The DB Dilemma

[Billzgobowlin]

Just now, NewEra said:

I don’t think his play is a liability but I worry that his penchant for neck injuries is.  Might be tough to pay him more than 5M per knowing that.  

Agreed.  I have to believe the stingers result from the injury last year.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

White, Hyde, and Poyer all gone. Rapp and Hamlin are probably gone too.  

Johnson is so underrated on this board. He plays the hardest position on the defense and is excellent 

Douglas and Jackson are your starters

Benford moves to safety. Sign a veteran and draft a middle round guy to develop. 

Elam is traded and has a bright future elsewhere or maybe they give him a legit chance to play next year. 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

I think we have to break this into three position groups:

 

Safety:

Micah Hyde - Free agent, going on 34, nagging injuries and lost a step. Gone.

Jordan Poyer - Cutting saves $5.5M. $2M dead cap. Gone.

Rapp - Free agent - Gone.

Hamlin - Last year of cheap contract. Maaaaaybe practice squad, otherwise gone.

Need 2 new starters and maybe 2 backups.

 

Slot Corner:

1) Taron Johnson - last year of extension, due $12M. I bet we extend him.

Need depth, maybe in late rounds?

 

Outside Corner:

1) Christian Benford - Solid 1/2 and under contract 2 more years. Injury concerns.

2) Rasul Douglas - Rock solid 2 and under contract for next year. No reason to extend yet.

3) Kaiir Elam - This is the upside guy you groom behind 1 and 2.  No reason to cut or trade.

4) Dane Jackson - Meh. Expired contract, would welcome him back on vet min for depth.

5) Tre White - cut or ideally injury settlement. Love you Tre.

Need injury insurance for Benford and ideally a stronger #1 corner. Is Elam that guy?

 

Thus, safety is the big need. Corner depth and hopefully upside can be found in late rounds.

 

To those suggesting we cut Kaiir Elam... why?

 

He has raw talent and is on a relatively cheap contract. It's an $8M dead cap hit to cut him and $3.7M to keep him on the roster next year. Why the hell would you pay double to not have him?

You trade him post 6/1 and save a couple million. Conditional 7th type deal.

[BuffaloBillyG]

4 minutes ago, Billzgobowlin said:

Has that been talked about anywhere but on here?

Yup. Both Beane and McDermott have addressed it several times. Said it's in play. My personal feeling is if Elam had caught on and been a starter Benford would have made the move already, but that hasn't happened due to Elam not moving past him.

4 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Beford is locked in at CB2, I think. A rehabbed Tre may not even be ready for season start. 
 

You don’t bank on a 29 year old CB coming off his second major injury in a row, and move the starter to a different position. 
 

They will not do this, even if they keep Tre (which they probably won’t)

Which is why I also said to bring back Dane Jackson, who they are comfortable with, as well as a day 2 pick and FA. Load up and let it sort out. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

26 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Our DB room is way too fascinating for me to save this thread for the summer time. Do we have a position group with as many offseason storylines as our Defensive backs?

 

Micah Hyde will be 33 in a few weeks and is a free agent this summer. Father Time has started to catch up to him, and the team simply cannot have this starting safety duo back again next year. I have so much love and respect for Hyde (and Poyer), but I think their time is done barring a late season P-Squad signing for depth. 
 

Jordan Poyer is in the same boat. He is under contract for 2024, but a release saves the team 5m during an offseason where they are pretty far in the hole. He, like Hyde, is relying off instinct and intelligence right now over athletic ability. Neither is done athletically, but they’ve lost some of their juice. The team could hang on to Poyer, he’s a defensive Swiss Army knife and I like him in this weird “other nickel” roll he’s been doing with Taron Johnson and Nard-dog.  I wouldn’t hate seeing him as the primary backup for both FS and SS. Behind who, you say? 
 

Christian Benford, right now as a second year former 6th round pick, is a solid CB. That is a huge win. He isn’t spectacular, he is dependable though. There are plenty of games this year where he only has 0-3 targets. There is a very good shot he stays the teams #2 CB, but imagine for a moment what he looks like at SS? 6’1’’ 205, sound tackler (hasn’t missed a single tackle in 2023) and sound in zone coverage. I don’t know if the Bills create a hole to fill a hole, but CB lining up at CB may depend on someone else.

 

Kaiir Elam wasn’t traded, I think that’s worth mentioning. I don’t think the Bills will give up on the kid without trying everything first. I believe he competes for the #2 CB role again, but given the log jam at CB and the depletion at Safety, I think there is a shot he, at minimum, gets a mention at FS. Elite athlete and has ball skills, FS could be a good home for him if Benford stays at CB2. He has a narrative for being a poor tackler, but the numbers don’t support it. Outside his first month in the NFL, his missed tackle rate is actually pretty low. I’ll admit, my X’s and O’s knowledge is limited and there is wayyyy more that goes into a CB-FS transition than ball skills and athleticism, but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless. 
 

Taron Johnson is basically a mini-LB and Dane Jackson is fine as a primary perimeter CB backup. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. If Elam and Benford both stay at CB, maybe the team experiment with Jackson at Safety but I don’t think he is consistent enough week in and week out to hold down a new position full time. I will say, he’s got the intensity for it. 
 

I’m not sure that they view Damar Hamlin as an every down starter at SS, seeing he’s been inactive every game. 
 

Tre White is the ultimate wildcard. He’s still in his prime age wise, he will be 29 in January. His injuries are well noted, I have no idea when we may see him return. He was looking pretty good before he got hurt, there is no question a healthy Tre White is our CB1. Releasing Tre saves 6m, but I’d be willing to bet he would re-work his deal to stay on the team. There are some players that you don’t bet against when it comes to overcoming injuries, Take Away Tre is one of them. Could Tre move to Safety? There is a difference between being a poor tackler and being an unwilling one. 
 

What are your thoughts? Do we bring back Hyde/Poyer? Do we keep the log jam at CB? Where would Christian Benford be utilized best? Will Tre White come back from this injury or is 6 million in cap savings too much to ignore? What would you try with Elam? 
 

🦬

Douglas can plug a hole for a couple years… corner or safety imo

 

[FireChans]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Yup. Both Beane and McDermott have addressed it several times. Said it's in play. My personal feeling is if Elam had caught on and been a starter Benford would have made the move already, but that hasn't happened due to Elam not moving past him.

Which is why I also said to bring back Dane Jackson, who they are comfortable with, as well as a day 2 pick and FA. Load up and let it sort out. 

Bring back Tre, bring in an FA, bring back Dane, and move Benford to safety is your positional plan rather than just bring in a safety and keep Benford at CB?

 

Not sure your plan makes much sense.

[balln]

You can not. Can not. Pay these players for what THeY have done or what ever intangible stuff. This is where McD and Beane have to evolve and be less culture and more cut throat. 

 

tre white off an acl and Achilles is a risky  player to roster at the price your paying. He needs a drastic pay cut / contract reworking or flat out release

 

poyer and Hyde need replacing. Poyer is cut. Let them see that no other team will be  paying them. And bills prepared to fill w draft and convert benford or elam. Then circle back to see if they want to take a vet min contract for depth.

 

rapp sucks - he was touted as a poor coverage and slow player but great tackler. Well he’s sucked at tackling this year. And if he does hit someone it’s usually injuring himself or his teammate. Do NOT sign him.

 

 

 

 

[mannc]

27 minutes ago, MJS said:

Safety is going to be a major target in the off season. The hope was for Rapp to prove himself, but he hasn't, so he is not a viable replacement.

 

I was hoping that Hyde would return to form, but he is not the player he was and his continued neck issues are scary. That dude needs to retire.

 

Poyer would be fine for next year if they wanted to keep one of them for one more year of continuity.

Absolutely.  We will definitely draft one in the first two days and probably another on day 3.  And maybe sign a free agent safety as well.    

[JohnNord]

32 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Our DB room is way too fascinating for me to save this thread for the summer time. Do we have a position group with as many offseason storylines as our Defensive backs?

 

Micah Hyde will be 33 in a few weeks and is a free agent this summer. Father Time has started to catch up to him, and the team simply cannot have this starting safety duo back again next year. I have so much love and respect for Hyde (and Poyer), but I think their time is done barring a late season P-Squad signing for depth. 
 

Jordan Poyer is in the same boat. He is under contract for 2024, but a release saves the team 5m during an offseason where they are pretty far in the hole. He, like Hyde, is relying off instinct and intelligence right now over athletic ability. Neither is done athletically, but they’ve lost some of their juice. The team could hang on to Poyer, he’s a defensive Swiss Army knife and I like him in this weird “other nickel” roll he’s been doing with Taron Johnson and Nard-dog.  I wouldn’t hate seeing him as the primary backup for both FS and SS. Behind who, you say? 
 

Christian Benford, right now as a second year former 6th round pick, is a solid CB. That is a huge win. He isn’t spectacular, he is dependable though. There are plenty of games this year where he only has 0-3 targets. There is a very good shot he stays the teams #2 CB, but imagine for a moment what he looks like at SS? 6’1’’ 205, sound tackler (hasn’t missed a single tackle in 2023) and sound in zone coverage. I don’t know if the Bills create a hole to fill a hole, but CB lining up at CB may depend on someone else.

 

Kaiir Elam wasn’t traded, I think that’s worth mentioning. I don’t think the Bills will give up on the kid without trying everything first. I believe he competes for the #2 CB role again, but given the log jam at CB and the depletion at Safety, I think there is a shot he, at minimum, gets a mention at FS. Elite athlete and has ball skills, FS could be a good home for him if Benford stays at CB2. He has a narrative for being a poor tackler, but the numbers don’t support it. Outside his first month in the NFL, his missed tackle rate is actually pretty low. I’ll admit, my X’s and O’s knowledge is limited and there is wayyyy more that goes into a CB-FS transition than ball skills and athleticism, but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless. 
 

Taron Johnson is basically a mini-LB and Dane Jackson is fine as a primary perimeter CB backup. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. If Elam and Benford both stay at CB, maybe the team experiment with Jackson at Safety but I don’t think he is consistent enough week in and week out to hold down a new position full time. I will say, he’s got the intensity for it. 
 

I’m not sure that they view Damar Hamlin as an every down starter at SS, seeing he’s been inactive every game. 
 

Tre White is the ultimate wildcard. He’s still in his prime age wise, he will be 29 in January. His injuries are well noted, I have no idea when we may see him return. He was looking pretty good before he got hurt, there is no question a healthy Tre White is our CB1. Releasing Tre saves 6m, but I’d be willing to bet he would re-work his deal to stay on the team. There are some players that you don’t bet against when it comes to overcoming injuries, Take Away Tre is one of them. Could Tre move to Safety? There is a difference between being a poor tackler and being an unwilling one. 
 

What are your thoughts? Do we bring back Hyde/Poyer? Do we keep the log jam at CB? Where would Christian Benford be utilized best? Will Tre White come back from this injury or is 6 million in cap savings too much to ignore? What would you try with Elam? 
 

🦬

 

I don’t know if it’s a problem.  We likely have our starting 2 CB’s next for next season in Benford and Douglas 

 

Im not sure why you put Taron on this list.  He’s an important part of the defense and I am certain he returns at slot CB next season.

 

I’d also bet Hyde and Poyer are both gone, which means they need to find 2 new safeties.  One idea had been moving Benford to safety but think he’s played too well.  I don’t see them valuing Damar as a starter.  
 

Buffalo probably has room for one decent free agent signing.  I would love to see them sign Kyle Duggar from NE to fill one of these spots but not sure what $ he will command.

 

The biggest question make is Tre White.  The Bills will want to give him every chance to comeback but reality and his contract probably say to move on

[Straight Hucklebuck]

53 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Our DB room is way too fascinating for me to save this thread for the summer time. Do we have a position group with as many offseason storylines as our Defensive backs?

 

Micah Hyde will be 33 in a few weeks and is a free agent this summer. Father Time has started to catch up to him, and the team simply cannot have this starting safety duo back again next year. I have so much love and respect for Hyde (and Poyer), but I think their time is done barring a late season P-Squad signing for depth. 
 

Jordan Poyer is in the same boat. He is under contract for 2024, but a release saves the team 5m during an offseason where they are pretty far in the hole. He, like Hyde, is relying off instinct and intelligence right now over athletic ability. Neither is done athletically, but they’ve lost some of their juice. The team could hang on to Poyer, he’s a defensive Swiss Army knife and I like him in this weird “other nickel” roll he’s been doing with Taron Johnson and Nard-dog.  I wouldn’t hate seeing him as the primary backup for both FS and SS. Behind who, you say? 
 

Christian Benford, right now as a second year former 6th round pick, is a solid CB. That is a huge win. He isn’t spectacular, he is dependable though. There are plenty of games this year where he only has 0-3 targets. There is a very good shot he stays the teams #2 CB, but imagine for a moment what he looks like at SS? 6’1’’ 205, sound tackler (hasn’t missed a single tackle in 2023) and sound in zone coverage. I don’t know if the Bills create a hole to fill a hole, but CB lining up at CB may depend on someone else.

 

Kaiir Elam wasn’t traded, I think that’s worth mentioning. I don’t think the Bills will give up on the kid without trying everything first. I believe he competes for the #2 CB role again, but given the log jam at CB and the depletion at Safety, I think there is a shot he, at minimum, gets a mention at FS. Elite athlete and has ball skills, FS could be a good home for him if Benford stays at CB2. He has a narrative for being a poor tackler, but the numbers don’t support it. Outside his first month in the NFL, his missed tackle rate is actually pretty low. I’ll admit, my X’s and O’s knowledge is limited and there is wayyyy more that goes into a CB-FS transition than ball skills and athleticism, but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless. 
 

Taron Johnson is basically a mini-LB and Dane Jackson is fine as a primary perimeter CB backup. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. If Elam and Benford both stay at CB, maybe the team experiment with Jackson at Safety but I don’t think he is consistent enough week in and week out to hold down a new position full time. I will say, he’s got the intensity for it. 
 

I’m not sure that they view Damar Hamlin as an every down starter at SS, seeing he’s been inactive every game. 
 

Tre White is the ultimate wildcard. He’s still in his prime age wise, he will be 29 in January. His injuries are well noted, I have no idea when we may see him return. He was looking pretty good before he got hurt, there is no question a healthy Tre White is our CB1. Releasing Tre saves 6m, but I’d be willing to bet he would re-work his deal to stay on the team. There are some players that you don’t bet against when it comes to overcoming injuries, Take Away Tre is one of them. Could Tre move to Safety? There is a difference between being a poor tackler and being an unwilling one. 
 

What are your thoughts? Do we bring back Hyde/Poyer? Do we keep the log jam at CB? Where would Christian Benford be utilized best? Will Tre White come back from this injury or is 6 million in cap savings too much to ignore? What would you try with Elam? 
 

🦬

Hyde is done, contract plays out, he retires. 

 

Cut Poyer

 

Benford, Elam, Douglas are back. 

 

Let Dane walk.  

 

Release Tre White 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[BuffaloBillyG]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Bring back Tre, bring in an FA, bring back Dane, and move Benford to safety is your positional plan rather than just bring in a safety and keep Benford at CB?

 

Not sure your plan makes much sense.

You need multiple corners. And you need guys that fit/know the system and communications. In a perfect scenario my depth chart would look something like this:

 

CB1: Douglas

CB2: White (on a pay cut with Jackson stepping in if not ready)

CB3: Jackson/Elam

CB4: Rookie

CB5: FA (lower level not major signing)

 

Safety - Benford

Safety - FA

Safety - Rookie

 

Give a nice mix of youth and experience at all levels with enough youth to be the long term answer moving forward.

 

There are many ways to go about it and truthfully I don't see any opinions as wrong at this point because there is a LOT that we just don't know. Will Tre heal? Would he take a pay cut to stay? Who will be available in FA? Who is sitting there when we pick? Will Elam suddenly figure things out?

 

The answers to those questions will dictate what needs to be done in the long run IMO.

[MarkyMannn]

Great thread. Imo Tre and either Hyde or Poyer is gone. I just don't see Bills cutting both starting safeties. Everyone left is OK. Rasul D better than OK. Elam I'd still hang on to and develop if that happens. Hamlin gone

 

I'd sign a FA and draft 2 db's late in the draft. McD seems like he can develop late round db's into good players. I like pick 1 on a wr, 2 on another OL man

Edited December 13, 2023 by MarkyMannn

[Ballhawk]

33 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

5) Tre White - cut or ideally injury settlement. Love you Tre.

Lol,

Cut him! (on his way out the door) Love ya!

NFL is a business, but I suspect Tre gets every chance to take a) a pay cut and b) prove he's still got it after his recovery.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Ballhawk

[Saxum]

52 minutes ago, Ballhawk said:

Unless Elam becomes a locker room cancer there just isn't a compelling reason to cut him while he's on his rookie contract. I would keep Poyer and cut Hyde, I'm not sure I'd want to absorb both losses to the depth chart in the same year. 

 

Tre is a tough one, cap savings makes case for cutting him but I think management will be watching his recovery closely as this one could go either way.

 

TJ is one of the most valuable DBs to this nickel defense as he let's us play light and get away with it, I would leave him were he is.

 

No need to cut Hyde.  He is free agent next year. 2024-2026 are void years.

 

https://overthecap.com/player/micah-hyde/2320#:~:text=Contract Notes,is fully guaranteed at signing.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Limeaid

[SCBills]

Hyde - Retires

Poyer - 50/50 

Hamlin - stays

Lewis - stays

 

Johnson - stays

Neal - gone

 

Douglas - stays

Benford - stays

Elam - stays

Jackson - 50/50

Tre - 50/50 w pay cut “restructure”

 

I could see them drafting a Safety on Day 2, another on Day 3 and keeping Poyer for one more year. 
 

CB, a Day 3 guy if both Tre/Dane are gone, but I’m fine with Douglas, Benford & Elam. 
 

Offense looks set except for WR2, and the Defense is set at LB, but I’d rather use resources on the DL than secondary if we have to choose where to invest $$ and/or premium draft assets.   
 

Very comfortable with McDermott’s ability to coach up Day 3 guys in the secondary in our scheme.  

[Saxum]

47 minutes ago, Billzgobowlin said:

I don't see Hyde being a liability.   White is a huge question mark and I think he might know the writing is on the wall as far as his playing days being done.   Poyer is ok but last year completely wore him down.  CBs are in good shape with Taron, Benford, Jackson and Douglas.

 

Last year he wore down because Bills were short players and he was playing hurt. 
Remember the game where they would not let him fly so he was driven to (and from) away game.

 

He seems better and healthier this year.

[Ballhawk]

Just now, Limeaid said:

 

No need to cur Hyde.  He is free agent next year. 2024-2026 are void years.

 

https://overthecap.com/player/micah-hyde/2320#:~:text=Contract Notes,is fully guaranteed at signing.

Great, I won't have to watch that old man vertical leap on hail marys next year! 

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Our DB room is way too fascinating for me to save this thread for the summer time. Do we have a position group with as many offseason storylines as our Defensive backs?

 

Micah Hyde will be 33 in a few weeks and is a free agent this summer. Father Time has started to catch up to him, and the team simply cannot have this starting safety duo back again next year. I have so much love and respect for Hyde (and Poyer), but I think their time is done barring a late season P-Squad signing for depth. 
 

Jordan Poyer is in the same boat. He is under contract for 2024, but a release saves the team 5m during an offseason where they are pretty far in the hole. He, like Hyde, is relying off instinct and intelligence right now over athletic ability. Neither is done athletically, but they’ve lost some of their juice. The team could hang on to Poyer, he’s a defensive Swiss Army knife and I like him in this weird “other nickel” roll he’s been doing with Taron Johnson and Nard-dog.  I wouldn’t hate seeing him as the primary backup for both FS and SS. Behind who, you say? 
 

Christian Benford, right now as a second year former 6th round pick, is a solid CB. That is a huge win. He isn’t spectacular, he is dependable though. There are plenty of games this year where he only has 0-3 targets. There is a very good shot he stays the teams #2 CB, but imagine for a moment what he looks like at SS? 6’1’’ 205, sound tackler (hasn’t missed a single tackle in 2023) and sound in zone coverage. I don’t know if the Bills create a hole to fill a hole, but CB lining up at CB may depend on someone else.

 

Kaiir Elam wasn’t traded, I think that’s worth mentioning. I don’t think the Bills will give up on the kid without trying everything first. I believe he competes for the #2 CB role again, but given the log jam at CB and the depletion at Safety, I think there is a shot he, at minimum, gets a mention at FS. Elite athlete and has ball skills, FS could be a good home for him if Benford stays at CB2. He has a narrative for being a poor tackler, but the numbers don’t support it. Outside his first month in the NFL, his missed tackle rate is actually pretty low. I’ll admit, my X’s and O’s knowledge is limited and there is wayyyy more that goes into a CB-FS transition than ball skills and athleticism, but it’s an interesting conversation nonetheless. 
 

Taron Johnson is basically a mini-LB and Dane Jackson is fine as a primary perimeter CB backup. If it’s not broke don’t fix it. If Elam and Benford both stay at CB, maybe the team experiment with Jackson at Safety but I don’t think he is consistent enough week in and week out to hold down a new position full time. I will say, he’s got the intensity for it. 
 

I’m not sure that they view Damar Hamlin as an every down starter at SS, seeing he’s been inactive every game. 
 

Tre White is the ultimate wildcard. He’s still in his prime age wise, he will be 29 in January. His injuries are well noted, I have no idea when we may see him return. He was looking pretty good before he got hurt, there is no question a healthy Tre White is our CB1. Releasing Tre saves 6m, but I’d be willing to bet he would re-work his deal to stay on the team. There are some players that you don’t bet against when it comes to overcoming injuries, Take Away Tre is one of them. Could Tre move to Safety? There is a difference between being a poor tackler and being an unwilling one. 
 

What are your thoughts? Do we bring back Hyde/Poyer? Do we keep the log jam at CB? Where would Christian Benford be utilized best? Will Tre White come back from this injury or is 6 million in cap savings too much to ignore? What would you try with Elam? 
 

🦬

 

 

The secondary (and Matt Milano) used to be the strength of the defense.  Three of the five starters were studs: Poyer, Hyde, and White.  

 

It's not so strong anymore.  The three studs aren't studs anymore and no new studs are emerging.  I'm concerned.  

[Saxum]

41 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

To those suggesting we cut Kaiir Elam... why?

 

He has raw talent and is on a relatively cheap contract. It's an $8M dead cap hit to cut him and $3.7M to keep him on the roster next year. Why the hell would you pay double to not have him?

 

Cut no, but it another team sees a fit on their team and they have a player to trade which Bills think will fit okay.

It has worked for Bills before.

[somnus00]

I see Hyde retiring. These neck injuries keep coming up this season. After the scare last year, I don't see why he would risk coming back. He's made his money. The next contact won't be worth the risk. I'm worried about him, I can't imagine how his family feels every time he makes a tackle.