Greenberg - A Jets Fan - Pushing Back Against The Allen Hate

[C.Biscuit97]

10 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

Jim Kelly is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. Let me know if Donovan McNabb is ever inducted.

I’ll just keep coming with the unpopular opinions! Kelly is one of the most overrated Qbs in nfl history! He was so bad in the playoffs. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/  More ints than tds and a 72.3 rating. If you switched Marino on those absolutely loaded Bills team, we win multiple SBs. If Kelly checked his ego and ran Thurman 30 times in the first SB, they win that one.

[Thurman#1]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

So what????  No one is going to not have him in their top 7 and that is not the point.

 

It is the criticism that is heaped on him that is often unwarrented.  

 

 

To repeat, I said top 5, not top 7.

 

And that absolutely is the point. So many on here whine on and on about the criticism and the lack of respect and the hatred and on and on. 

 

Most of that is nonsense. He's ranked top 5 everywhere. He gets a ton of respect. And of course he gets criticism. He's an NFL quarterback. It's part of the deal. Particularly for an NFL QB leading the league in INTs. It's part of the Josh Allen package. Of course it's going to be mentioned. But again, top five status from about everyone.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Thurman#1

[C.Biscuit97]

10 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

There is one big difference, C.Biscuit97 is sensitive about Lamar & Cam ON A BUFFALO BILLS message board.  At least we Allen defenders have the good taste & common sense to defend Allen on a Bills message board and not in a Ravens or Panthers board.

 

 

 

Guy, assuming, this is getting strange. All I have ever said is Cam and Lamar, 2 former MVPs and qbs this board loves to crap on, are good qbs/ top 10 in their prime. It’s weird that even needs to be said.

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

To repeat, I said top 5, not top 7.

 

And that absolutely is the point. So many on here whine on and on about the criticism and the lack of respect and the hatred and on and on. 

 

Most of that is nonsense. He's ranked top 5 everywhere. He gets a ton of respect. And of course he gets criticism. He's an NFL quarterback. It's part of the deal.

I think one had him 7th and almost all behind Burrow, who can too make mistakes and seldom criticized like Allen is.  Heck Mahomes has too thrown some awful ints, but that's okay.

 

The thread was Greenberg showing (fake?) disdain that the question was the O/U on Allen Turnovers, as opposed to maybe O/U Combined TD's or 300 yards passing.

[C.Biscuit97]

13 hours ago, Success said:

 

I think they are - for a LOT of reasons.  Kelly isn't really in the conversation, but I consider him top 10.  Marino has a real argument, for any fan of the game.

 

Clutch play is a big part of ranking - and both Brady and Montana won so much, because they were BOTH so clutch.  They made plays when it counted.

 

That, right now, is not a differentiator between Mahomes & Allen.  If anything, I think Allen was a bit more clutch in the 13 seconds game, though it's close.

 

Winning does matter - but not to the point where Dilfer is better than Marino, or Eli is better than Fouts.

 

We're still in the 1st third or so of both careers.  Mahomes has titles - but he has also had better coaching, more well-constructed teams, and more luck to this point.  Skill-wise, I'd still take Allen over Mahomes. And the time to really judge who is "better" is when they're both done.

 

And that’s fine and that’s your opinion. I think it is kinda crazy and a bills fans being biased towards a situation (again, which I understand). 
 

that’s when I point out that a lot of fans will trash the bills to prop Allen up and I just don’t agree with that. Allen joined a playoff team when he was drafted; he was extremely raw and very up and down; he has consistently had top 5 defenses; they have used a lot of draft picks to put guys around him; his former OC is a coach of the year; etc. it’s not close to as bad as some of you want to make it. It’s not even close to what CJ stroud had to start his career in Houston but some of you act like Allen was Fields on the Bears 

 

top 3 qb, not as good as mahomes. And I’m pretty sure the Bills win in Sunday but I’m a hater!

11 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

The fact that is is clearly disliked for no real reason by, I don't know, 90% of black media members, maybe?

 

Christ, Dominique Foxworth said on an ESPN show that he didn't like Allen because the type of people who do "have American flags and pictures of their dogs in their Facebook profiles."

 

Pull your head out of the sand and read between the lines.

So you are saying the black media members hate Allen? What’s it called when you judge a group of people by their race? 

10 hours ago, Patrick Fitzryan said:

There's nothing ridiculous about it. Compare how objectively good QBs with great stats like Allen and Cousins are criticized endlessly while a below-average one like Justin Fields is never held to the fire for poor performances and even gushed over.

 

The bias is real, despite it being a truth you find inconvenient.

You sound crazy 

12 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The horror that Bills fans on TWO BILLS DRIVE might defend Allen from unfair and unhinged attacks by a minority of Bills "fans".  The horror!

 

 

Unhinged!!!! 
 

“Josh is a top 3 qb who has as much upside as any qb in the league. But considering he leads in turnovers since he entered the nfl, I would like to see him take care of the ball better and I think Mahomes is the better qb right now.”

 

unhinged!!! You would be an excellent soccer parent. 

[LeviF]

20 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’ll just keep coming with the unpopular opinions! Kelly is one of the most overrated Qbs in nfl history! He was so bad in the playoffs. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/  More ints than tds and a 72.3 rating. If you switched Marino on those absolutely loaded Bills team, we win multiple SBs. If Kelly checked his ego and ran Thurman 30 times in the first SB, they win that one.

 

I've been flamed for a similar take in the past. Should be noted that Marino didn't exactly have the smallest head in the world either though so maybe the XXV outcome ends up being the same lol

[boyst]

29 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Guy, assuming, this is getting strange. All I have ever said is Cam and Lamar, 2 former MVPs and qbs this board loves to crap on, are good qbs/ top 10 in their prime. It’s weird that even needs to be said.

the nuanced difference between cam and lamar is magnificent. especially on a pure passing talent level. newton was able to get away with many things because of olsen and smith being great targets for him while lamar in his prime and at times this year has been finding windows that newton never could.

 

i hate that both of these guys are lumped in the same pot because ...[insert comment here]... because it's not fair. they're quite a bit different.

[The Jokeman]

44 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I’ll just keep coming with the unpopular opinions! Kelly is one of the most overrated Qbs in nfl history! He was so bad in the playoffs. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00/gamelog/post/  More ints than tds and a 72.3 rating. If you switched Marino on those absolutely loaded Bills team, we win multiple SBs. If Kelly checked his ego and ran Thurman 30 times in the first SB, they win that one.

I actually agree with you on Kelly. As Kelly couldn't run a traditional offense, see Run and shoot in Houston and the K-Gun here in Buffalo. I often wonder if we ran a more traditional offense that stayed on the field more than 2-3 minutes if our defense would perform better as have more rest time etc. The best thing that ever happened to Kelly is signing with Houston out of school to develop more as a player and let the Bills acquire some of the talent around him before he got here (see Bruce Smith @ #1 overall in 1985 which we'd not get if we drafted Marino in 1983). 

[DrDawkinstein]

8 hours ago, Chicken Boo said:

 

Mahomes is a 2x league MVP, 2X Super Bowl champ and 2X Super Bowl MVP.

 

If Patrick retired tomorrow, he'd be a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and would widley be considered a top 5 QB all time. 

 

I think he's more than earned the praise.  

 

Never said he shouldnt be praised. Mahomes is absolutely deserving of every worshipping comment.

 

The point is that both QBs are worthy of praise and both are worthy of criticism. But what we get is 90% criticism of Allen, and 99% praise of Mahomes.

 

If winning a Super Bowl makes it so no one ever criticizes your play again, and other QBs will be only criticized until they win a Super Bowl, then the commentary and analysis isnt worth jack squat (not that it means much in the grand scheme of the world anyways).

[boyst]

26 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Never said he shouldnt be praised. Mahomes is absolutely deserving of every worshipping comment.

 

The point is that both QBs are worthy of praise and both are worthy of criticism. But what we get is 90% criticism of Allen, and 99% praise of Mahomes.

 

If winning a Super Bowl makes it so no one ever criticizes your play again, and other QBs will be only criticized until they win a Super Bowl, then the commentary and analysis isnt worth jack squat (not that it means much in the grand scheme of the world anyways).

winning super bowls elevated the legacies of: 

bradshaw

gannon

foles

early tom brady

flacco

warner

theismann

roethlisberger

 

and some just flat out didn't deserve it and got there by their team

brady (early and late at tampa)

brad johnson, staford

dilfer

favre

rypein

hostetler

doug williams

etc etc

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, boyst said:

winning super bowls elevated the legacies of: 

bradshaw

gannon

foles

early tom brady

flacco

warner

theismann

roethlisberger

 

and some just flat out didn't deserve it and got there by their team

brady (early and late at tampa)

brad johnson, staford

dilfer

favre

rypein

hostetler

doug williams

etc etc

 

Where would you put Eli on your lists.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Gregg

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, boyst said:

winning super bowls elevated the legacies of: 

bradshaw

gannon

foles

early tom brady

flacco

warner

theismann

roethlisberger

 

and some just flat out didn't deserve it and got there by their team

brady (early and late at tampa)

brad johnson, staford

dilfer

favre

rypein

hostetler

doug williams

etc etc

 

I wouldn't consider Brady's "late at tampa" super bowl as a didn't deserve it.  The team was 7-9 the previous year, and 11-5 with him.  10 TDs to 3 INTs in the playoffs of 2020.  108 TDs to 33 INTs over his 3 years in Tampa.  He also probably got screwed over on the 2021 MVP tbh.  

[boyst]

17 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Where would you put Eli on your lists.

Eli was a very good QB. Among the top 5 in his era over shadowed by Brady, Peyton, and others. I think he had more talent then Brees, Ryan, Rodgers, and many others.

 

He and Rivers do not get enough respect for how talented they were because of the bad teams they were on but both elevated their teams. 

8 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

I wouldn't consider Brady's "late at tampa" super bowl as a didn't deserve it.  The team was 7-9 the previous year, and 11-5 with him.  10 TDs to 3 INTs in the playoffs of 2020.  108 TDs to 33 INTs over his 3 years in Tampa.  He also probably got screwed over on the 2021 MVP tbh.  

They went all in to support him. The defense played insanely good. They squeezed out lucky games. They were overrated. 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

And he won the SB the same year they traded Hill and had JuJu as his number 1 receiver that insane. 

 

Yeah, it's weird you felt the need to say this.

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Does he really not get the credit? Or is that just the paranoia of Bills fans?

 

Are there a lot of lists out there of the top five QBs that don't have Allen in there?

 

I googled "Top 10 QB list 2023". I later wanted some more recent ones so I re-adjusted for recency. Out of the first ten I opened how many would you guess had Allen outside of the top five?

 

That would be zero.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-qb-power-rankings-lamar-jackson-aaron-rodgers-both-crack-top-10-in-first-rundown-of-all-32-starters/

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/2023-top-10-nfl-quarterbacks-ranking-the-best-qbs-after-patrick-mahomes

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-10-quarterbacks-entering-the-2023-nfl-season

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/05/30/top-10-quarterbacks-qbs-ranked-right-now#gid=ci02c08dc2e000262e&pid=10

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/insider/story/_/id/37919975/ranking-nfl-top-10-quarterbacks-2023-execs-coaches-scouts-make-their-picks-best-passers

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2023-qbs-best-worst/yxvqewdhatrxu7qwajhb89vp

https://www.insider.com/nfl-2023-season-starting-quarterbacks-ranked-complete-list-2023-9

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-nfl-week-12-qb-power-rankings-ravens-lamar-jackson-rises-to-no-1-broncos-russell-wilson-also-jumps/

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-week-10-2023-nfl-season

 

They're right to point out the INTs. It's part of who he is. Pretty much all of them also point out his running, which is also part of who he is. It really would be better if he threw less. At least two games and arguably three, Allen was a large part of why we lost, and I'm sure he'd agree 100% with that. He also won us some games, no question. But inconsistency is held against QBs, and for good reason.

 

Of course, there are always going to be a few folks who over-react. This is the internet, after all. It's part of the deal. But most recognize that he's a great QB. Only the wingnuts don't really.

 

He doesn't get a lot of hate, he just doesn't. But yeah, they do throw his weaknesses in with the rest of his traits.

No offense, this is a terrible counter.  Of course no one in their right mind would leave Allen off a top 10 list.  
 

Im talking about the narrative, the constant pursuit to diminish him as an elite QB.  Top 10 is not Elite.  The constant need to focus on the negative with Allen, the narrative trying to paint Allen as the problem in Buffalo, the narrative he is overrated, the narrative he didn’t deserve to be on the Madden cover…I mean I can go on and on about what is discussed about Allen on a regular basis.  

 

Yet even his biggest critics would never leave him off a top 10 list.   
 

I mean even just watch this video in this very thread where a professional sports journalist had to burst out in the show he is on in defense of Allen because the story was not his statistical DOMINANCE at Arrowhead where his career stats are insane there, espeically his last 3, but instead about will Josh have more or less than 1.5 turnovers.  

So sorry, this reply with googled lists of him being top 10 is not relevant to what is being discussed.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[TheBrownBear]

Watched two shows this morning each with a segment piling on Josh.  Orlovsky must feel like he's taking crazy pills sometimes having to continually point out objective truths to his co-hosts.  I'm not sure why some of these dudes have such a hard-on for hating Allen?  Yeah, he's not perfect, but no QB is.  Do they literally only watch reels of his turnovers or something?  

[cisco2403]

4 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Death, taxes, and whatever you name is showing up to stalk me when I mention Allen.

 

Not sure how many you are bills fans or Allen groupies. I’ve consistently said he is a top 3 qb (but you didn’t say he was number 1 you jerk!). Sorry, I think Mahomes is better (2 MVPs, 2SBs, crazy I know) is better and the only place on earth this is a discussion is here. I think if their resumes were reversed, we think chiefs fans were idiotic for trying to compare to the 2 st this point.

 

i also believe there are qbs that this board love to criticize, for whatever the reason, like Cam and Lamar. Cam reminded me a lot of Allen. Elite physical skills and could dominate games single handedly.  Cam did that on a pretty garbage Carolina offense. Allen is much more consistent and is making changes to his game to last longer. 
 

and Lamar has similarities to Allen but isn’t on par as a passer (though he has absolute crap to throw to besides Edwards before this season). And it may look funny but dude just wins (during the regular season, needs to prove it in the playoffs still). But any time he messes up, this board loves trashing him.

 

so again, Allen is a top 3 qb; the bills are not as bad around him as others make it out to be and has a worst offense around him than Mahomes this year (that and the 2 SBs is why Mahomes doesn’t get “criticized” as much); and Mahomes is maybe one of the best qbs I have ever seen. My opinion is something 99% of other fans agree with besides the homers here. Josh Allen probably agrees with me and thinks you are weird for getting so emotional. 😭 

Are we just making up reasons to get mad now? Whoever said that?

Not sure why that is so hard. And I would rather have Allen as a qb but Lamar wins his way. 
 

bunch of soccer moms here 

And he won the SB the same year they traded Hill and had JuJu as his number 1 receiver that insane. 

The very video that is in the first post kind of refutes what you are saying that there is no debate outside of here on who is better. When Greenberg says, if Allen were to land with the Chiefs and Andy Reid, the roles would be reversed. 

[Mango]

I think Greeny is right. Allen played great vs Philly. A lot of things are true at the same time. Allen is really really really good, he gets held to a wild standard, and sometimes he needs to be better. Some games have too many turnovers and poor decisions. 

 

I think part of the problem is that this team lives and dies by Allen's game. Some of that is on the FO and staff. But Allen also brings some of that on himself with his style of play. 

 

I don't mind the reactive stuff like "You can't throw the ball there at that point in the game". I don't like the proactive stuff like "how many turnovers is this jabroni going to have this week". 

Short story long. I am critical of Allen at times and he has played phenomenal at times. Anybody piling on the Philly game is out of their gourd. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Watched two shows this morning each with a segment piling on Josh.  Orlovsky must feel like he's taking crazy pills sometimes having to continually point out objective truths to his co-hosts.  I'm not sure why some of these dudes have such a hard-on for hating Allen?  Yeah, he's not perfect, but no QB is.  Do they literally only watch reels of his turnovers or something?  

 

Exactly, and this is the point I was trying to convey to @Thurman#1 

[TheBrownBear]

34 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think Greeny is right. Allen played great vs Philly. A lot of things are true at the same time. Allen is really really really good, he gets held to a wild standard, and sometimes he needs to be better. Some games have too many turnovers and poor decisions. 

Short story long. I am critical of Allen at times and he has played phenomenal at times. Anybody piling on the Philly game is out of their gourd. 

They are taking the opportunity to really pile on at this time because of 6-6, which is as much McDermott's D's (and injuries) fault as Allen's.  The last two games against NYJ and Philly were probably the two finest games Josh has played in the last calendar year.