I hope that Beane stops listening to McDermott when drafting

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Like we did this year that pushed our Offensive spending so slightly under our Defensive spending?

Again, have to ask you look at league averages. Other teams restructure as well. We spend a ton on defense relative to the rest of the league and especially contenders w franchise QBs.

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Again, have to ask you look at league averages. Other teams restructure as well. We spend a ton on defense relative to the rest of the league and especially contenders w franchise QBs.

 

Who did?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Who did?

I mean the Chiefs restructured Mahomes just earlier this year

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean the Chiefs restructured Mahomes just earlier this year

 

That was a totally different type of restructure than the usual "convert salary to bonus" lever that gets pulled and we are referring to. They addressed 4 years at once.

 

AND the Chiefs are still in the top 5 for Offensive spending. Not sure who they are paying on that squad outside of Pat and Kelce.

 

Bills restructured about $30M in salaries this season which put them in a -$11M spend Offense:Defense. Otherwise we'd be spending a lot more on Offense.

 

You say other teams did that too. Who?

 

Look, I dont want to keep this back and forth going all night. I dont even disagree that much with things you are saying. But you're saying a whole lot seemingly based on feels, and when pressed for data and/or analysis, change the argument.

 

I don't see any clear cut evidence so far that shows the Bills spend a disproportionate amount on Defense over Offense. Not draft picks, not FA signings, not Cap space.

 

"More" on Defense than Offense? Sure. A bit. But nothing crazy.

 

Anyone who wants to make that argument needs to do some work and provide the real numbers.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

That was a totally different type of restructure than the usual "convert salary to bonus" lever that gets pulled and we are referring to. They addressed 4 years at once.

 

AND the Chiefs are still in the top 5 for Offensive spending. Not sure who they are paying on that squad outside of Pat and Kelce.

 

Bills restructured about $30M in salaries this season which put them in a -$11M spend Offense:Defense. Otherwise we'd be spending a lot more on Offense.

 

You say other teams did that too. Who?

 

Look, I dont want to keep this back and forth going all night. I dont even disagree that much with things you are saying. But you're saying a whole lot seemingly based on feels, and when pressed for data and/or analysis, change the argument.

 

I don't see any clear cut evidence so far that shows the Bills spend a disproportionate amount on Defense over Offense. Not draft picks, not FA signings, not Cap space.

 

"More" on Defense than Offense? Sure. A bit. But nothing crazy.

 

Anyone who wants to make that argument needs to do some work and provide the real numbers.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/transactions/restructure/

 

List of restructures this season

 

https://overthecap.com/positional-spending

 

List of offense vs defense spending showing since 2020 Bills spending the most in the league on defense, about average/below average on offense

 

That's all I got I guess

 

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/transactions/restructure/

 

List of restructures this season

 

https://overthecap.com/positional-spending

 

List of offense vs defense spending showing since 2020 Bills spending the most in the league on defense, about average/below average on offense

 

That's all I got I guess

 

 

The list at face value doesnt show that. If you want to compile that data to prove the point you have been trying to make, go ahead.

[GoBills808]

23 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

The list at face value doesnt show that. If you want to compile that data to prove the point you have been trying to make, go ahead.

I mean should I chew their food up for them too😂😂I'm not going to waste my time if people can't read a simple list and make their own inferences

[HappyDays]

6 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Yes I do 😉

 

Basically Von’s contract tilted things in favor of the defense, but it’s not like we have neglected the offense. We’ve still made some serious investments on that side dating back to 2019. 

 

Here's the way I see it.

 

On defense we have invested enough into every position. The results haven't all been great but I don't think anyone disagrees that we have invested plenty at every level of the defense.

 

On offense we have not invested nearly enough at WR, and IMO not enough at OL either. Using day three picks and paying the likes of Deonte Harty and Trent Sherfield is not true investment.

 

Looking at just premium positions, we have spent a ton of draft picks and cap space on CBs and DEs, and comparatively very little on WRs and OTs.

 

Parse all the minute details out however you want, the top end investment has clearly weighed much more heavily towards the defense.

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by HappyDays

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

Here's the way I see it.

 

On defense we have invested enough into every position. The results haven't all been great but I don't think anyone disagrees that we have invested plenty at every level of the defense.

 

On offense we have not invested nearly enough at WR, and IMO not enough at OL either. Using day three picks and paying the likes of Deonte Harty and Trent Sherfield is not true investment.

 

Looking at just premium positions, we have spent a ton of draft picks and cap space on CBs and DEs, and comparatively very little on WRs and OTs.

 

Parse all the minute details out however you want, the top end investment has clearly weighed much more heavily towards the defense.

 

I think a big reason we spend so much on defense is on defense you tend to play more players. As on offense ideally you only play 1 QB all season, 1 group of 5 offensive lineman, 1 sure fire WR and TE. By contrast on D you're constantly shuffling in DLineman, maybe 1-2 more DBs on third down etc. As a result paying for quality depth more important on D vs O.

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I think a big reason we spend so much on defense is on defense you tend to play more players. As on offense ideally you only play 1 QB all season, 1 group of 5 offensive lineman, 1 sure fire WR and TE. By contrast on D you're constantly shuffling in DLineman, maybe 1-2 more DBs on third down etc. As a result paying for quality depth more important on D vs O.

 

Sure, that's why I don't focus too much on the details. The problem is on defense they have spent resources on starters and depth, whereas on offense they have spent resources mostly just on depth. This is the first offseason in Allen's career where Beane made a concerted effort to address the OL. He has not even attempted to address WR2 the past two offseasons. It is a legitimate failing of this regime.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:10 PM, margolbe said:

A good pick.  Why not another wide receiver and a backup quarterback?

 

Why?  Is your goal to waste a draft pick?  This team is good and Allen is great.  There is no QB controversy here.  The only way the backup QB sees the field is in a blow out win or loss or Allen gets hurt.  As many have said, though not this year, team needs a backup QB good enough to win a game or two until Allen gets back.  Why would you want to trust a rookie QB in that role while you can always find a Tribisky, K Allen, and others just like that. 

 

Drafting another punter would make much more sense than drafting a rookie QB.

[The Jokeman]

10 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sure, that's why I don't focus too much on the details. The problem is on defense they have spent resources on starters and depth, whereas on offense they have spent resources mostly just on depth. This is the first offseason in Allen's career where Beane made a concerted effort to address the OL. He has not even attempted to address WR2 the past two offseasons. It is a legitimate failing of this regime.

I disagree, we've brought in offensive lineman throughout Beane's tenure, see drafting of Ford, Teller, signing Spain, Williams, Stafford etc. Just because the guys didn't end up long terms answers doesn't mean he hasn't tried. 

[BillsFanSD]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:54 AM, margolbe said:

We need a true number 2 wide receiver (assuming Diggs stays), another offensive lineman (or two), a RB in the line of Murray, but with youth.  
On the defensive side we need someone to replace DeQuan Jones (assuming he goes elsewhere).  Don't know how Milano is going to recover, so we should consider his replacement.

No.  The offensive line is playing very well -- we can always use more OLs, but our starters are fine.  We do not need another RB.  I don't see any issues at LB.  

 

Okay, we could probably use another WR.  You got that one right.

[Thurman#1]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:54 AM, margolbe said:

I hope that Beane stops listening to McDermott when drafting

 

 

The ol' "Everything good is from Beane and everything bad is from McDermott trick", eh Chief?

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Here's the way I see it.

 

On defense we have invested enough into every position. The results haven't all been great but I don't think anyone disagrees that we have invested plenty at every level of the defense.

 

On offense we have not invested nearly enough at WR, and IMO not enough at OL either. Using day three picks and paying the likes of Deonte Harty and Trent Sherfield is not true investment.

 

Looking at just premium positions, we have spent a ton of draft picks and cap space on CBs and DEs, and comparatively very little on WRs and OTs.

 

Parse all the minute details out however you want, the top end investment has clearly weighed much more heavily towards the defense.

 

 

 

Stefon Diggs came from a 1st round pick, plus a few extras. Same with Kincaid. 

 

Torrence is a high pick, as is Cook. Brown, Moss, Ford, Singletary, Knox, all top three round picks from the last five years.

 

That's 2/5 1sts, 3/5 2nds and 4/6 3rds. On offense.

 

$97M this year on offensive spending and $103M on defensive, according to Spotrac.

 

Top end investment has not really leaned all that far towards defense. It may seem that way, but that's confirmation bias.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Thurman#1

[BearNorth]

18 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Torrence is a high pick, as is Cook. Brown, Moss, Ford, Singletary, Knox, all top three round picks from the last five years.

 

 

And who do Moss, Ford and Singletary play for these days?  4/7 on this list isn't a great draft record, esp since this board has been fairly unhappy with Brown for the past three season.

[Thurman#1]

34 minutes ago, BearNorth said:

And who do Moss, Ford and Singletary play for these days?  4/7 on this list isn't a great draft record, esp since this board has been fairly unhappy with Brown for the past three season.

 

 

Major problems with this post. First, I didn't have a list of seven. I listed Diggs and Kincaid also, making nine. Six out of nine isn't bad at all, especially when two out of the three who are gone are good players, just either a bad fit here or let go for cap reasons. Only Ford was a really bad pick of the nine. And we can probably say the same about Basham on defense. And the same or worse about nearly every team out there if you go back five years.

 

Second, I didn't say anything about whether they were good picks. 

 

He claimed we weren't using top end resources on offense. I pointed out that that is at best questionable.

 

If you have a point, go make it. But don't reply to one of my posts and then ignore my actual point.

 

Oh, and Brown now is starting to look like a very solid pick indeed, no matter what some rather clueless folks want to say about a guy who was dealing with a serious back injury. And this is his third season, not his fourth. If they were complaining about his Brown's "past three seasons," that would include his last year at Northern Iowa.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2023 by Thurman#1

[DrDawkinstein]

12 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Major problems with this post. First, I didn't have a list of seven. I listed Diggs and Kincaid also, making nine. Six out of nine isn't bad at all, especially when two out of the three who are gone are good players, just either a bad fit here or let go for cap reasons. Only Ford was a really bad pick of the nine. And we can probably say the same about Basham on defense. And the same or worse about nearly every team out there if you go back five years.

 

Second, I didn't say anything about whether they were good picks. 

 

He claimed we weren't using top end resources on offense. I pointed out that that is at best questionable.

 

If you have a point, go make it. But don't reply to one of my posts and then ignore my actual point.

 

Oh, and Brown now is starting to look like a very solid pick indeed, no matter what some rather clueless folks want to say about a guy who was dealing with a serious back injury. And this is his third season, not his fourth. If they were complaining about his Brown's "past three seasons," that would include his last year at Northern Iowa.

 

 

 

Bro, it's not even worth this effort. I've been making these same arguments since page 2. And they havent even been arguments, just analyzing the real data and seeing what the actual truth is.

 

It doest matter what you can actually prove. Folks here FEEL like we've been lopsided to Defensive spending and anything you show them to prove otherwise will only result in moving the goal posts.

 

We havent been lopsided in drafting, nor free agency spending, nor cap % spending.

 

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Again, have to ask you look at league averages. Other teams restructure as well. We spend a ton on defense relative to the rest of the league and especially contenders w franchise QBs.

 

 

 

From league average, we're a bit off, yes, fair enough. But Dallas is a contender. Miami too. Philly too. SF. Seattle. Minnesota was too before Cousins went down.

 

Hell, those are the majority of the contenders and several of the top tier, and all either are very close or spend more on defense. It's not as wildly unusual as you are suggesting.

[GoBills808]

@DrDawkinsteindid more work for you

 

since 2018 Bills have drafted (according to draft value chart) 4,954.4 points worth of defensive players and 4,187.5 points worth of offensive players not including the Stefon Diggs trade. That comes out to 174points/offensive player and 261 points/defensive player.

 

If you want to include Diggs trade they spent 199points/offensive player.