Daboll having tension with a coach in NY too

[Beck Water]

Stuff coming out about Daboll as HC in NY:
https://theathletic.com/5194303/2024/01/12/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-wink-martindale-relationship-coach/?source=emp_shared_article

A lot of quotes from the Athletic article here if you don't have a subscription.

https://nypost.com/2024/01/12/sports/how-brian-daboll-wink-martindale-giants-relationship-blew-up/

 

Article says Martindale quit after expressing discontent that two of his "most trusted" assistants, OLB coach and defensive assistant kevin and drew wilkins, were fired by Daboll.  Reportedly Martindale met with Daboll to discuss and eventually said "***** you" to Daboll and stormed off. 

 

Daboll has had a long-standing reputation as a hot-tempered guy who can break into yelling on the sideline.  Colt McCoy had stories of trying to call a specific scripted play in Browns training camp when Daboll was OC, and having him be screaming into the helmet radio.   Josh Allen had a story his rookie year of making the wrong throw and Daboll screaming at him in the helmet radio, then on the sideline calming down, then coming back and screaming again.  Daboll was seen screaming at Josh after he threw a pick in the NWE game his 2nd season before being sent to the coach's booth.

 

Now obviously hard coaching isn't always bad, but this article says Daboll perhaps took it to excess:

Quote

Though it’s not uncommon for NFL head coaches to lose their cool, multiple team sources said Daboll goes overboard, particularly during games.

“On game day, he’s a madman,” one team source said. “It’s just brutal.”

That shouldn’t come as a revelation to fans who have witnessed Daboll’s red-faced tirades directed at players for mistakes during games. And it has rankled assistants to have to endure Daboll’s rants while they’re trying to coach.

“It’s to the point where you’ve got to take your headsets off or take one ear off,” another team source said. “He’s just constantly screaming. It’s like, ‘Jeez, I can’t even think.’”

 

The thing is, if you're losing your cool and yelling at players or coaching assistants for mistakes they made on a prior play, are you really present "in the game now" and giving all your focus to what's ahead of you, and has an outcome that can still be affected? 

 

Quote

Martindale spent the previous decade working for Ravens coach John Harbaugh, who has a much calmer sideline demeanor. Martindale didn’t appreciate the change to Daboll’s style.
(....)

Martindale’s philosophical differences were hiding in plain sight to outsiders as early as October 2022. His comments in a news conference now read like thinly veiled criticisms of Daboll’s sideline outbursts.

“What I tell the players all the time is, ‘What I owe you during the game is my composure,’” Martindale said. “There’s some people telling me I need to be more animated on the sidelines. You’re not going to be animated if you’re thinking about the next play, what you’re going to call next.”

 

Quote

Players view Daboll as a players’ coach, even though they can be on the receiving end of his sideline explosions. A veteran player said the outbursts are mostly an accepted part of playing for Daboll, even though they can be counterproductive in situations when emotions are already running high.

 

Players complained that Daboll’s predecessor, Joe Judge, worked them too hard in practice and held excessively long meetings. Daboll seems to have a better sense of how to manage players, with lighter practices and shorter meetings. The Giants held a rare Wednesday walk-through in Week 18 and then delivered a spirited effort in a 27-10 season-ending win over the Philadelphia Eagles.

“He does a good job of keeping everybody together and feeling the pulse of the team,” a team source said.

 

Quote

“I’m confident in what we do, how we do things,” Daboll said Monday, hours before everything blew up. “Certainly, there’s a lot of things that we can improve. That’s what the offseason is for, really, in every aspect.”

 

I just thought this was an interesting perspective since a number of folks here have pined for Daboll and opined that maybe we should have fired McDermott and kept Daboll.  Not judging who is to blame between Daboll and Martindale and the players, obviously Josh Allen built a close relationship with Daboll, but I don't think this story paints a picture of Daboll as having the "right stuff" to become a sure-fire successful HC in the league.

 

Players can appreciate player-friendly management, but still be hampered in their development by explosions and by criticisms that are "made personal" and not focused on technique and performance.  Next year will be interesting.

Edited January 14 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

And finally for those who see a problem with McDermott in the assistant turnover he's had over his 7 year tenure as HC, there's this:

 

https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/1/9/24031619/giants-coaching-staff-mess-is-brian-dabolls-to-clean-up-and-he-better

 

Quote

Daboll is the first Giants head coach since Tom Coughlin to last more than two years. That’s good. The Giants had to get off the two-years-and-change-head coaches treadmill. The bad news is that his coaching staff is undergoing a massive, and seemingly unusual, amount of turnover just one year after the staff was lauded for its work as the Giants made a surprising playoff run.

Strength and conditioning coach Craig Fitzgerald and running backs coach Jeff Nixon left for other opportunities. Special teams coordinator Thomas McGaughey and offensive line coach Bobby Johnson were fired on Black Monday. So, too, were Wink Martindale protégés Drew Wilkins and Kevin Wilkins, brothers who were the outside linebackers coach and assistant outside linebackers coaches, respectively.

Then, of course, the big shoe dropped Monday afternoon when it was reported that Martindale was going to resign.

 

Quote

There has, to this point, been no word about Kafka’s intentions. Still, just because he hasn’t resigned yet, doesn’t mean he won’t. There has been some speculation that Daboll might want to take control of the offense next season, and he said Monday that internal conversations about that would be forthcoming.

Kafka had four head-coaching interviews last offseason. Being demoted to offensive coordinator without play-calling duties, if that happens, won’t advance his career path. Just because the attention isn’t on him right now, don’t be shocked if Kafka is somewhere else next season.

There is only one thing clear right now — the heat will be turned up on Daboll, and also GM Joe Schoen, in Year 3 of their regime. Especially, though, on Daboll.

The current tattered state of a coaching staff that was the toast of the NFL in 2022 when Daboll was Coach of the Year, is Daboll’s mess to clean up.

 

Quote

McGaughey managed to outlast Pat Shurmur. He managed to co-exist with and outlast Joe Judge, a former special teams coach who was heavily involved in that group while coaching the Giants. He couldn’t outlast Daboll.

Johnson is a guy Daboll brought with him from the Bills, despite some in Buffalo not being upset to see him go. The hiring didn’t work. Young players did not appear to get better. Players did not seem to work well together to handle twists and stunts. The pass blocking was atrocious. The run blocking was spotty.

The offensive line was the biggest reason for the failings of the Giants in 2023. Daboll needs to get it right with the hire of the next offensive line coach.

What about losing Martindale? Again and again throughout the season defensive players talked about how much they loved playing for Martindale.

In talking about Martindale on Sunday evening after the season finale, linebacker Bobby Okereke called him “a great, elite coach” and “a legendary coach.” He also said Martindale was “a phenomenal leader.”

 

Quote

What I do know is that this mess is Daboll’s to clean up. It is the biggest test of his tenure thus far. If he cleans it up and the Giants have a good season in 2024, he will probably be around for a while. If he doesn’t and the team implodes in 2024, that could doom his time with the Giants.

 

Quote

So, in essence, Daboll might be getting what he wants with the revamping of his coaching staff. At the same time, though, he has turned up the heat on himself.

 

I thought it was actually genius, and a good sign, that Daboll hired both an OC and a DC he had no known previous working relationships with.  Bring in new blood and fresh ideas.  But maybe there were other reasons.  Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Richard Noggin]

I liked Daboll's willingness (and/or eagerness) to coach Josh Allen HARD. QB17 responded to hard coaching, to my eye. That's not the consensus these days (to coach guys HARD), even though some guys still do in fact respond favorably to intense and immediate correction. More respectful, calmer coaching in the moment is the direction we've been headed, and with good reason, but there is still some room for intense, passionate correction for certain repeat offenders. 

 

The issue I focus on with Daboll is his inability to or disinterest in calling plays sequentially in a way that helps the o-linemen leverage their slight advantage of knowing the play call to win each rep against their defensive opponents. He never had much respect for the realities in the trenches as he called strings of consecutive 5-man protection pass plays even when facing elite pass rushers. He didn't often help his linemen win their individual battles by keeping the box defenders off balance. Allen bailed him out a ton, and when he didn't, the Bills sputtered. (This is still true at times, of course, but I've seen improvement on this particular point about play-call sequencing.)

 

Brady gives the impression of a coach who listens intently to the feedback and input of his position coaches, especially Kromer. I'm interested in how they do or don't adjust to the reality that Torrence got CHEWED UP last week, and they're facing an even better front this week (inside and out) even without Watt. Heyward seems to line up more often to the LEFT guard's side, IIRC, and Pitt likes Highsmith coming off that same side (offensive left). Golden and Herbig aren't trash depth with Watt out. 

 

Very curious how the Bills approach this week tactically on offense.

[Buffalo716]

44 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

And finally for those who see a problem with McDermott in the assistant turnover he's had over his 7 year tenure as HC, there's this:

 

https://www.bigblueview.com/2024/1/9/24031619/giants-coaching-staff-mess-is-brian-dabolls-to-clean-up-and-he-better

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought it was actually genius, and a good sign, that Daboll hired both an OC and a DC he had no known previous working relationships with.  Bring in new blood and fresh ideas.  But maybe there were other reasons.  Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

There are two things that can both be possible at the same time... Brian Daboll is a good football coach

 

And he's also a hot head

 

Everybody whoever worked with him could agree

[Beck Water]

13 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

I liked Daboll's willingness (and/or eagerness) to coach Josh Allen HARD. QB17 responded to hard coaching, to my eye. That's not the consensus these days (to coach guys HARD), even though some guys still do in fact respond favorably to intense and immediate correction. More respectful, calmer coaching in the moment is the direction we've been headed, and with good reason, but there is still some room for intense, passionate correction for certain repeat offenders.

 

I think it's possible Daboll was highly successful in coaching Josh because McDermott put a "governor" or limits on the time and place of his hard coaching.  He did this by sending Daboll upstairs to the coach's booth and (I think) telling him he better be focused on getting the next play in on time, not screaming in Josh's ear about the last one.  The team watches film and does "corrections" on Monday, and intense, passionate correction can be delivered then or in private.

[Big Turk]

Sounds like McD is likely not the one at fault with their tension...or at least it probably had something to do about the way Daniel acts. Likely Daboll tried that with McD and it didn't work too well.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-giants-brian-daboll-makes-144709843.html

5 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

I liked Daboll's willingness (and/or eagerness) to coach Josh Allen HARD. QB17 responded to hard coaching, to my eye. That's not the consensus these days (to coach guys HARD), even though some guys still do in fact respond favorably to intense and immediate correction. More respectful, calmer coaching in the moment is the direction we've been headed, and with good reason, but there is still some room for intense, passionate correction for certain repeat offenders. 

 

The issue I focus on with Daboll is his inability to or disinterest in calling plays sequentially in a way that helps the o-linemen leverage their slight advantage of knowing the play call to win each rep against their defensive opponents. He never had much respect for the realities in the trenches as he called strings of consecutive 5-man protection pass plays even when facing elite pass rushers. He didn't often help his linemen win their individual battles by keeping the box defenders off balance. Allen bailed him out a ton, and when he didn't, the Bills sputtered. (This is still true at times, of course, but I've seen improvement on this particular point about play-call sequencing.)

 

Brady gives the impression of a coach who listens intently to the feedback and input of his position coaches, especially Kromer. I'm interested in how they do or don't adjust to the reality that Torrence got CHEWED UP last week, and they're facing an even better front this week (inside and out) even without Watt. Heyward seems to line up more often to the LEFT guard's side, IIRC, and Pitt likes Highsmith coming off that same side (offensive left). Golden and Herbig aren't trash depth with Watt out. 

 

Very curious how the Bills approach this week tactically on offense.

 

Mahomes admitted Eric Bienemy brought a missing accountability factor this year to the offense and he was as in your face as it gets.

Edited January 14 by Big Turk

[Doc]

Daboll was made by Josh.  He'll be fired midway through next season.

[thenorthremembers]

While I agree Daboll will likely be fired next season, I have the same opinion of ex-coches and players going to the media against him as I do the hit piece by Dunn on McDermott; absolute cowards.

[TheWeatherMan]

37 minutes ago, Doc said:

Daboll was made by Josh.  He'll be fired midway through next season.

Like Dorsey was, who was also made by Josh? Dabs made the Giants an overachieving team last year…he’s a good coach.  

[BADOLBILZ]

18 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Like Dorsey was, who was also made by Josh? Dabs made the Giants an overachieving team last year…he’s a good coach.  

 

Nah, I think you need to follow the NFL closer.   LOT's of bad HC's have had good first seasons and were seen as "overachieving".    Just in the case of the Giants see 2016 Ben McAdoo.    He went 11-5 and tied for the second best record in the NFC.    Daboll only went 9-7-1 with a veteran team that had just been underachieving for a couple years.    Then this season his Giants team started out looking as unprepared as you will ever see an NFL team look nowadays.   It was pathetic........and all on him.      

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Nah, I think you need to follow the NFL closer.   LOT's of bad HC's have had good first seasons and were seen as "overachieving".    Just in the case of the Giants see 2016 Ben McAdoo.    He went 11-5 and tied for the second best record in the NFC.    Daboll only went 9-7-1 with a veteran team that had just been underachieving for a couple years.    Then this season his Giants team started out looking as unprepared as you will ever see an NFL team look nowadays.   It was pathetic........and all on him.      

 

I agree with most of this... but I don't think the Giants had been an underachieving team. I think they had been and are a bad team with a poor roster. They overachieved last year but I am not sure it was ever sustainable without considerable roster improvement. 

[jahnyc]

Daboll has a bunch of open spots on his staff, including defensive coordinator, but who would want to join his staff given these reports, recent history of coaches being fired or resigning, and poor performance of the team this year, which could mean he may not make it through his third year as coach of the Giants.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

I liked Daboll's willingness (and/or eagerness) to coach Josh Allen HARD. QB17 responded to hard coaching, to my eye. That's not the consensus these days (to coach guys HARD), even though some guys still do in fact respond favorably to intense and immediate correction. More respectful, calmer coaching in the moment is the direction we've been headed, and with good reason, but there is still some room for intense, passionate correction for certain repeat offenders. 

 

The issue I focus on with Daboll is his inability to or disinterest in calling plays sequentially in a way that helps the o-linemen leverage their slight advantage of knowing the play call to win each rep against their defensive opponents. He never had much respect for the realities in the trenches as he called strings of consecutive 5-man protection pass plays even when facing elite pass rushers. He didn't often help his linemen win their individual battles by keeping the box defenders off balance. Allen bailed him out a ton, and when he didn't, the Bills sputtered. (This is still true at times, of course, but I've seen improvement on this particular point about play-call sequencing.)

 

Brady gives the impression of a coach who listens intently to the feedback and input of his position coaches, especially Kromer. I'm interested in how they do or don't adjust to the reality that Torrence got CHEWED UP last week, and they're facing an even better front this week (inside and out) even without Watt. Heyward seems to line up more often to the LEFT guard's side, IIRC, and Pitt likes Highsmith coming off that same side (offensive left). Golden and Herbig aren't trash depth with Watt out. 

 

Very curious how the Bills approach this week tactically on offense.

 

 

Yeah Daboll is very Wyche/Mularkey like as a play caller.    When it's good it looks ingenious............but then when you see just how bad it can get you realize it's just his unorthodox/uncomplementary "wicky-wacky"style of football.   Mularkey had good numbers in his time running the offense in Pittsburgh but Cowher was delighted to have an excuse to get him out of there when Buffalo hired him.    They then proceeded to take the next step and win the SB without him.

[boater]

Never liked Daboll.

 

I remember when he was on the side line (before he moved up to the box) and he would be screaming at Josh Allen. Screaming is piss poor leadership, I know because I've worked for several screamers in the military. It's a miserable experience. Screamer's units always under perform and have poor morale.

 

I remember this season when Tyrod made a mistake at the end of the half, and Daboll was in his ear right away. The screaming didn't help the game outcome.

 

Therefore, I'm not surprised to hear of tension in the Giants organization.

[Doc]

48 minutes ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Like Dorsey was, who was also made by Josh? Dabs made the Giants an overachieving team last year…he’s a good coach.  

 

Yup.  Look where Dorsey is now.

 

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I agree with most of this... but I don't think the Giants had been an underachieving team. I think they had been and are a bad team with a poor roster. They overachieved last year but I am not sure it was ever sustainable without considerable roster improvement. 

 

The first year in Jersey was promising.  But unlike the Bills in McD's 2nd year, they didn't have a rookie QB and almost $80M in dead cap, and in fact had $40 in cap room to make the roster better.  They didn't and Jones regressed from what was his best, although still not a very good, season.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

So why is all the focus on Daboll? What about JOE SCHOEN??!?!? Clearly there are a lot of personnel issues that must be addressed, and starting castoff Bills players clearly wasn't the way to succeed in 2024. If he goes with Daniel Jones as the starter this upcoming season as he has talked about, he may be on the hot seat as well. Players see guys like Stroud, Levis and to some extent Richardson ball out and must wonder why Jones is still the guy...

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with most of this... but I don't think the Giants had been an underachieving team. I think they had been and are a bad team with a poor roster. They overachieved last year but I am not sure it was ever sustainable without considerable roster improvement. 

 

 

Sustainable kinda' implies that they were good in 2022........which I didn't really think was the case.

 

But as they like to say nowadays........."both things can be true".  

 

Were the Giants he inherited a 4-13 roster as they had been the year before?

 

No,  they were probably more of a 7-8 win roster that had underperformed in the dysfunction of Joe Judge.  

 

But as McD proved in his first season in Buffalo an easy schedule and new schemes and play callers can give an underachieving veteran-laden team a temporary bump.  

 

That's all that really happened.   But this year was a huge indictment of him as a coach as well,  not just the roster.    

 

[Einstein's Dog]

12 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

So why is all the focus on Daboll? What about JOE SCHOEN??!?!? Clearly there are a lot of personnel issues that must be addressed, and starting castoff Bills players clearly wasn't the way to succeed in 2024. If he goes with Daniel Jones as the starter this upcoming season as he has talked about, he may be on the hot seat as well. Players see guys like Stroud, Levis and to some extent Richardson ball out and must wonder why Jones is still the guy...

 

 

I agree it's the pair Daboll and Schoen.  It seems their early fluky success had them deviate from the plan they were part of with the Bills. 

 

The Bills made the playoffs in a fluke fashion but then cut the QB and refused to pay big money for an RB (Shady).  The same thing needed to be done in NY - D Jones was not the answer and paying Barkley big money would be a mistake in this day and age.  And yet that's exactly what they did.

 

 

[BBFL]

4 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I agree it's the pair Daboll and Schoen.  It seems their early fluky success had them deviate from the plan they were part of with the Bills. 

 

The Bills made the playoffs in a fluke fashion but then cut the QB and refused to pay big money for an RB (Shady).  The same thing needed to be done in NY - D Jones was not the answer and paying Barkley big money would be a mistake in this day and age.  And yet that's exactly what they did.

 

 

Saquon you can make reasoning for as he was their whole offensive success. Daniel Jones’ contract though? Man. What on earth were they thinking???

 

Him getting a top 5 contract at that position should have immediately led to some serious scrutiny or termination but the “he has potential, he just needs time to be coached correctly in a system he’s familiar with” quips flew around. The guy can be a QB in the league but you’re only going to get a lower tier guy who’s very pedestrian. 

[GunnerBill]

34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Sustainable kinda' implies that they were good in 2022........which I didn't really think was the case.

 

But as they like to say nowadays........."both things can be true".  

 

Were the Giants he inherited a 4-13 roster as they had been the year before?

 

No,  they were probably more of a 7-8 win roster that had underperformed in the dysfunction of Joe Judge.  

 

But as McD proved in his first season in Buffalo an easy schedule and new schemes and play callers can give an underachieving veteran-laden team a temporary bump.  

 

That's all that really happened.   But this year was a huge indictment of him as a coach as well,  not just the roster.    

 

 

Meh I kinda think they were a 4 or 5 win roster. I agree they weren't really good in 2022 though. I wasn't trying to imply that they were. 

 

I think they have been basically a kinda 5 win team for a few years. And their record supports that. With last year being the exception. And it was an exception. They got a few breaks early doors, bit of new coach bounce, but they weren't ever a true 9 win team.

Edited January 14 by GunnerBill