Addressing the "Josh Allen is TO machine" narrative

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

It wasn't just not perfect, imo.  Our only chance in that game was to keep scoring. If Josh missed a throw, sure, yeah it happens. A pick there basically cut our win probability in half.

 

If you want to compare Josh/Mahomes, here's one.

 

The Bills are 1-6 in 2023 when our defense allows 20 or more.

 

The Chiefs are 2-3 in 2023 when their defense allows 20 or more.

 

2022

Bills 6-3

Chiefs 9-3

 

2021

Bills 3-4

Chiefs 4-5

 

2020

Bills 6-3

Chiefs 8-2

The standard should be like playoff rivals no?  Better than league average sounds like a "happy with McD making the playoffs" type stat.

Just looking at Bengals doesn't seem much different from bills 

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Just looking at Bengals doesn't seem much different from bills 

Your level of detail is appreciated. I'm glad the goal post is proving you wrong.  

Edited November 30, 2023 by Mikie2times

[HappyDays]

54 minutes ago, FireChans said:

As bad as the defense was in that second half, I think the Bills win that game if Josh doesn't throw that pick tbh.

 

We get blown out in that game if any other QB in the league is our starter. That's a fact.

 

It isn't enough for Allen to be perfect. He has to be perfect-plus. Make several plays that practically defy the laws of physics and also make zero mistakes.

 

He has to be our leading rusher and be the entire passing offense (no YAC or difficult catches). He has to account for 420 of our 505 total yards, and all 4 of our TDs. And don't forget, zero mistakes.

 

He has to overcome his teammates costing him a bare minimum of 13 points on the scoreboard in a shootout. But remember - zero mistakes.

 

He has to push the ball downfield into tight windows in rainy muddy weather a couple dozen times to keep our team hanging on by the skin of its teeth. But for the love of God zero mistakes.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by HappyDays

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

The Bills are 1-6 in 2023 when our defense allows 20 or more.

 

The Chiefs are 2-3 in 2023 when their defense allows 20 or more.

 

2022

Bills 6-3

Chiefs 9-3

 

2021

Bills 3-4

Chiefs 4-5

 

2020

Bills 6-3

Chiefs 8-2

 

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Just looking at Bengals doesn't seem much different from bills 

Let's see:

 

Bungles (w/ Burrow)

2023

1-5

 

2022

4-3

 

2021

4-6

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The Bengals were 2-14 when they drafted Burrow. 

 

Then he got hurt and his first full season he had Higgins, Chase and Boyd.  Allen spent 2 years throwing to scrubs on a team cutting players and eating dead cap space while Bengals were adding talent from the moment Burrow got there.  

Edited November 30, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Your level of detail is appreciated. I'm glad the goal line is proving you wrong.  

I don't have a problem being wrong😂😂I don't even think I'm trying to be right here, I'm just looking for some data

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

We get blown out in that game if any other QB in the league is our starter. That's a fact.

 

It isn't enough for Allen to be perfect. He has to be perfect-plus.

Make several plays that practically defy the laws of physics and also make zero mistakes.

 

He has to be our leading rusher and be the entire passing offense (no YAC or difficult catches). He has to account for 420 of our 505 total yards, and all 4 of our TDs. And don't forget, zero mistakes.

 

He has to overcome his teammates costing him a bare minimum of 13 points on the scoreboard in a shootout. But remember - zero mistakes.

 

He has to push the ball downfield into tight windows in rainy muddy weather a couple dozen times to keep our team hanging on by the skin of its teeth. But for the love of God zero mistakes.

Yep, last week, we needed Allen to be perfect to beat the one loss reigning NFC champions. A real shame because he came very close.

 

I don't think we get blown out with Mahomes as our starter tbh.

[HappyDays]

28 minutes ago, FireChans said:

If that's too high of expectations to you, that's fair.

 

It's too high of expectations for reality. It is practically impossible for Josh Allen to perform better than he did against the Eagles.

[Mikie2times]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't have a problem being wrong😂😂I don't even think I'm trying to be right here, I'm just looking for some data

It's 30-15 vs a sub .500 record. You said he was on the same level of a two time SB champion. I think the burden of proof is on you. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's too high of expectations for reality. It is practically impossible for Josh Allen to perform better than he did against the Eagles.

He threw an INT, man. He wasn't perfect.

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Yep, last week, we needed Allen to be perfect to beat the one loss reigning NFC champions.

 

This is a comment on the team, not even a little bit on Allen's performance. So in that sense I 100% agree. There is nothing Allen could have done to beat the Eagles that day.

 

17 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I don't think we get blown out with Mahomes as our starter tbh.

 

If Mahomes played the best game of his life for the Bills that day he too would have suffered a one score loss. An average Mahomes performance from this year though, yeah it would have been a blowout.

 

To be fair an average Josh Allen performance from this year also would have probably been a blowout. He had to be the best possible version of himself to make it close. And that version of himself is the best QB that ever played the game, I really believe that.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by HappyDays

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

He threw an INT, man. He wasn't perfect.

 

Perfect is not a real standard. The degree of difficulty he faced that day and the number of otherworldly throws and runs he had to make just to will his offense down the field meant a high likelihood of a turnover at some point. Seriously, go watch the all-22 of every snap he took. Because he's Josh Allen we've all grown used to it. Not me. I don't take the dozen impossible plays he made for granted. That interception doesn't even register when weighed against everything he had to do to even make it a close loss. The discourse around it drives me insane.

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is a comment on the team, not even a little bit on Allen's performance. So in that sense I 100% agree. There is nothing Allen could have done to beat the Eagles that day.

 

 

If Mahomes played the best game of his life for the Bills that day he too would have suffered a one score loss. An average Mahomes performance from this year though, yeah it would have been a blowout.

 

To he fair an average Josh Allen performance from this year also would have probably been a blowout. He had to be the best possible version of himself to make it close. And that version of himself is the best QB that ever played the game, I really believe that.

You're one of the best posters on the board but I just can't with this. Best QB that ever played the game? Look at some of the teams Brady won with. Scrubs. If he was even the vapor of the breath you speak of he would be able to influence things more. I'm a die hard for this team and I just don't understand how you can see it like this. I'm also riding off in the sunset now because as I said in the DM, I'm not here to argue about a guy I love. I just don't see this topic as you, GoBills and Cincy do. But I still love Josh and I think even his detractors feel the same. My opinions and statements are not implying anything less that that. 

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Best QB that ever played the game?

 

That version of himself, yes. We may have only seen that version 3-4 times ever though? Because his physical talent is the greatest the league has ever seen, him playing at his best would naturally be the best QB the league has ever seen. I believe his play against the Eagles was that version of himself.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

14 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

It's 30-15 vs a sub .500 record. You said he was on the same level of a two time SB champion. I think the burden of proof is on you. 

Let me disabuse you of that then

 

There's so much more I consider relevant to QB quality than record 

[Mikie2times]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

That version of himself, yes. We may have only seen that version 3-4 times ever though? Because his physical talent is the greatest the league has ever seen, him playing at his best would naturally be the best QB the league has ever seen. I believe his play against the Eagles was that version of himself.

 

 

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Let me disabuse you of that then

 

There's so much more I consider relevant to QB quality than record 

Again, I cant with you guys. It's like we are watching two different things.

 

Josh is also my guy, love him as our QB. Just don't see this the same way.  I hope we get to time where these details just don't matter anymore. 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Again, I cant with you guys. It's like we are watching two different things.

 

Josh is also my guy, love him as our QB. Just don't see this the same way.  I hope we get to time where these details just don't matter anymore. 

Burrow and the Bengals appear to have similar or slightly worse record in games where their defense allows 20+ points

 

It's interesting but it doesn't say what you think it does

[Allen2Moulds]

27 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

You're one of the best posters on the board but I just can't with this. Best QB that ever played the game? Look at some of the teams Brady won with. Scrubs. If he was even the vapor of the breath you speak of he would be able to influence things more. I'm a die hard for this team and I just don't understand how you can see it like this. I'm also riding off in the sunset now because as I said in the DM, I'm not here to argue about a guy I love. I just don't see this topic as you, GoBills and Cincy do. But I still love Josh and I think even his detractors feel the same. My opinions and statements are not implying anything less that that. 

I agree that Brady did make it work with average play makers earlier on, but the one constant was great Defense, and great oline play, that allowed them to always have a strong running game, no matter who was the RB. Let's also not forget that he had a HOF TE, best all-time in my opinion. I know Kelce is a better pure receiver, but Gronk was equally dominant in the run game as a blocker, or would block a DE at times in pass pro. 

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

We get blown out in that game if any other QB in the league is our starter. That's a fact.

 

 

I’m curious if you always pass off your opinions as fact.

[90sBills]

48 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Again, I cant with you guys. It's like we are watching two different things.

 

Josh is also my guy, love him as our QB. Just don't see this the same way.  I hope we get to time where these details just don't matter anymore. 

You said this so perfectly for some of us that are objective about Allen. A championship would definitely eliminate a lot of these discussions about him.