Offensive Supporting Cast

[NoSaint]

22 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

There was some narrative early in the season that Allen was surrounded by bums. Josh is our best player and a top 3 qb but can we finally argee that there is legit good talent on this offense? 
 

- one of the most improved (and honestly one of the best o lines in the nfl)

- a top 5 receiver 

- a top 5 rb who is breaking out big time 

- a 1st round TE who is emerging as one of the best receiving TEs in the nfl 

 

 

obviously, Allen is the star but can we finally admit this is a really good group around him? How many groups are better? SF, Philly, Miami, and maybe Detroit? 

I think you may be swinging a little hard the other way -

 

I’m not sure diggs is top 5

 

kincaid is on the upswing for sure but has some space between where he’s at and reaching his potential 

 

I’ve been on the cook bandwagon for a long time so I’ll only argue so much there- though health is likely helping that full throated top 5 at the moment

 

i don’t think our perimeter talent is exceptional really but I do think we have some fun pieces mixed in and Josh elevates all of them 

Edited December 21, 2023 by NoSaint

[John from Riverside]

Would feel a lot better if we had that number two wide receiver, that guy that would take advantage of the fact that they’re so worried about diggs 

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I think the talent is starting to get there.  For almost two years Chris Simms has been saying “someone else is allowed to step up besides Josh Allen and Stefan Diggs”

 

We’ve seen that happen ever since Joe Brady took over - especially last week against Dallas.  For the first time ever, the best player on the Bills offense was not named Allen or Diggs.  
 

I don’t think Kincaid is there yet but we’ve seen flashes and Knox is an excellent TE2 though I don’t think he’ll be around long term w/ his contract and Kincaid.  

The spot that needs to be improved is WR.  Diggs is 30 and we might be seeing the beginning of some signs of decline.  I think Shakir has potential as a WR3 but lacks the overall consistency.  Gabe Davis… great blocker but we need more of a threat at WR2.  
 

OL is pretty good and should return next season in tact though at some point, a Mitch Morse replacement will be needed.  
 

So they are getting there - I’d still like to see a WR taken in R1 this year 

 

 

Important to note that I think Simms has meant "step up" in conjunction with Diggs.    The Bills can't get the ball to Diggs.   It's kind of been either/or.

 

[HappyDays]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

But he is still a master of his craft as a route runner and he was always a guy who relied on his route running skill over his speed and suddenness.

 

This points to another problem in our offense, we don't have anyone that can win at the catch point. Either Diggs wins his route or one of the other guys gets schemed open or forgotten about by the defense. I can't think of many offenses that don't have a go to guy where if you see him 1v1 you can just toss the ball in his general direction and there's a better than even chance he'll come down with it. Kincaid was advertised as a great contested catch guy but he isn't there yet.

 

Similarly we don't have anyone that truly scares defenses with the ball in their hands. Cook is the best we have in that area but he is never going to catch a 5 yard slant and turn it into a 50 yard TD.

 

The more I think about it the more perplexed I am by this thread. We have one pass catcher that consistently separates at an above average level and even he has not been dominant. We have zero contested catch specialists. We have zero elite YAC guys. As a result, the offense has a crazy low margin for error.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by HappyDays

[JohnNord]

23 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Important to note that I think Simms has meant "step up" in conjunction with Diggs.    The Bills can't get the ball to Diggs.   It's kind of been either/or.

 

Maybe but his criticism was always that it was Allen to Diggs or nothing.  The Bills needs contributions from other players and they are getting it with Cook

[khlax3]

Bills should bring the entire oline including backups back, the entire TE group back, and Ty Johnson as a rb3.

 

they need a back up qb (should use a late round pick on one so we have someone for 4 years) 

 

they need a rb2- cheap vet or late draft pick (or if they like what fornette has done in practice just bring him in as the rb2

 

they need 2 wrs (draft one high and a mid tier vet (Diggs, high draft pick, shakir, mid tier vet, resign Sherfield as blocking wr, and shorter

[C.Biscuit97]

4 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

The only thing missing is the guy that can make the long play. Gabe was the one for a bit but no longer. 

Agreed. Honestly, we hit what we should have expected with Gabe (and maybe more). He was a 4th rounder with not great speed. 
 

I would love  to see Rome O or Keon Coleman be next to Diggs next year. Guys with all the traits who can grew into a number 1 receiver eventually.

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

You listed 8 and some might still regard Diggs as better than Deebo….. a RB playing WR in a freaky system.  

You’d take deebo over Diggs? 🤣 

 

No disrespect to Diggs, but I'd take Deebo over him any day.  

 

Samuel struggles with injuries, but when he's healthy, there isn't a better weapon at the position.

 

2021 - 77 rec 1405 6TDs 18.2ypc with another 365 rushing and 8 TDs.

 

Stef isn't that, especially not with Jimmy Garopollo at QB.

Edited December 21, 2023 by Chicken Boo

[C.Biscuit97]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Allen's supporting cast was not characterized as "bums" which is just a hyperbolic statement.   The comparison was to teams like CIN, KC, and PHI he didn't have the skilled talent at WR/TE.  

 

I wouldn't characterize Kincaid as "one of the best receiving TE's in the NFL."  He's averaging 8 yards per catch, good for 112th in the league among WR and TE.  As advertised, his hands are excellent but he's not top tier yet.  

 

Also shouldn't go unsaid that the OL playing well is a major factor, but skilled receivers are not all that.

Trust me there are some threads and there was a lot of down talk about the supporting group. 

Kincaid, before we didn’t need to pass last week and when Knox got hurt has averaged 53.9 yards in 7 games. That puts him basically tied with LaPorta 4th.  

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/football/stats/TE/2023/ytd/stats/nonppr/?sortcol=receiving_yds&sortdir=descending
 

100% agree he needs to get the ball further down the field and hope we see it more in the next few games 

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

That's what I mean about QB dependent tho

 

Before he got to Buffalo nobody had Diggs as a top5 wideout

I agree he wasn’t top 5 in Minny but he essentially averaged 1,000 yards/ season despite missing games every year. He has been a really good player since his rookie year. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DiggSt00.htm
 

allen and Diggs took each other to the next level.

6 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

No disrespect to Diggs, but I'd take Deebo over him any day.  

 

Samuel struggles with injuries, but when he's healthy, there isn't a better weapon at the position.

 

2021 - 77 rec 1405 6TDs 18.2ypc with another 365 rushing and 8 TDs.

 

Stef isn't that, especially not with Jimmy Garopollo at QB.

I agree that Deebo is the more explosive player but Diggs’ game will make him be productive for longer. 

[The Jokeman]

4 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

100% the WR room needs to improve but I’ve got to admit I was wrong on cook. He may not be great after contact and he has lapses in concentration with 2 big time TD drops (eagles and cowboys) but man is he a fun chess piece for this offense. Also I love Kincaid! Outside of his horrible decision to wear rain gloves, he has been clutch city for Josh in key moments. Diggs had the nice one handed grab last week but he has taken a step back later this season and even though Davis is a great blocker, he can’t be relied on as an actual pass catcher. Sherfield looks like a huge whiff as he looks lost whenever he’s on the field. I thought he’d be a nice addition after his great preseason. Harry was supposed to be the gadget dude who was paid like he could also be our deep threat too but that experiment didn’t pan out either. Shakir looks like a solid WR who is improving each year but addressing is a huge need this offseason. No more jags. Josh needs more dudes he can depend in big moments. 
 

2 big additions the bills need to try hard for are:

 

#1 draft Odunze if he is anywhere close to falling past top 15. Watch him with Penix. Game on the line, everyone in the world knows it’s going to Odunze and he’s clutch city

 

#2 trade for Courtland Sutton. This dude is a dawg! Imagine him having any competent QB play. He’s a #1 WR getting paid like a 2. 
 

id love to get both of these dudes but realistically we would probably only get one. They’re both big bodied, freak athletes who are red zone monsters and for bigger dudes can actually separate from defenders. 
 

I know others will want Tee Higgins or Mr. Drop, Mike Evans but I don’t think they’re the consistent contributor that Josh needs from his new #1 target as Diggs transitions to 2 as he declines (he’s still awesome just not the guy he was as consistently). Higgins isn’t a great separator and Mike is just not clutch any more. Both make the spectacular catch from time to time and I’d welcome them in Buffalo but Sutton and Odunze are top 5 WRs in this league with Josh as their QB

 

 

I'd love Michael Pittman and wanted him in his draft year too. Yet doubt we have the money. In terms of the draft Odunze and Troy Franklin. 

[C.Biscuit97]

56 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This points to another problem in our offense, we don't have anyone that can win at the catch point. Either Diggs wins his route or one of the other guys gets schemed open or forgotten about by the defense. I can't think of many offenses that don't have a go to guy where if you see him 1v1 you can just toss the ball in his general direction and there's a better than even chance he'll come down with it. Kincaid was advertised as a great contested catch guy but he isn't there yet.

 

Similarly we don't have anyone that truly scares defenses with the ball in their hands. Cook is the best we have in that area but he is never going to catch a 5 yard slant and turn it into a 50 yard TD.

 

The more I think about it the more perplexed I am by this thread. We have one pass catcher that consistently separates at an above average level and even he has not been dominant. We have zero contested catch specialists. We have zero elite YAC guys. As a result, the offense has a crazy low margin for error.

 

I know you’re a guy who can’t criticize Allen but isn’t that part on him as well? Davis has caught a ton of deep passes here. We have almost essentially the same receivers as last year unless you think McKenzie was a huge loss, 

 

the deep ball has been missing and we do lack high speed. But Allen seemed more accurate throwing them in past years.

[Bookie Man]

Only element missing from this offense is a deep threat. Anyone remember the last time this offense hit the deep ball? Need a field stretcher. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

I think you may be swinging a little hard the other way -

 

I’m not sure diggs is top 5

 

kincaid is on the upswing for sure but has some space between where he’s at and reaching his potential 

 

I’ve been on the cook bandwagon for a long time so I’ll only argue so much there- though health is likely helping that fill throated top 5 at the moment

 

i don’t think our perimeter talent is exceptional really but I do think we have some fun pieces mixed in and Josh elevates all of them 

Since Diggs has gotten here, he is a top 5 receiver and the stats back that up. He is the best route runner on the game. Would I rather have a baggier faster guy like Chase? Yeah for sure. But Diggs is great and always gets opened or doubled. 
 

and cook has gotten better as the season has gone along. It wasn’t his fault that we need to give our backup RBs so many Carries or didn’t throw to him early in the season. 

 

In a league that hates RBs, he was a second round pick. Guy has insane talent, he averages 5.3 ypc for his career. Also isn’t availability the best ability? 

[NeverOutNick]

14 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I'd love Michael Pittman and wanted him in his draft year too. Yet doubt we have the money. In terms of the draft Odunze and Troy Franklin. 

I do love me some Franklin. He actually reminds me of Diggs, the way he plays

[HappyDays]

21 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I know you’re a guy who can’t criticize Allen but isn’t that part on him as well? Davis has caught a ton of deep passes here. We have almost essentially the same receivers as last year unless you think McKenzie was a huge loss, 

 

the deep ball has been missing and we do lack high speed. But Allen seemed more accurate throwing them in past years.

 

So in your mind did the Chiefs lose the ability to throw the ball deep the past two years because Mahomes suddenly forgot how to do that? Obviously it's an issue of personnel. Also to be fair defenses aren't letting teams take those shots anymore. The Dolphins are the only offense regularly getting their guys streaking wide open down field behind the defense. All the other deep shots I'm seeing completed, it's usually the intended receiver just being an alpha and winning above the rim. Nice work if you can get it... But if you don't have vertical speed or contested catch specialists, even with elite QB play your offense is going to look a lot like the Bills and Chiefs this year. A lot of horizontal passes that go nowhere and long periods of time where everything looks hard.

 

I don't agree we have the same caliber of pass catchers that we had last year. Diggs and Davis both have played worse this year than they did last year. For Davis in particular this is almost inexplicable but he has been flat out awful in several games this year. Shakir has been okay. Harty has been an afterthought. Sherfield never seems to know what route he's supposed to be running. Of those players only Shakir is better than the version of himself from last year but he's still a JAG.

 

I will agree the OL this year is the best of Allen's career, as is the running game. Brady is maximizing the personnel much better than Dorsey did too. It is not a talent devoid offense at the level of the Giants or the Panthers for example, but no one objective would say offensive talent is a strength of the team either. It is below par compared to other recent championship contenders.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

this year he  isn’t.  And that’s ok.  You know this.   It’s down year for him, I believe you’ve pointed that out 

Down year and he’s still a top 10 WR.  I’ve already pointed that out.  

46 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

No disrespect to Diggs, but I'd take Deebo over him any day.  

 

Samuel struggles with injuries, but when he's healthy, there isn't a better weapon at the position.

 

2021 - 77 rec 1405 6TDs 18.2ypc with another 365 rushing and 8 TDs.

 

Stef isn't that, especially not with Jimmy Garopollo at QB.

Deebo is in the best offense in football, with the best play caller in football.  Put deebo on the Bills and you see a different deebo.  He’s not a good route runner.  He’s a great runner with the ball

[buffblue]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Not this year though.

 

Hill

Brown

Jefferson

Chase

Cooper

Adams

Wilson

Samuel

 

Those are pretty clearly the most dominant WRs in the league right now, with varying degrees of QB play obviously.

 

Then you have guys in the next tier like Lamb, Evans, Aiyuk. Diggs is somewhere in that tier right now, for my money closer to the bottom than the top. He just hasn't been anywhere close to his dominant self in recent weeks.

 

So I really don't agree at all that we have a top 10 group of weapons. Middle of the pack IMO. Davis has been invisible in like half of our games this year. Kincaid is a rookie, any hopes that he would immediately take over as our #2 pass catcher have not come to fruition.

 

Honestly Cook might be our best skill player right now. If he can play as well as he did against the Cowboys for the rest of the season and through the playoffs, maybe we can be the first team in a long time to make it to the Super Bowl without a legitimate #2 pass catcher. That weakness certainly lowers the margin of error though.

I'm putting Lamb in that first group. He is a stud

[Chicken Boo]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Down year and he’s still a top 10 WR.  I’ve already pointed that out.  

Deebo is in the best offense in football, with the best play caller in football.  Put deebo on the Bills and you see a different deebo.  He’s not a good route runner.  He’s a great runner with the ball

 

I don't know.  I'm starting to think Brady would know what to do with him 😉

 

He's a playmaker.  Arguably, the best in football. 

[NewEra]

14 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

I don't know.  I'm starting to think Brady would know what to do with him 😉

 

He's a playmaker.  Arguably, the best in football. 

The niners oppositions have so much to worry about.  Cmc is the best playmaker in the game and he’s getting holes opened by the best LT in the game with plays getting gettting by the best play caller in the league while being flanked by Aiyuk and Kittle. 

 

We wouldn’t have any route runners if we traded Diggs for deebo.  Deebo would not be nearly as effective as our WR1.   Dudr is running wide open on 90 % of his catches and it’s not becssue he’s such a refined route runner.  
 

agree to disagree. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

The line, ESPN Analytics has them at 63% Pass Block win rate (6th), and 72% Run Block win rate (7th).

 

So a legitimate Top 10 offensive line. 
 

The entire McDermott era has featured a younger back, stuck behind a veteran. 
 

Cook has definitely broken out of that vice grip. Johnson, Murray (even Fournette) are a good rotation behind there - so much better than the Gore, Singletary, Moss days.

 

I am less sold on Kincaid’s season than most. He’s been okay, but I see him as mostly a background piece so far. He catches short passes, for not a lot of yardage. Joe Marino has talked about how he wants him to be the unquestioned #2 pass option next year and I’m not there at all.

 

Our WR group is 10-12th even with a high-level Diggs averaged in. Davis doesn’t come back for the ball, high point, or Moss anyone. He can catch a post route if he has 2-3 yards or separation, or a minimal separation comeback route. That’s all he does. He can go.

 

Shakir is ok.

 

Harty and Sherfield haven’t done enough to really hand out more than an Incomplete grade. They have virtually no role.
 

Harty had a nice 25-yard grab against the Chiefs. 

 

Needs are #2 WR, and best Offensive Lineman available.