Steelers Damontae Kazee Suspended Rest of Season

[Jukester]

Taylor Rapp better be careful

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

 

Absolutely brutal hit. Supposedly he's a repeat offender. Ineligible for any post season games as well. I'm sure there will be an appeal.

 

Yes on the repeat offender. 

 

Quote

NFL Vice President of Football Operations Jon Runyan explained the decision in a letter to Kazee, per NFL Communications. He noted that the hit against Pittman was "a serious violation" and blamed the Steelers safety for both hitting him forcibly in the helmet and while he was defenseless.

The video of the play shows that you delivered a forcible blow to the head/neck area of Colts’ receiver Michael Pittman Jr., who was in a defenseless posture. You had an unobstructed path to your opponent and the illegal contact could have been avoided. Your actions were flagrant, and as a result, you were disqualified from the game.

Runyan also noted that the violation was not Kazee's first. The 30-year-old safety had been fined twice during the season for impermissible use of the helmet and twice for hitting a defenseless receiver before the infraction he committed against Pittman.

That influenced Runyan to come down harder on the repeat offender than he would another player.

“When players violate the rules intended to protect player safety on a repeated basis, and particularly when the violations carry with them a significant risk of injury to an opposing player, it is appropriate to impose substantially greater penalties," Runyan wrote.

 

So 4 previous fines for similar.

 

Interestingly, Tom Brady has a different perspective:

 

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2023/12/18/pittsburgh-steelers-tom-brady-damontae-kazee-suspension-blame-gardner-minshew-nfl/

 

Quote

Nobody likes to see players get hurt. But hard hits happen. QBs should not be throwing the ball in areas where they are exposing their own teammates to these types of hits. Coaches need to coach better, QBs need to read coverages and throw the ball to the right places and defenders should aim for the right hitting areas. To put the blame on the defense player all the time is just flat out wrong. Need better QB play!! It’s not OK QBs to get your WRs hit because of your bad decisions!

 

I'm a little puzzled by Brady's take, anyone?

 

This is perhaps a better view on it.  I wince watching Pittman's body bend backward.  OTOH, the QB is leading the WR, maybe a bit much.  Should the WR not "lay out" for the ball?  Should the QB not lead the WR when a defender is in the position to run up and make the tackle?

 

 

 

Don't Shoot the Messenger, Friends.

 

I will say this: Rapp needs to clean up his ***** act, or we're going to be reading about his fines soon and his suspension not long after.

33 minutes ago, Jukester said:

Taylor Rapp better be careful

 

Right, that was my take.  The way he flew over a sliding Dak, striking his head on the way and then held out both arms like "look, I'm an innocent man".

Edited December 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[BearNorth]

1 hour ago, Rigotz said:

Prior to this hit, he was fined 5 separate times for unnecessary roughness this season.

 

Should we be concerned that Ed Oliver could be next?  He has 5 fines this season, three unsportsmanlike, 1 hit on QB, 1 Unnecessary roughness.

[Beck Water]

3 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

Should we be concerned that Ed Oliver could be next?  He has 5 fines this season, three unsportsmanlike, 1 hit on QB, 1 Unnecessary roughness.

 

@Rigotz is a bit mistaken according to head of football operations in that the specific fines were for "impermissable use of the helmet" and for hitting a defenseless receiver.  So I think it's the repeated instances of what they see as the same behavior.

 

But sure, we should be concerned if Oliver's fines are for repeated instances of the same thing vs. flexing in a guy's face or a legal hit that's late or something.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Well maybe the rule should be refreshed to include intent with these sort of hits that are known to be injury causing, what ya think in this sort of case?  

No, I would rather the refs not be required to try to interpret intent. Their job is already subjective enough. Give them clear rules to follow and enforce.

1 hour ago, Simon said:

The ridiculous call on the tough hit Shakir took yesterday is a good example of that.

Agree, although there was incidental contact to the head. When I watched that back I would have preferred a no call there.

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, Blackbeard said:

Very brutal.  And not condoning the hit like that.

 

What was his other option though?  Slow down and then hit him? (NOT being sarcastic)

I don't know maybe try to knock the ball loose with your right arm while making sure to down him with the left as you go around him to the left. Definitely not launch your self into his head/neck/spine that ***** was predatory.

 

 

[frostbitmic]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

Wow, suspended the rest of the season? That seems pretty harsh.

If it was week 3 instead of week 16 I'd agree with you, but this guy is a repeat offender, so time to hit him where it hurts ... the bank account.

[peterpan]

I gotta say it - that should be a clean hit. Defender didn’t do anything wrong, went low, not high.  Lead with his shoulder, not his helmet. No targeting like on other hits.

 

the defender can not control how the WRs acts/jumps/dives.  It happens too fast for the Defender to adjust.  The colts guy dove at the very last second and there’s just no way the defender could have altered his movement at all. 
 

The only other option for the defender is treat this like touch football, and stand there doing nothing. Is that really what people want?? 
 

I agree with Tom Brady (vomit in own mouth)- the offensive players should share responsibility for their own safety.  Maybe a penalty on the QB for throwing a dangerous ball?

[Paup 1995MVP]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

No...because you assume when you are putting your WR in a defenseless position when 3 defenders are bearing down on him that the worst is going to happen. That's one of the first rules you learn as a QB, not to put your receivers in those positions.  He will be getting an earful from his OC/QB coach today when they watch the film.

You really think Minshew is thinking all that as fast as everything is happening out there??

 

Thats on the DB.  If you want, blame whichever coach diagrammed the play.  Minshew is just trying to make a play to help his team win. 

[Paup 1995MVP]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Yes on the repeat offender. 

 

 

So 4 previous fines for similar.

 

Interestingly, Tom Brady has a different perspective:

 

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2023/12/18/pittsburgh-steelers-tom-brady-damontae-kazee-suspension-blame-gardner-minshew-nfl/

 

 

I'm a little puzzled by Brady's take, anyone?

 

This is perhaps a better view on it.  I wince watching Pittman's body bend backward.  OTOH, the QB is leading the WR, maybe a bit much.  Should the WR not "lay out" for the ball?  Should the QB not lead the WR when a defender is in the position to run up and make the tackle?

 

 

 

Don't Shoot the Messenger, Friends.

 

I will say this: Rapp needs to clean up his ***** act, or we're going to be reading about his fines soon and his suspension not long after.

 

Right, that was my take.  The way he flew over a sliding Dak, striking his head on the way and then held out both arms like "look, I'm an innocent man".

He barely skimmed his helmet.  That was a weak call.  Good for Rapp.  Prescott is a *****, who is soft as Peanut Butter. 
 

We have been soft for far too long on defense.  We sent a big message to the Cowboys,  And to the rest of the NFL yesterday.  This is our house. And we are going to beat you down when we play you.  Better buckle your chin strap because you are in for a long day.  Did you see the look on their eyes by the second half?  The Cowboys wanted nothing to do w us.  

 

Having a mean bad ass team in 2023 NFL football is a beautiful thing.  Embrace it. 
 

 

[DrBob806]

5 hours ago, Rigotz said:

The penalty seemed a little harsh ... until I looked at his history:

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/steelers/news/nfl-fines-pittsburgh-steelers-damontae-kazee-fifth-time#:~:text=Kazee was one of nine,of which have been %2411%2C806.

 

Prior to this hit, he was fined 5 separate times for unnecessary roughness this season.

 

There's a clear history and intent here. This last one could have paralyzed his opponent. The suspension was the correct move.

It's "the Steeler Way"

 

Cheap shots since 1972. Donnie Shell, roid-rage Harrison, even Hines Ward. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

Is he a cousin of…

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

He got suspended for the rest of the year due to repeat offender, not necessarily for the severity of this one play.  

 

If you watch the play in slow-mo, it doesn't look egregious to me.  I mean what is a player supposed to do there, he went low and tucked his head.  Not his fault the pass was bad and Pittman had to lay out for it and it caused them to collide head to head low to the ground.  In fact, this is about as textbook as you can get in terms of how you should hit the player in this situation.

 

Im all for player safety, but the NFL has literally made tackling a player in certain situations basically impossible.  If a player lays out like this for example, he is pretty much untouchable without risking a flag for contact to the head, defenseless receiver etc.  The only sure solution for the defender is just let them make the catch...but what is the point of that in terms of the sport?  

 

There is no possible way to fairly remove all big hits or vulnerable hits from football without completely compromising the game.  

 

That being said...like Danny Green in the NBA, you don't get the benefit of the doubt when you are a repeat offender.  So even if this play wasn't worthy of being suspended rest of year, he earned that extra scrutiny through repeat offenses.  

Edited December 19, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Bob Jones]

3 hours ago, Beck Water said:

I will say this: Rapp needs to clean up his ***** act, or we're going to be reading about his fines soon and his suspension not long after.

 

Right, that was my take.  The way he flew over a sliding Dak, striking his head on the way and then held out both arms like "look, I'm an innocent man".

On the Rapp play: he did exactly what any good DB should do, and that is exert maximum force on a runner...ANY runner...when that runner is flying down the field trying to advance the ball.

 

On the play in question Dak was FIVE YARDS PAST the 1st down marker, was near the sideline, and could have easily just went out of bounds untouched, but he didn't. Instead, he turned left, toward the middle of the field, seeking to get more yards, and at that point Bills defenders are coming at him full speed to try and get him. And at the very last moment Dak decided to slide down. Sorry but a DB coming at full speed can't stop on a dime. Rapp *may* have done some dumb things prior to this game, but he did absolutely nothing wrong on that play.

[Simon]

27 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Im all for player safety, but the NFL has literally made tackling a player in certain situations basically impossible.  If a player lays out like this for example, he is pretty much untouchable without risking a flag for contact to the head, defenseless receiver etc.  The only sure solution for the defender is just let them make the catch...but what is the point of that in terms of the sport?  

 

It's trickier but I think you can still make a play there without getting called:

 

> Stop dropping your head and leading with your crown; keep your head up and lead with your face and chest. If you are afraid to put your face in the fan, take up a different sport.

> Keep your arms outside your body, not tucked in so you look like a launched missile. Even making the effort to just look like your wrapping up gets you some benefit of the doubt.

> Push one fist through the passcatchers sternum area; again, if you like like you're playing the ball instead of hunting killshots you'll get some benefit of the doubt.

 

The era of leading with your shoulder and the crown of your helmet is over and the sooner players and coaches at all levels accept that, the better off everybody will be. You can still thump people at high speed, you just can't do it with your hat anymore because a helmet is no longer a weapon. Guys have to understand and accept that, then cowboy up and start having the guts/instincts to attack opponents face up.

 

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

It's trickier but I think you can still make a play there without getting called:

 

> Stop dropping your head and leading with your crown; keep your head up and lead with your face and chest. If you are afraid to put your face in the fan, take up a different sport.

> Keep your arms outside your body, not tucked in so you look like a launched missile. Even making the effort to just look like your wrapping up gets you some benefit of the doubt.

> Push one fist through the passcatchers sternum area; again, if you like like you're playing the ball instead of hunting killshots you'll get some benefit of the doubt.

 

The era of leading with your shoulder and the crown of your helmet is over and the sooner players and coaches at all levels accept that, the better off everybody will be. You can still thump people at high speed, you just can't do it with your hat anymore because a helmet is no longer a weapon. Guys have to understand and accept that, then cowboy up and start having the guts/instincts to attack opponents face up.

 

I don’t disagree with you here about these principles, you’re correct.  
 

However my counter point would be specifically on this play, he appears to me to be turning his head away from the contact.

 

Second counter point, it’s much easier to say this than it is to execute in fractions of a second in a live action game too.  Which is why I said it’s almost impossible to hit a guy in this situation without a high probability of drawing a flag.  

[Simon]

17 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

However my counter point would be specifically on this play, he appears to me to be turning his head away from the contact.

 

I think what guys are failing to understand (or more likely, don't want to understand) is that the problem is occurring way before that point where he turned his head away from contact at impact. In the live view of the network broadcast (it's in Beck Water's response at teh top of this page)you can see him breaking down at about the 2-3 second mark when he's about 3/4 yrds from the receiver. At the moment he breaks down he already has his head out in front of the rest of his body with his face down and his crown out front. At that point he's already f***** and any adjustments he makes from there are inconsequential. Guys just need to understand that they can no longer drop their heads to attack ballcarriers or passcatchers.

I understand that going into a collision with your face up goes against every instinct we have, despite the fact that it's actually "safer" (you can keep playing with a broken nose, not so much with a broken neck). That's why I made the mention of "all levels" because it's going to take time to train years of habit out of defenders and the best way to do it is to start young and teach kids to keep their heads up and that there is honor in being willing to stick your face in the fan.

 

I will admit that this particular situation was unusually tricky with a receiver who is diving at knee level. You certainly aren't going to just concede the catch but it's hard to break down and stay vertical that low to the ground while maintaining your closing speed. His best bet to avoid a flag was probably to maintain speed but rotate as he was coming in so initial contact was with the back of his shoulder while his head was not out front. Of course that's pretty easy for me to say while I'm sitting here with my feet up on the desk working my way through a box of freezer pops. 

[peterpan]

59 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I think what guys are failing to understand (or more likely, don't want to understand) is that the problem is occurring way before that point where he turned his head away from contact at impact. In the live view of the network broadcast (it's in Beck Water's response at teh top of this page)you can see him breaking down at about the 2-3 second mark when he's about 3/4 yrds from the receiver. At the moment he breaks down he already has his head out in front of the rest of his body with his face down and his crown out front. At that point he's already f***** and any adjustments he makes from there are inconsequential. Guys just need to understand that they can no longer drop their heads to attack ballcarriers or passcatchers.

I understand that going into a collision with your face up goes against every instinct we have, despite the fact that it's actually "safer" (you can keep playing with a broken nose, not so much with a broken neck). That's why I made the mention of "all levels" because it's going to take time to train years of habit out of defenders and the best way to do it is to start young and teach kids to keep their heads up and that there is honor in being willing to stick your face in the fan.

 

I will admit that this particular situation was unusually tricky with a receiver who is diving at knee level. You certainly aren't going to just concede the catch but it's hard to break down and stay vertical that low to the ground while maintaining your closing speed. His best bet to avoid a flag was probably to maintain speed but rotate as he was coming in so initial contact was with the back of his shoulder while his head was not out front. Of course that's pretty easy for me to say while I'm sitting here with my feet up on the desk working my way through a box of freezer pops. 

But that’s a penalty too— hitting someone else’s helmet with your face mask.  It’s completely proper technique I agree, but they flag it as helmet to helmet every week.  So plays can’t do that, they won’t let it be a solution.

 

and look at this guy, complaining about this hit?!?!?!? 

 

even the Colts DB coach thinks it’s kinda bogus:

 

Colts assistant defensive backs coach Mike Mitchell also shared some thoughts on X, formerly Twitter, saying that the role of players in coverage is being weakened by the NFL's rulings. He spent a decade in the NFL as a defensive back, including time with the Colts and Steelers.

ADVERTISEMENT

"I don’t know what to tell my safeties anymore," he said in a series of posts. "I guess just let them catch it. If I were a WR I would dive for every catch. That would ensure no contact and a completed pass. Playing deep safety in today’s nfl where rules are made mostly by people who’ve never played is tough.

"I love Pittman to life. Before you guys go to crazy I’m all for player safety and making the game safer and better for the current players. I watch my best friend get paralyzed playing this game. I was just saying it’s extremely tough to play safety in today’s league… #GoColts."

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/tom-brady-points-finger-colts-225356933.html

 

[Big Turk]

7 hours ago, K-9 said:

Any QB worth his salt would say he needs to make a better throw in that situation. But QBs make those throws all the time. Minshew missed. Simple as that. It was a poor throw, not a poor decision because the receiver found the open area in the zone and that’s where the ball is supposed to go. 

 

Not according to Tom Brady, but hey, what the hell does he know...he is only the best to ever do it...guess I should listen to the random internet dude who knows so much more.

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nfl/article-12873393/tom-brady-damontae-kazee-colts-steelers-nfl.html

Edited December 19, 2023 by Big Turk

[RyanC883]

8 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Bad throw, bad ball position and leading his receiver into a defenseless position where he is likely to get murdered.  It was a bad throw with inaccurate ball placement and serving his receiver up on a silver platter to get hit hard without the ability to protect himself. So yes, that's bad QB play and there won't be one actual QB that played in the NFL that says otherwise.

 

yeah, even Brady (vomit) said this. 

The WR was the one “out of control,” there was nothing the DB could do in this situation.  He led with the shoulder.