Gabe's momma chimes in

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

lol what?  you guys with your straw man arguments. no, not one of the all time greats, lol but keep going!!  I also didn't say that Diggs does not see more attention than Davis.  I correctly noted that he is doubles a minority of his routes---same as better WR1s are.  nice try. 

 

anyway, I'm aware of Davis's limitations, so there's no table banging here--just pointing the poor arguments against him---while at the same time highlighting that this team's WR1 is not producing for the last 2 months.  Does anyone think Diggs is has been a top WR 1 since mid October? with a QB like Josh Allen?

 

Diggs has 8 drops this year already--he had 8 all year in 2022. His rating is his 2nd lowest of his career. This can't be brought up at all in a discussion about the production of the WR1 and the WR2 of the team? Tampa and Philly, you say?  How did Diggs compare to Davis in those 2 games? 

 

 

It is frustrating to see how many people look at catch% and have literally no clue how that stat works. Then they think because that % is low it must mean Gabe has bad hands. I literally want to slam my head into a concrete wall with the number of posters who reference this. Having said that his catch% is a by product of deeper routes and deeper routes are a by product of his poor route tree which is the actual problem with Gabe. His hands, while not perfect, are not even close to as big an issue as how limited he is with his route structure. If all this was already discussed my bad.  

[TrentEdwardsCheckDownOn4th]

On 12/12/2023 at 2:30 PM, DuckyBoys said:

Momma's new McMansion is fading away along with his big contract  If the Bills overpay Gabe this board will implode

Overpay ? I don't think the bills will offer Gabe anything let alone overpay. Gabe may not even be a starting WR in the league let alone a #2 WR. 

 

When some random team gives him $10MM/Yr. He needs to make sure he sends josh allen a nice Xmas present. 

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

you can't just point that out....

Actual data that shows how bad Diggs is playing? What would you like me to do?

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

Actual data that shows how bad Diggs is playing? What would you like me to do?

 

I was kidding--it's heresy!!  you aren't allowed to point some things out. 

 

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It is frustrating to see how many people look at catch% and have literally no clue how that stat works. Then they think because that % is low it must mean Gabe has bad hands. I literally want to slam my head into a concrete wall with the number of posters who reference this. Having said that his catch% is a by product of deeper routes and deeper routes are a by product of his poor route tree which is the actual problem with Gabe. His hands, while not perfect, are not even close to as big an issue as how limited he is with his route structure. If all this was already discussed my bad.  

 

yeah i agree with all of this.  Watching these guys invent conclusions I never made to counter while their heads explode trying to articulate their arguments is really the only fun in this.  

 

 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I was kidding--it's heresy!!  you aren't allowed to point some things out. 

 

 

yeah i agree with all of this.  Watching these guys invent conclusions I never made to counter while their heads explode trying to articulate their arguments is really the only fun in this.  

 

 

To be fair you claimed his lack of production was Allens fault so I'm not sure we should be big braining rn😂😂

[Royale with Cheese]

29 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Haven't watched film.  What does it show?

 

No one is "always open".  Why mention that?  I didn't. 

 

Diggs isn't testing the safety over the top.  His YBC (7.6) is his lowest since he has been in Buffalo.  The deep safety would have to run back toward the LOS to find Diggs on most catches. 

 

Why is Brady focusing on Diggs if he's either not open, dropping balls or not otherwise catching all those targets?  Tell us.

 

If "he's an average WR2" then....ok.  What's your point?

 

I mentioned that because you are claiming he needs more targets.  My claim is there's a reason why they aren't looking his way.

 

Because Diggs is a proven commodity and a threat.  Even in a skid, he would still be dangerous and accounted for.  Diggs is who the defensive coordinators worry about, not Davis.  I agree with that Bengals defensive back that said Davis runs 3 routes and that's it.

 

My point is an average #2 doesn't deserve more targets.  We have better options to go to elsewhere.  He will still have his big chunk plays here and there which he's good for but he needs to be our #4 option behind Diggs, Kincaid and Shakir...maybe Knox.

15 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It is frustrating to see how many people look at catch% and have literally no clue how that stat works. Then they think because that % is low it must mean Gabe has bad hands. I literally want to slam my head into a concrete wall with the number of posters who reference this. Having said that his catch% is a by product of deeper routes and deeper routes are a by product of his poor route tree which is the actual problem with Gabe. His hands, while not perfect, are not even close to as big an issue as how limited he is with his route structure. If all this was already discussed my bad.  

 

Its because if he's a limited route tree guy with not much YAC ability, you better be at least a great possession WR which he's not.  That's why the catch % comes in.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

What's funny is NFL Live was discussing the Bills/Cowboys game.

According to whoever was on there, Gabe Davis in the last 5 games has a 36% catch percentage...by far the worst in the league in that stretch.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

What's funny is NFL Live was discussing the Bills/Cowboys game.

According to whoever was on there, Gabe Davis in the last 5 games has a 36% catch percentage...by far the worst in the league in that stretch.

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

[H2o]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

lol what?  you guys with your straw man arguments. no, not one of the all time greats, lol but keep going!!  I also didn't say that Diggs does not see more attention than Davis.  I correctly noted that he is doubles a minority of his routes---same as better WR1s are.  nice try. 

 

anyway, I'm aware of Davis's limitations, so there's no table banging here--just pointing the poor arguments against him---while at the same time highlighting that this team's WR1 is not producing for the last 2 months.  Does anyone think Diggs is has been a top WR 1 since mid October? with a QB like Josh Allen?

 

Diggs has 8 drops this year already--he had 8 all year in 2022. His rating is his 2nd lowest of his career. This can't be brought up at all in a discussion about the production of the WR1 and the WR2 of the team? Tampa and Philly, you say?  How did Diggs compare to Davis in those 2 games? 

 

 

I summarized it all for you. Fairly simple to understand for those with a 5th grade reading comprehension or better. I also outlined the difference between Diggs and Davis in the 2 games you were trying to use as a banner for your "Gabe deserves more targets" crusade. Your defense of this JAG, supposed #2 WR has more holes than your Gabe Davis underoos. Don't act like you weren't advocating for him now. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by H2o

[BananaB]

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

 

16 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

He’s not getting many targets since Brady took over. But hey, Shakir was hardly getting any targets at the start of the season but has made the best of every opportunity and he eventually started getting more. At some point Davis’s opportunities were gonna decrease with the way he has been playing. It’s up to him to make the most of his chances to get more involved. It’s a production league. 

[Sherlock Holmes]

33 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Force the ball to an open WR?  That's a take...

 

Anyway, Dorsey increased Davis's targets by 50% over Daboll.  The result was:  For the full season last year, Davis had nearly 1000 yards and 8 TDs. (Diggs had about 1500 yards and 11 tds on 55% more targets than Davis). That's now considered "low production"?  That's laughable.

This year, it continued until Brady took over--he seems to think forcing it to Diggs on short routes (despite 6 drops this year) is a better way to go.  It isn't .

 

 

In his last 7 games, Diggs has been targeted 11-12  times in 4 games.  He caught only 54% of those for a total of only 226 yards.   Davis has had 2 games of 12 targets, caught 15 of them for 2 TDs and 192 yards. 

 

WHILE Davis has gotten 2, 0 and 2 targets in 3 of the the last 5 games, Diggs has gotten 7, 8 and 11 targets in the same games and produced 86, 27 and 24 yards.  It's not because he is doubled all the time (a fallacy--the best WRs in the NFL get doubles no more than 30% of their routes).  Plus, Diggs runs such short routes, "a safety over the top" isn't involved much.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This has been posted many times (and should be obvious to any viewer), but Kincaid is running short out routes almost exclusively.  Would it be better to Davis to run 4 yard outs so he could have a better catch %?  lol.

 

your complete  focus is on the catch % whereas his value is in the 1st downs, the yards and the TDs.   Who is dogging Cooper, Hopkins,  Higgins, Evans, Ridley, OBJ for having catch % in the mid 50's? 

 

 

not part of this discussion, but OK...

Cooper Kupp catches everything...

[JTown]

On 12/12/2023 at 3:52 PM, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Josh makes mistakes too. It's perfectly OK to point that out. He's a great QB but he's far from perfect.  Despite what you see on this board a lot you can be a fan and even a fan of your fav player and still criticize a bad play.

Agree.

Getting Knox back should help too. Knox can attract more underneath coverage and allow Davis to get open deep more often. 

That wasn't much of an option against KC DL but there should be more deep shot chances in the coming weeks as Allen will have more time in the pocket. 

I vehemently disagree.   Dallas defense will pressure Josh a hell of a lot more than KC did.

Even more worrisome is I don't think that our secondary will have much success against Dallas  WR.

I hope that I am wrong on both counts. 

 

Go Bills 

[NewEra]

30 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

What's funny is NFL Live was discussing the Bills/Cowboys game.

According to whoever was on there, Gabe Davis in the last 5 games has a 36% catch percentage...by far the worst in the league in that stretch.

Didn’t you know that Josh sucks?  We need a better QB so Gabe can shine!

[GoBills808]

31 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

And what does that 36% tell you? I’m curious how you interpret that number. 

If during that stretch if he's got good ADOT/ypc it means at best he's a high variance target

 

If he doesn't it means he's an inefficient one and really neither suggests he should be getting more looks

[Mikie2times]

25 minutes ago, BananaB said:

 

He’s not getting many targets since Brady took over. But hey, Shakir was hardly getting any targets at the start of the season but has made the best of every opportunity and he eventually started getting more. At some point Davis’s opportunities were gonna decrease with the way he has been playing. It’s up to him to make the most of his chances to get more involved. It’s a production league. 

The main thing it tells me is when targeted he isn't converting a lot of those targets into catches. Which could be because most of his targets are downfield. Which again, indicates his route tree being more of a impactor to his catch% than his hands.

 

For me, I would rather see Gabe as a 4 or 5 WR.  With his route tree, he actually fits that mold rather well but I don't believe that would ever happen with us and fear if we did retain him we would still utilize him more in the passing game than a 4 or 5 based on familiarity and the rest our WR core sucking.

 

The fact that we can't get Gabe going is an issue, but it was always going to be an issue. We can't afford to build an offense around getting a guy with 3-4 routes going. He's also our best blocking WR so it's not optimal to try his hand on screens (although he is physical and in some ways it was actually nice seeing a little of that vs Tampa).

 

The fact that Diggs is performing about as bad as he has in his Buffalo career the last 3 games is a problem. A really big problem given how limited our options are. I hope he can get it figured out or heal or correct whatever the driver is. His performance has been bad and you can see it, but it's all over his advanced stats as well. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Mikie2times

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The main thing it tells me is when targeted he isn't converting a lot of those targets into catches. Which could be because most of his targets are downfield. Which again, indicates his route tree being more of a impactor to his catch% than his hands.

 

For me, I would rather see Gabe as a 4 or 5 WR.  With his route tree, he actually fits that mold rather well but I don't believe that would ever happen with us and fear if we did retain him we would still utilize him more in the passing game than a 4 or 5 based on familiarity and the rest our WR core sucking.

 

The fact that we can't get Gabe going is an issue, but it was always going to be an issue. We can't afford to build an offense around getting a guy with 3-4 routes going. He's also our best blocking WR so it's not optimal to try his hand on screens (although he is physical and in some ways it was actually nice seeing a little of that vs Tampa).

 

The fact that Diggs is performing about as bad as he has in his Buffalo career the last 3 games is a problem. A really big problem given how limited our options are. I hope he can get it figured out or heal or correct whatever the driver is. His performance has been bad and you can see it, but it's all over his advanced stats as well. 

So you think he should get less targets.  Got it.  

[Mikie2times]

12 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

If during that stretch if he's got good ADOT/ypc it means at best he's a high variance target

 

If he doesn't it means he's an inefficient one and really neither suggests he should be getting more looks

Sort of interesting how well he did the one time we featured him in screens and with a low ADOT (TB). To your point, I don't know if that means we should change anything as far as trying to get him the ball in those screens. Just interesting.

Just now, NewEra said:

So you think he should get less targets.  Got it.  

I never was arguing for more?

[BananaB]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The main thing it tells me is when targeted he isn't converting a lot of those targets into catches. Which could be because most of his targets are downfield. Which again, indicates his route tree being more of a impactor to his catch% than his hands.

 

For me, I would rather see Gabe as a 4 or 5 WR.  With his route tree, he actually fits that mold rather well but I don't believe that would ever happen with us and fear if we did retain him we would still utilize him more in the passing game than a 4 or 5 based on familiarity and the rest our WR core sucking.

 

The fact that we can't get Gabe going is an issue, but it was always going to be an issue. We can't afford to build an offense around getting a guy with 3-4 routes. The fact that Diggs is performing about as bad as he has in his Buffalo career the last 3 games is a problem. A really big problem given how limited our options are. I hope he can get it figured out or heal or correct whatever the driver is. His performance has been bad and you can see it, but it's all over his advanced stats as well. 

Totally agree. Beane really whiffed this off-season filling holes at the WR position. I didn’t think it could get as bad as last year but I feel it has. I thought last season Davis and McKenzie could get the job done but I was totally wrong, like most people were. They deserved that opportunity though. At this point I think Beane doubled down on the wrong guy. McKenzie wasn’t good at the slot position but he had a place here and was productive when only getting worked in for a few plays. Harty has been bad, really bad most of the season and he’s the guy Beane gave decent money. Probably should have stuck with McKenzie and found a guy to take over Gabes position. 

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Sort of interesting how well he did the one time we featured him in screens and with a low ADOT (TB). To your point, I don't know if that means we should change anything as far as trying to get him the ball in those screens. Just interesting.

I never was arguing for more?

Tampa also has the 2nd worst pass d in the league…..while playing in the same division as Carr, Ridder and Bryce you. 
 

-  ok, thanks for answering.  You don’t want him getting anymore targets than he already gets….you’d rather he get less as a WR4-5

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Tampa also has the 2nd worst pass d in the league…..while playing in the same division as Carr, Ridder and Bryce you. 
 

-  ok, thanks for answering.  You don’t want him getting anymore targets than he already gets….you’d rather he get less as a WR4-5

Correct. I was just commenting on that Tampa thing how low his average depth of target was. So I was pondering if he could be a good fit to be featured in our horrible WR screen game because in that Tampa game he was rather good at it, but agree, I think Tampa plays off and mostly zone. It was probably more Bowles alignment than Davis excelling in that area.