The DB Dilemma

[BrooklynBills]

13 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I believe that Dugger and Poyer play the same SS role so that would mean moving on from Poyer. I haven’t watched Dugger’s play so I don’t have an opinion on him, but I would not mind getting younger at S - especially if the money is right. 

 

I think Poyer is going to retire after this season.  We could ALOT of changeover in the secondary next year.

[Logic]

Put simply: If there's one area of the roster that I'm simply not concerned about as long as Sean McDermott is around, it's defensive backs.

I expect Douglas, Benford, Elam, and Jackson will be the outside quartet next season, with Taron Johnson at nickel and some late round camp competition brought in. Unfortunately, it may be time to bid farewell to the beloved TreDavious White. I wish it wasn't so, but the Bills have to find places to cut salary.

At safety, Hyde and Poyer will likely be gone, and McDermott will likely fill one spot through free agency (maybe Rapp, maybe someone else) and one spot through the draft. He'll coach the new guys up, as he always does with safeties. There will be a dip in production and cohesiveness early on, but once they get up to speed, it'll be all systems ago.

For whatever other deficiencies may exist across the roster going forward, call me crazy, but I'm not too worried about the DB room.

[Solomon Grundy]

23 hours ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

We have Douglas for one year because after '24  I think he is going to get pretty big money.

 

If Tre is gone and we have room maybe we pay.

 

I like him a lot.

 

 

 

 

Elam, Douglas, Jackson, Rapp, Johnson and Benford are returning in my scenario. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

23 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Our DB room is way too fascinating for me to save this thread for the summer time. Do we have a position group with as many offseason storylines as our Defensive backs?

 

Micah Hyde will be 33 in a few weeks and is a free agent this summer. Father Time has started to catch up to him, and the team simply cannot have this starting safety duo back again next year. I have so much love and respect for Hyde (and Poyer), but I think their time is done barring a late season P-Squad signing for depth. 
 

Jordan Poyer is in the same boat. He is under contract for 2024, but a release saves the team 5m during an offseason where they are pretty far in the hole. He, like Hyde, is relying off instinct and intelligence right now over athletic ability. Neither is done athletically, but they’ve lost some of their juice. The team could hang on to Poyer, he’s a defensive Swiss Army knife and I like him in this weird “other nickel” roll he’s been doing with Taron Johnson and Nard-dog.  I wouldn’t hate seeing him as the primary backup for both FS and SS. Behind who, you say? 
 

Christian Benford, right now as a second year former 6th round pick, is a solid CB. That is a huge win. He isn’t spectacular, he is dependable though. There are plenty of games this year where he only has 0-3 targets. There is a very good shot he stays the teams #2 CB, but imagine for a moment what he looks like at SS? 6’1’’ 205, sound tackler (hasn’t missed a single tackle in 2023) and sound in zone coverage. I don’t know if the Bills create a hole to fill a hole, but CB lining up at CB may depend on someone else.

 

Kaiir Elam wasn’t traded, I think that’s worth mentioning. I don’t think the Bills will give up on the kid without trying everything first. I believe he competes for the #2 CB role again, but given the log jam at CB and the depletion at Safety, I think there is a shot he, at minimum, gets a mention at FS. Elite athlete and has ball skills, FS could be a good home for him if Benford stays at CB2. He has a narrative for being a poor tackler, but the numbers don’t support it. Outside his first month in the NFL, his missed tackle rate is actually pretty low. I’ll admit, my X’s and O’s knowledge is limited and there is wayyyy more that goes into a CB-FS transition than ball skills and athleticism, but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless. 
 

Taron Johnson is basically a mini-LB and Dane Jackson is fine as a primary perimeter CB backup. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. If Elam and Benford both stay at CB, maybe the team experiment with Jackson at Safety but I don’t think he is consistent enough week in and week out to hold down a new position full time. I will say, he’s got the intensity for it. 
 

I’m not sure that they view Damar Hamlin as an every down starter at SS, seeing he’s been inactive every game. 
 

Tre White is the ultimate wildcard. He’s still in his prime age wise, he will be 29 in January. His injuries are well noted, I have no idea when we may see him return. He was looking pretty good before he got hurt, there is no question a healthy Tre White is our CB1. Releasing Tre saves 6m, but I’d be willing to bet he would re-work his deal to stay on the team. There are some players that you don’t bet against when it comes to overcoming injuries, Take Away Tre is one of them. Could Tre move to Safety? There is a difference between being a poor tackler and being an unwilling one. 
 

What are your thoughts? Do we bring back Hyde/Poyer? Do we keep the log jam at CB? Where would Christian Benford be utilized best? Will Tre White come back from this injury or is 6 million in cap savings too much to ignore? What would you try with Elam? 
 

🦬

1) Hyde: retiring. I would force this if I were the Bills. The neck and stinger issues are worrisome.

 

2) Poyer: back for one more year, to help new guys learn system.

 

3) Everyone else stays. Re Tre, they are keeping him. This guy is the heart and soul of this team, and they aren’t cutting a guy like that because of injury. 
 

[BBFL]

23 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Our DB room is way too fascinating for me to save this thread for the summer time. Do we have a position group with as many offseason storylines as our Defensive backs?

 

Micah Hyde will be 33 in a few weeks and is a free agent this summer. Father Time has started to catch up to him, and the team simply cannot have this starting safety duo back again next year. I have so much love and respect for Hyde (and Poyer), but I think their time is done barring a late season P-Squad signing for depth. 
 

Jordan Poyer is in the same boat. He is under contract for 2024, but a release saves the team 5m during an offseason where they are pretty far in the hole. He, like Hyde, is relying off instinct and intelligence right now over athletic ability. Neither is done athletically, but they’ve lost some of their juice. The team could hang on to Poyer, he’s a defensive Swiss Army knife and I like him in this weird “other nickel” roll he’s been doing with Taron Johnson and Nard-dog.  I wouldn’t hate seeing him as the primary backup for both FS and SS. Behind who, you say? 
 

Christian Benford, right now as a second year former 6th round pick, is a solid CB. That is a huge win. He isn’t spectacular, he is dependable though. There are plenty of games this year where he only has 0-3 targets. There is a very good shot he stays the teams #2 CB, but imagine for a moment what he looks like at SS? 6’1’’ 205, sound tackler (hasn’t missed a single tackle in 2023) and sound in zone coverage. I don’t know if the Bills create a hole to fill a hole, but CB lining up at CB may depend on someone else.

 

Kaiir Elam wasn’t traded, I think that’s worth mentioning. I don’t think the Bills will give up on the kid without trying everything first. I believe he competes for the #2 CB role again, but given the log jam at CB and the depletion at Safety, I think there is a shot he, at minimum, gets a mention at FS. Elite athlete and has ball skills, FS could be a good home for him if Benford stays at CB2. He has a narrative for being a poor tackler, but the numbers don’t support it. Outside his first month in the NFL, his missed tackle rate is actually pretty low. I’ll admit, my X’s and O’s knowledge is limited and there is wayyyy more that goes into a CB-FS transition than ball skills and athleticism, but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless. 
 

Taron Johnson is basically a mini-LB and Dane Jackson is fine as a primary perimeter CB backup. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. If Elam and Benford both stay at CB, maybe the team experiment with Jackson at Safety but I don’t think he is consistent enough week in and week out to hold down a new position full time. I will say, he’s got the intensity for it. 
 

I’m not sure that they view Damar Hamlin as an every down starter at SS, seeing he’s been inactive every game. 
 

Tre White is the ultimate wildcard. He’s still in his prime age wise, he will be 29 in January. His injuries are well noted, I have no idea when we may see him return. He was looking pretty good before he got hurt, there is no question a healthy Tre White is our CB1. Releasing Tre saves 6m, but I’d be willing to bet he would re-work his deal to stay on the team. There are some players that you don’t bet against when it comes to overcoming injuries, Take Away Tre is one of them. Could Tre move to Safety? There is a difference between being a poor tackler and being an unwilling one. 
 

What are your thoughts? Do we bring back Hyde/Poyer? Do we keep the log jam at CB? Where would Christian Benford be utilized best? Will Tre White come back from this injury or is 6 million in cap savings too much to ignore? What would you try with Elam? 
 

🦬

Great post that covers valuable points on each player. 
 

I think it comes down to one or the other if the salaries are the same in Hyde/Poyer; leadership and ability to stay on the field. That nod goes to Poyer. Hopefully Hyde comes back on a cheap deal to have a crack at a SB if it doesn’t pan out this year. 
 

Benford is decent at CB. Can’t see them moving him elsewhere especially if that cap hit to Tre is something they move on from. 
 

2¢

[DrDawkinstein]

23 hours ago, Rigotz said:

I think we have to break this into three position groups:

 

Safety:

Micah Hyde - Free agent, going on 34, nagging injuries and lost a step. Gone.

Jordan Poyer - Cutting saves $5.5M. $2M dead cap. Gone.

Rapp - Free agent - Gone.

Hamlin - Last year of cheap contract. Maaaaaybe practice squad, otherwise gone.

Need 2 new starters and maybe 2 backups.

 

Slot Corner:

1) Taron Johnson - last year of extension, due $12M. I bet we extend him.

Need depth, maybe in late rounds?

 

Outside Corner:

1) Christian Benford - Solid 1/2 and under contract 2 more years. Injury concerns.

2) Rasul Douglas - Rock solid 2 and under contract for next year. No reason to extend yet.

3) Kaiir Elam - This is the upside guy you groom behind 1 and 2.  No reason to cut or trade.

4) Dane Jackson - Meh. Expired contract, would welcome him back on vet min for depth.

5) Tre White - cut or ideally injury settlement. Love you Tre.

Need injury insurance for Benford and ideally a stronger #1 corner. Is Elam that guy?

 

Thus, safety is the big need. Corner depth and hopefully upside can be found in late rounds.

 

To those suggesting we cut Kaiir Elam... why?

 

He has raw talent and is on a relatively cheap contract. It's an $8M dead cap hit to cut him and $3.7M to keep him on the roster next year. Why the hell would you pay double to not have him?

 

You nailed it.

 

The only thing I'd add is I'm open to offering Tre a 3/$18M deal with like $12M guaranteed. If for no other reason than to save us drafting a CB early.

 

We'll definitely need 3-4 new Safeties so I expect at least 2 drafted.

 

Or we re-sign Dane and Tre, move Douglas into Hyde's spot, and draft a CB in the early-mid rounds.

 

It will be real interesting to see what they do about the Defensive Backfield this offseason.

[FireChans]

50 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

You nailed it.

 

The only thing I'd add is I'm open to offering Tre a 3/$18M deal with like $12M guaranteed. If for no other reason than to save us drafting a CB early.

 

We'll definitely need 3-4 new Safeties so I expect at least 2 drafted.

 

Or we re-sign Dane and Tre, move Douglas into Hyde's spot, and draft a CB in the early-mid rounds.

 

It will be real interesting to see what they do about the Defensive Backfield this offseason.

Do we really need Tre to prevent us from drafting CB early? He won’t play week 1, and won’t round into form for a while, so I’m not sure how that’s helpful.

 

Dane Jackson would be the one preventing us from drafting a CB early, imo. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Do we really need Tre to prevent us from drafting CB early? He won’t play week 1, and won’t round into form for a while, so I’m not sure how that’s helpful.

 

Dane Jackson would be the one preventing us from drafting a CB early, imo. 

 

Sure, either or both. There was just more to type about the Tre situation.

 

I do think re-signing Tre will push our CB pick back to the 4th or after. If it's just Dane, then I could see us looking for the better talent in the 3rd or even 2nd.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Sure, either or both. There was just more to type about the Tre situation.

 

I do think re-signing Tre will push our CB pick back to the 4th or after. If it's just Dane, then I could see us looking for the better talent in the 3rd or even 2nd.

 

 

I don’t see that high of a pick as a need for a guy who almost certainly won’t start. 
 

Our CB room is actually pretty roomy. I think Douglas and Benford are penciled in as starters. Anything above a third would surprise me, even if Tre is cut.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBills said:

 

I think Poyer is going to retire after this season.  We could ALOT of changeover in the secondary next year.

 

Poyer is due $5.5M in new money for 2024. I think that makes it worthwhile for the Bills to keep him and for him to play it out and then retire. However, you certainly could be correct. Maybe his body is telling him to step away now. Or maybe the Bills don’t want him back at that price - or even at all. Hyde’s contract is up so having some continuity at safety might play into it. Honestly, none of those outcomes would surprise me. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

13 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I don’t see that high of a pick as a need for a guy who almost certainly won’t start. 
 

Our CB room is actually pretty roomy. I think Douglas and Benford are penciled in as starters. Anything above a third would surprise me, even if Tre is cut.

Definitely, if it is Douglas/Benford then a starting caliber safety can easily be had in rounds 2 or even 3. 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, BrooklynBills said:

I think Poyer is going to retire after this season.  We could ALOT of changeover in the secondary next year.

 

What makes you say that about Poyer?

 

Hyde is a free agent after this season.  The Bills will have dead money on the books for him, which will remain dead money (I think) even if they re-sign him.  Hyde has 2 young kids, the neck surgery clearly haven't prevented him from having neck and back issues, and you'd think he might decide it's time to hang up his cleats while he can still play catch with his kids and teach them to ride bikes.

 

Poyer is under contract to the Bills in 2024.  He's got ~$5M in new money coming into his bank account next season.  I don't think he willingly gives that up.

Edited December 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[Mango]

You didn't mention anything about Douglas. I would be shocked if the Bills did not extend him. 

[DrDawkinstein]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

You didn't mention anything about Douglas. I would be shocked if the Bills did not extend him. 

 

We have him under contract next year either way. But yes, it would make a ton of sense to give him a couple more years and some guaranteed money, and drop that cap hit next year from $9M to maybe something closer to $5M.

[Beck Water]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:32 AM, wppete said:

Hyde, Poyer and Tre need to be cut. Give Elam another chance and maybe move him to Sefety. 

 

Hyde will not be cut.  He can not be cut.  He will be a FA

[wppete]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Hyde will not be cut.  He can not be cut.  He will be a FA

He should retire. 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Hyde will not be cut.  He can not be cut.  He will be a FA

 

[Beck Water]

On 12/13/2023 at 10:29 AM, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Our DB room is way too fascinating for me to save this thread for the summer time. Do we have a position group with as many offseason storylines as our Defensive backs?

 

Micah Hyde will be 33 in a few weeks and is a free agent this summer. Father Time has started to catch up to him, and the team simply cannot have this starting safety duo back again next year. I have so much love and respect for Hyde (and Poyer), but I think their time is done barring a late season P-Squad signing for depth. 
 

Jordan Poyer is in the same boat. He is under contract for 2024, but a release saves the team 5m during an offseason where they are pretty far in the hole. He, like Hyde, is relying off instinct and intelligence right now over athletic ability. Neither is done athletically, but they’ve lost some of their juice. The team could hang on to Poyer, he’s a defensive Swiss Army knife and I like him in this weird “other nickel” roll he’s been doing with Taron Johnson and Nard-dog.  I wouldn’t hate seeing him as the primary backup for both FS and SS. Behind who, you say? 
 

Christian Benford, right now as a second year former 6th round pick, is a solid CB. That is a huge win. He isn’t spectacular, he is dependable though. There are plenty of games this year where he only has 0-3 targets. There is a very good shot he stays the teams #2 CB, but imagine for a moment what he looks like at SS? 6’1’’ 205, sound tackler (hasn’t missed a single tackle in 2023) and sound in zone coverage. I don’t know if the Bills create a hole to fill a hole, but CB lining up at CB may depend on someone else.

 

Kaiir Elam wasn’t traded, I think that’s worth mentioning. I don’t think the Bills will give up on the kid without trying everything first. I believe he competes for the #2 CB role again, but given the log jam at CB and the depletion at Safety, I think there is a shot he, at minimum, gets a mention at FS. Elite athlete and has ball skills, FS could be a good home for him if Benford stays at CB2. He has a narrative for being a poor tackler, but the numbers don’t support it. Outside his first month in the NFL, his missed tackle rate is actually pretty low. I’ll admit, my X’s and O’s knowledge is limited and there is wayyyy more that goes into a CB-FS transition than ball skills and athleticism, but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless. 
 

Taron Johnson is basically a mini-LB and Dane Jackson is fine as a primary perimeter CB backup. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. If Elam and Benford both stay at CB, maybe the team experiment with Jackson at Safety but I don’t think he is consistent enough week in and week out to hold down a new position full time. I will say, he’s got the intensity for it. 
 

I’m not sure that they view Damar Hamlin as an every down starter at SS, seeing he’s been inactive every game. 
 

Tre White is the ultimate wildcard. He’s still in his prime age wise, he will be 29 in January. His injuries are well noted, I have no idea when we may see him return. He was looking pretty good before he got hurt, there is no question a healthy Tre White is our CB1. Releasing Tre saves 6m, but I’d be willing to bet he would re-work his deal to stay on the team. There are some players that you don’t bet against when it comes to overcoming injuries, Take Away Tre is one of them. Could Tre move to Safety? There is a difference between being a poor tackler and being an unwilling one. 
 

What are your thoughts? Do we bring back Hyde/Poyer? Do we keep the log jam at CB? Where would Christian Benford be utilized best? Will Tre White come back from this injury or is 6 million in cap savings too much to ignore? What would you try with Elam? 
 

🦬

 

This is a great post, thanks for putting this together.

 

Three players you don't mention: 

Rasul Douglas, who is still under contract for 2024.  I would be shocked if the Bills don't extend him.  I think he's played very well, and would certainly be our #1 CB if Tre White can't come back (and maybe even fight for the #1 spot if Tre does come back)

 

Taylor Rapp, who will be a free agent.  I see him as a mixed bag.  He can make plays, yes, but the Friendly Fire, Man!  Sheesh!

 

Cam Lewis.  He has caused many Bills fans PTSD with some big misses in his play. He will be a free agent.  The Bills have him as the primary backup at NCB and at Safety, ahead of Damar Hamlin.  He can also play boundary CB in a pinch.  The Bills love his versatility.

 

3 minutes ago, wppete said:

[Hyde]
He should retire. 

 

I agree

Edited December 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[DrDawkinstein]

21 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

Poyer is due $5.5M in new money for 2024. I think that makes it worthwhile for the Bills to keep him and for him to play it out and then retire. However, you certainly could be correct. Maybe his body is telling him to step away now. Or maybe the Bills don’t want him back at that price - or even at all. Hyde’s contract is up so having some continuity at safety might play into it. Honestly, none of those outcomes would surprise me. 

 

Poyer is a $7.5M hit if he stays, or a $2M hit if cut, and we are strapped for cash. He's as good as gone. And should be. He's a shell back there this year, it will only be worse next year.

 

[MrEpsYtown]

3 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I'm going to make a very bold prediction. If (and it is a big if) he hits FA, one of those safety spots next season will be filled by Kyle Duggar. I almost am positive if he's not re-signed by NE he would be a priority FA for Beane, who it's reported really liked him coming out of the draft. 

 

Let's make signs and recruit him Takeo Spikes style during our NE game. I like him.