Offensive Supporting Cast

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I guess what I mean is that it's easier to hide a below average OL than it is to hide a below average group of weapons. As evidenced by the fact that below average OLs have made it to the Super Bowl in recent years, but below average groups of weapons have not.

 

The Bengals made it with a below average OL. I am not sure I can recall anyone else doing it in recent times. Maybe Big Ben's second Steelers Superbowl, that was a line a bit like our 2021 one that was pretty terrible all year but then suddenly pulled it together in the playoffs and played well. 

 

I know the Chiefs line IN the Superbowl against the Buccs sucked but remember they lost two guys in the AFCCG. That was not the line that got them there. 

 

So I am not sure I buy that you can hide a below average line that easily. You need pass catchers, sure. But at the same time the Panthers reached the Superbowl with Greg Olsen and Ted Ginn and the Seahawks reached their 2nd with Doug Baldwin (who was good but not great) and then a complete bunch of JAGs. They did at least have Golden Tate for their win.

 

I guess I just think beyond Quarterback there is no absolute pattern to Superbowl teams. You almost always have to have a Quarterback. Otherwise it is about the number of elite guys you have rather than the positions they play. 

 

Again, none of which is me disagreeing with you on the Bills resource allocation at receiver. 

[NewEra]

38 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I guess what I mean is that it's easier to hide a below average OL than it is to hide a below average group of weapons. As evidenced by the fact that below average OLs have made it to the Super Bowl in recent years, but below average groups of weapons have not.

The chiefs won a SB with just that last year.   Unless you think JuJu is that much better than Rashee rice that it would bump them up a notch.  OT certainly looks like the chiefs playmakers are below average this season, no?

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The chiefs won a SB with just that last year.   Unless you think JuJu is that much better than Rashee rice that it would bump them up a notch.  OT certainly looks like the chiefs playmakers are below average this season, no?

 

Yea JuJu isn't great. Look at him this year. I know he is playing with a terrible QB situation but JuJu is an average receiver. He doesn't suck but he isn't a difference maker.

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The chiefs won a SB with just that last year.   Unless you think JuJu is that much better than Rashee rice that it would bump them up a notch.  OT certainly looks like the chiefs playmakers are below average this season, no?

 

The Chiefs weapons were absolutely not below average last year. Not as good as when they had Tyreek Hill obviously. They still had the GOAT pass catching TE and yes JJSS who for some reason is underrated on this board. His issue throughout his career has been injuries and attitude, not talent. He's not elite at any one thing but he's very well rounded and can run all the routes. I mean he had over 1,400 yards receiving in his sophomore season... When healthy he is a very good #2. He had a 77.2% catch rate for the Chiefs last year. That's the kind of dependable production you want from a #2, as opposed to the coin flip production that we've gotten from ours.

 

This year of course their weapons are below average. It's been a HUGE talking point across the NFL media landscape. Nobody thinks the Chiefs are a legitimate Super Bowl contender for that reason. So yeah that is my exact point.

 

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea JuJu isn't great. Look at him this year. I know he is playing with a terrible QB situation but JuJu is an average receiver. He doesn't suck but he isn't a difference maker.

 

I haven't said he's a difference maker, but he is the apparent floor that you need as your #2 pass catcher to be a legitimate Super Bowl contender in the modern NFL.

 

This past offseason after he signed with the Pats there was a report that the Pats found out his knee was "a mess" and was a "ticking time bomb." So once again his injury issues plus being in a moribund offense have made him less productive. The Chiefs got a bit lucky I will admit. They took him as an injury risk flyer for a low contract and it paid off big time. They may have gotten the last healthy season of his career... We tried the same tactic with Jamison Crowder and it went the opposite direction. 

[FireChans]

21 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Chiefs weapons were absolutely not below average last year. Not as good as when they had Tyreek Hill obviously. They still had the GOAT pass catching TE and yes JJSS who for some reason is underrated on this board. His issue throughout his career has been injuries and attitude, not talent. He's not elite at any one thing but he's very well rounded and can run all the routes. I mean he had over 1,400 yards receiving in his sophomore season... When healthy he is a very good #2. He had a 77.2% catch rate for the Chiefs last year. That's the kind of dependable production you want from a #2, as opposed to the coin flip production that we've gotten from ours.

 

This year of course their weapons are below average. It's been a HUGE talking point across the NFL media landscape. Nobody thinks the Chiefs are a legitimate Super Bowl contender for that reason. So yeah that is my exact point.

 

 

I haven't said he's a difference maker, but he is the apparent floor that you need as your #2 pass catcher to be a legitimate Super Bowl contender in the modern NFL.

 

This past offseason after he signed with the Pats there was a report that the Pats found out his knee was "a mess" and was a "ticking time bomb." So once again his injury issues plus being in a moribund offense have made him less productive. The Chiefs got a bit lucky I will admit. They took him as an injury risk flyer for a low contract and it paid off big time. They may have gotten the last healthy season of his career... We tried the same tactic with Jamison Crowder and it went the opposite direction. 

The Chiefs last year also had an absolute weapon in Jerrick McKinnon who is not nearly as good this year. 
 

Last year, they had a much better RB room than us. This year, ours is actually better. 

[GoBills808]

51 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea JuJu isn't great. Look at him this year. I know he is playing with a terrible QB situation but JuJu is an average receiver. He doesn't suck but he isn't a difference maker.

Disagree on Juju

 

He was legit elite as second option behind Antonio Brown 

 

Kelce/JuJu/MVS plus McKinnon/Pacheco is a solid group

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The Chiefs last year also had an absolute weapon in Jerrick McKinnon who is not nearly as good this year. 
 

Last year, they had a much better RB room than us. This year, ours is actually better. 

McKinnon was huge for them last year

So good in pass pro

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Disagree on Juju

 

He was legit elite as second option behind Antonio Brown 

 

Kelce/JuJu/MVS plus McKinnon/Pacheco is a solid group

McKinnon was huge for them last year

So good in pass pro

 

Juju had one great year when AB was literally the best receiver in football. I think other than that he is a #2. But he isn't a top end #2 by any stretch. And MVS does suck. 

 

Agree on the running backs though.

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Juju had one great year when AB was literally the best receiver in football. I think other than that he is a #2. But he isn't a top end #2 by any stretch. And MVS does suck. 

 

Agree on the running backs though.

Imo. that the drop off in KC offense is more a problem of their RB’s than their WR’s comparing this year and last. Along with an aging Kelce.

[GoBills808]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Juju had one great year when AB was literally the best receiver in football. I think other than that he is a #2. But he isn't a top end #2 by any stretch. And MVS does suck. 

 

Agree on the running backs though.

Juju averaged over 1000 yards/season when healthy as #2 behind Brown catching passes from Roethlisberger

Davis averages 661/season as #2 behind Diggs catching passes from Allen

 

theyre not comparable imo

 

JuJu is a legit NFL wideout

Davis is not capable of playing the position at that level

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Imo. that the drop off in KC offense is more a problem of their RB’s than their WR’s comparing this year and last. Along with an aging Kelce.

 

And their OTs. They didn't love Orlando Brown because he was a better run blocker than pass blocker but maaaaaann.... he was significantly better than Donavan Smith has been. He was never great IMO and he is washed. And Jawaan Taylor who they originally signed to a decent deal thinking they could make him a left tackle has been bad and a penalty machine even at right tackle. 

 

That has been part of the run game decline too.

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Juju averaged over 1000 yards/season when healthy as #2 behind Brown catching passes from Roethlisberger

Davis averages 661/season as #2 behind Diggs catching passes from Allen

 

theyre not comparable imo

 

JuJu is a legit NFL wideout

Davis is not capable of playing the position at that level

 

He had one sensational year. The rest of the time he was a #2, and he is better than Gabe, I agree with that, but he is overrated IMO. He is a middle of the road #2 receiver. 

[HappyDays]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

He is a middle of the road #2 receiver. 

 

Then there's not much disagreement here. I don't think he's a great #2, but he is a legit #2. Davis isn't even that. It is not correct to say that the Chiefs had a below average group of weapons last year. The best pass catching TE of all time and an average #2 WR is better than anything Allen has ever had in his career, even 2020.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by HappyDays

[HappyDays]

42 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The Chiefs last year also had an absolute weapon in Jerrick McKinnon who is not nearly as good this year. 
 

Last year, they had a much better RB room than us. This year, ours is actually better. 

 

I think part of it was also just the fact that they made it a point to get the RBs involved in the pass game. Defenses last year were still playing the Chiefs like they had Tyreek Hill, which was inexplicable. This even happened in the Super Bowl in a bout of coaching malpractice from the Eagles. It's like defenses didn't think Andy Reid and Mahomes would actually be patient enough to stick with that style of offense, but they did. Similar to what just happened in our favor against the Cowboys. But this year defenses have stopped playing with so much fear of the Chiefs deep passing game and the Chiefs just don't have the horses to beat good defenses straight up.

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Then there's not much disagreement here. I don't think he's a great #2, but he is a legit #2. Davis isn't even that. It is not correct to say that the Chiefs had a below average group of weapons last year. The best pass catching TE of all time and an average #2 WR is better than anything Allen has ever had in his career, even 2020.

 

Nah, 2020 was better. The problem is that when Josh had a pretty good unit, he went up against Patty who had 2 HoFers.

[Cash]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I guess what I mean is that it's easier to hide a below average OL than it is to hide a below average group of weapons. As evidenced by the fact that below average OLs have made it to the Super Bowl in recent years, but below average groups of weapons have not.

 

I agree with this.  But with that said, one of my takeaways from last year was that our line just wasn't good enough.  There's a critical mass of bad OL play, where the QB is hurried on almost every throw.  To have a chance at winning in the playoffs, any OL needs to stay above that critical mass, and we didn't last year.  I remember at the end of the Bengals playoff loss, telling people that my #1 wish for the offseason was "just an above average line.  Doesn't need to be great; I just want it to not suck again."

 

At the current state of the league, I'm a big believer in having a "good enough" line.  Meaning good players on reasonable contracts, and any Great players are either on rookie deals, or maybe you've got 1 Great team captain who makes the big bucks.  (If the latter, that guy should ideally also be the LT, so that everyone else on the line makes less money.)  As great as Quinton Nelson is, I'm skeptical that the Colts can ever build a serious contender while allocating that kind of money to a guard.

 

My philosophy goes double for the Bills, who have an all-world QB who's also one of the most elusive QBs in history.  Any 1 defender getting through the line is usually not a problem.  If that defender is getting through 80% of the time, it's a problem for sure.  But if it's more like 5-6 plays a game, I'll live with that all day.  Because usually the results will be something like 1 sack, 2-3 throwaways, and several positive plays either running or passing.