brady.......perhaps until this past game I haven't seen the updated stats.  

 

I'm not defending Dorsey,  we are on the same page as you know,  this is ultimately about not putting receiving talent around Allen.   It's an apples to oranges comparison because of variables like Diggs decline, running Allen, perhaps the OL gelling more in the run game etc..

 

But I'm not especially impressed with Brady to this point either.   They are just succeeding enough by taking the low hanging fruit that they didn't earlier in the season.

[TheWeatherMan]

16 hours ago, Governor said:

They’re the same person.

To be fair he’s had 6 weeks…not enough time to install a new system, he’s trying to fix a broken system with bubblegum and duct tape.  
 

Hiring Josh’s buddy as OC set this franchise back at least 3 years.

[BADOLBILZ]

56 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course but they are not an example of a team that is ploughing resource into offense and just getting by with scheme on defense. That isn't the 49ers model. There are two things about their current roster build that stick out as interesting:

 

1. They have Mr Irrelevant at least for one more year on a hugely advantageous rookie deal (that is almost impossible for any team to replicate); 

2. They have very little of a middle class on their roster. They are stars and JAGs. That to me is the model that is the pattern among most recent Superbowl winners (rather than O vs D) and is where I still think the Bills are a bit off it. Not enough stars, more of a middle class, fewer JAGs and arguably greater depth. But that isn't ultimately what gets you over the line. It's the stars. 

 

 

To @HappyDays point though, they really nailed the Kittle, Samuel and Aiyuk picks..........2 All Pro's and another likely top 15 WR with draft capital that's about equal to one late first round pick.    They've gotten 4 years of the best LT in football for a 3rd and 5th round pick.   Everyone thinks McCaffrey was a steal but he's the most replaceable of the bunch.  They may not have invested a lot on the surface in these players but they've stacked elite talent on their offense.    Even after wasting those picks on Lance they are money ahead.