Cover 1 discussion on our option route offense

[Scott7975]

 

This was a really good video to watch.  I can see why there are miscommunications now.  Also should show people why this isn't a timing based offense with some of the people crying they want to see Josh hit his back foot and throw the ball.

[1st&Goal]

Watched it last night. Pretty much shows that you can't be stupid and make this offense work! No wonder there are times when miscommunications happen!

[SoonerBillsFan]

It needs to end.  All this option route crap is cause for many of Allen's picks.

 

Put in a more traditional offense like the WCO and let's save shats left of Allen's career.

[streetkings01]

36 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

It needs to end.  All this option route crap is cause for many of Allen's picks.

 

Put in a more traditional offense like the WCO and let's save shats left of Allen's career.

If it accounts for all of his picks then it accounts for all of his yards and touchdowns as well right?

[Man with No Name]

18 minutes ago, streetkings01 said:

If it accounts for all of his picks then it accounts for all of his yards and touchdowns as well right?

 

well, it can account for one of those areas more than the other. 

It is also probably a huge limiting factor in who we can bring in to play in our offense. And is also the reason it seems to take new guys 2 years to start getting involvement in our offense. 

 

If the learning curve is too steep, is it worth it? 

 

idk. i guess i leave it to the professionals to make those decisions. 

[MrEpsYtown]

Really good stuff here. This is vintage Tom Brady Ehrhardt-Perkins stuff. I think one of the most important things is continuity with receivers or finding guys who have experience with these choice concepts. Not too many players come out of college with this type of knowledge these days, so it will be interesting where they go in the offseason.  

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Really good stuff here. This is vintage Tom Brady Ehrhardt-Perkins stuff. I think one of the most important things is continuity with receivers or finding guys who have experience with these choice concepts. Not too many players come out of college with this type of knowledge these days, so it will be interesting where they go in the offseason.  

This isn't true. Choice concepts are huge at the high school and college level and have been for some time now.

[MrEpsYtown]

4 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

This isn't true. Choice concepts are huge at the high school and college level and have been for some time now.

 

Yes and no. People run choice routes, but not many are running choice stuff at this intricate level. I see a ton of RPOS and slot fade, mesh rail stuff. Based on my experience, typically at the high school level, it is maybe two or three options. In college the same thing. Then I think the challenge is to find players who can read coverages and have the talent to play in the NFL. 

[BADOLBILZ]

14 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This was a really good video to watch.  I can see why there are miscommunications now.  Also should show people why this isn't a timing based offense with some of the people crying they want to see Josh hit his back foot and throw the ball.

 

 

It could be timing based though.........when Brady ran it at the same stage of career as Josh Allen is at now, the EP looked a lot like the WCO........you could overlay pass drops of Joe Montana in SF with Tom Brady in NE and they would look almost identical.     The fact that it's not is more about the players than the system itself.    And that's an advantage of the EP........it is more adaptable to different styles of QB and receivers.

 

 

[Scott7975]

43 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It could be timing based though.........when Brady ran it at the same stage of career as Josh Allen is at now, the EP looked a lot like the WCO........you could overlay pass drops of Joe Montana in SF with Tom Brady in NE and they would look almost identical.     The fact that it's not is more about the players than the system itself.    And that's an advantage of the EP........it is more adaptable to different styles of QB and receivers.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it can't be but I don't think Allen can process beyond his first or second read all by the time he hits his drops if 3-4 receivers can run a gazillion (hyperbole) different route combinations.

[BuffaloBillyG]

4 hours ago, Man with No Name said:

 

well, it can account for one of those areas more than the other. 

It is also probably a huge limiting factor in who we can bring in to play in our offense. And is also the reason it seems to take new guys 2 years to start getting involvement in our offense. 

 

If the learning curve is too steep, is it worth it? 

 

idk. i guess i leave it to the professionals to make those decisions. 

The part that confuses me is that the offense is very intricate and hard to pick up for the players that join the offense, yet there have been several times in the last 2 years where someone off a defense we just played make a comment that it's simple to defend and they knew everything the Bills were doing because it's so predictable. 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

This isn't true. Choice concepts are huge at the high school and college level and have been for some time now.

 

You have certainly provided more value than I ever could, but that is my take as well. The game is more complex than we give it credit for.  Most routes have some variability based on coverage and leverage. Maybe we have more, I don't know. By my eye test it doesn't seem like we have a full standard deviation more. 

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

a slightly more scripted, ‘get open, I’ll find you’ 

[Big Turk]

4 hours ago, Man with No Name said:

 

well, it can account for one of those areas more than the other. 

It is also probably a huge limiting factor in who we can bring in to play in our offense. And is also the reason it seems to take new guys 2 years to start getting involvement in our offense. 

 

If the learning curve is too steep, is it worth it? 

 

idk. i guess i leave it to the professionals to make those decisions. 

 

Gabe Davis made an impact as a rookie. Dalton Kincaid is making an impact as a rookie.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Big Turk

[BADOLBILZ]

30 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I'm not saying it can't be but I don't think Allen can process beyond his first or second read all by the time he hits his drops if 3-4 receivers can run a gazillion (hyperbole) different route combinations.

 

 

Yeah I think there is some aspect of Josh and company not being good enough or well prepared enough at it along with Allen not wanting to settle for quick passes and the offense lacking YAC talent etc..  

 

But it's not always that many options though.    They can scheme up quick-game heavy, timing-based game plans........like the 2022 opener versus Rams and the Tampa game this season.   I think what Cover 1 was pointing out is that it's not just a timing based offense that isn't being run well.......which some people just assume because so much of what NE did at their best was precision timed execution.   Either way,  they really are not at a level execution wise that you would like to see from a team in the same system with the same QB 6 years in and top 2 receivers 4th year in.    They have just been way too inconsistent this season despite that advantage of familiarity.   

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

36 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

The part that confuses me is that the offense is very intricate and hard to pick up for the players that join the offense, yet there have been several times in the last 2 years where someone off a defense we just played make a comment that it's simple to defend and they knew everything the Bills were doing because it's so predictable. 

 

If you watch enough film you'll see similarities.  I remember peterson talking about one where he knew we were running a post and picked it in OT.  But end of the day there - he baited them into it, gave them the leverage to look open, and allen threw a bad ball.  If its a good ball its probably a TD.  

[DuckyBoys]

how about bring in another receiver that can win of the los and just keep it simple  You can a rocket armed qb with mobility Kincaid can get open Diggs wins most of the time  Find one more guy and junk this over complicated system that leads to multiple errors in critical moments

[Buffalo716]

4 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

 

Yes and no. People run choice routes, but not many are running choice stuff at this intricate level. I see a ton of RPOS and slot fade, mesh rail stuff. Based on my experience, typically at the high school level, it is maybe two or three options. In college the same thing. Then I think the challenge is to find players who can read coverages and have the talent to play in the NFL. 

He's right

 

The bills are doing nothing new with their option routes... This is run n shoot 101

 

This has been in the college game and In the NFL for a while 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Dablitzkrieg]

1 hour ago, DuckyBoys said:

how about bring in another receiver that can win of the los and just keep it simple  You can a rocket armed qb with mobility Kincaid can get open Diggs wins most of the time  Find one more guy and junk this over complicated system that leads to multiple errors in critical moments

Or 2