Joe Brady on the Allen/Davis Miscommunication

[Scott7975]

44 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know that we know for a fact that this is why Dorsey was gone, but it certainly makes sense.   And, really, that play represents what looks like a problem, but it was only one problem.  The thing that was troubling everyone, starting at game 5, was the disappearance of any offensive flow or effectiveness.  The Bills are 6-6 because the offense substantially underperformed its potential.  With decent offensive performance, like we've seen in the last two games, the Bills would be 9-3 or even 10-2.   

 

It's really frustrating to have blown (absent a miracle) another opportunity. 

 

Yes, I agree with all of that

[Billsfan1972]

On 11/30/2023 at 12:25 AM, Shaw66 said:

I don't know that we know for a fact that this is why Dorsey was gone, but it certainly makes sense.   And, really, that play represents what looks like a problem, but it was only one problem.  The thing that was troubling everyone, starting at game 5, was the disappearance of any offensive flow or effectiveness.  The Bills are 6-6 because the offense substantially underperformed its potential.  With decent offensive performance, like we've seen in the last two games, the Bills would be 9-3 or even 10-2.   

 

It's really frustrating to have blown (absent a miracle) another opportunity. 

How about McD not trot 12 players out on the last play vs. Denver (after 2 timeouts)?  Yes McD's fault as he is the HC and this is the simplest of coaching plays.

 

You love to absolve him & the D.  Yep the offence was underperforming (you don't think McD played a part?).

 

However the offense left the field the last time they had the ball with leads vs. Philly, Denver & NE. Tied with the Jets, needing a stop against one of the worst offenses in the NFL.  Down by a TD or less with time on the clock and one stop from having the ball again vs. Cincy & Jax.   

Edited December 5, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[RochesterLifer]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

How about McD not trot 12 players out on the last play vs. Denver (after 2 timeouts)?  Yes McD's fault as he is the HC and this is the simplest of coaching plays.

 

You love to absolve him & the D.  Yep the offence was underperforming (you don't think McD played a part?).

 

However the offense left the field the last time they had the ball with leads vs. Philly, Denver & NE.  They were one stop from having the ball again vs. Cincy, Jax & NYJ.   

How about McD not trot 12 players out on the last play vs. Denver (after 2 timeouts)?  Yes McD's fault as he is the HC and this is the simplest of coaching plays.

 

You love to absolve him & the D.  Yep the offence was underperforming (you don't think McD played a part?).

 

However the offense left the field the last time they had the ball with leads vs. Philly, Denver & NE.  They were one stop from having the ball again vs. Cincy, Jax & NYJ.   

How about McD not trot 12 players out on the last play vs. Denver (after 2 timeouts)?  Yes McD's fault as he is the HC and this is the simplest of coaching plays.

 

You love to absolve him & the D.  Yep the offence was underperforming (you don't think McD played a part?).

 

However the offense left the field the last time they had the ball with leads vs. Philly, Denver & NE.  They were one stop from having the ball again vs. Cincy, Jax & NYJ.   

How about McD not trot 12 players out on the last play vs. Denver (after 2 timeouts)?  Yes McD's fault as he is the HC and this is the simplest of coaching plays.

 

You love to absolve him & the D.  Yep the offence was underperforming (you don't think McD played a part?).

 

However the offense left the field the last time they had the ball with leads vs. Philly, Denver & NE.  They were one stop from having the ball again vs. Cincy, Jax & NYJ.   

How about McD not trot 12 players out on the last play vs. Denver (after 2 timeouts)?  Yes McD's fault as he is the HC and this is the simplest of coaching plays.

 

You love to absolve him & the D.  Yep the offence was underperforming (you don't think McD played a part?).

 

However the offense left the field the last time they had the ball with leads vs. Philly, Denver & NE.  They were one stop from having the ball again vs. Cincy, Jax & NYJ.   

How about McD not trot 12 players out on the last play vs. Denver (after 2 timeouts)?  Yes McD's fault as he is the HC and this is the simplest of coaching plays.

 

You love to absolve him & the D.  Yep the offence was underperforming (you don't think McD played a part?).

 

However the offense left the field the last time they had the ball with leads vs. Philly, Denver & NE.  They were one stop from having the ball again vs. Cincy, Jax & NYJ.   

I think this bears repeating.

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

I think this bears repeating.

Oops.....

[TBBills Fan]

25 minutes ago, RochesterLifer said:

I think this bears repeating.

Im not sure it is anything like the Bears situation

[ChrisWatson#21]

That was more on Josh because the defender took the inside from Gabe so the throw had to go towards the outside.  However they didn't lose because of Josh they were in that position to win the game because of him and his magnificent play in that game.  

[RousseauRage]

On 11/28/2023 at 6:57 PM, Scott7975 said:

 

I already liked this guy way more than Dorsey.  Now I love this guy way more than Dorsey.  He actually tries to fix the problems instead of just status quo hoping people stop making mistakes.

Sounds like he's telling us it was Allen's fault but trying to take the blame.

[Paul Costa]

Since McDermott is the head coach and they had called a time out earlier in the game to go over this. This was clearly on McDermott. JA17 & Gabe had nothing to do with the pass. It’s the HC fault 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, RousseauRage said:

Sounds like he's telling us it was Allen's fault but trying to take the blame.

 

I disagree.  It sounds like he is taking the blame for not getting these guys on the same page or making a better call. 

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, ChrisWatson#21 said:

That was more on Josh because the defender took the inside from Gabe so the throw had to go towards the outside.  However they didn't lose because of Josh they were in that position to win the game because of him and his magnificent play in that game.  

there was no safety inside so gabe going post there would’ve been a breeze too

[Einstein's Dog]

On 11/29/2023 at 6:46 PM, Shaw66 said:

I really do lay this on Dorsey.  The Gabe-Josh disconnect began last season, so far as I can recall - prior to that they seemed to be truly together.  

 

C'mon Shaw, that's a low blow to Dorsey.  Gabe pretty much ended Dorsey's time here.  Dorsey didn't ruin the Gabe/Allen connection, other way around, the lack of Gabe/Allen did Dorsey in.

 

While i like the two game trial run so far of Brady, Brady had a lot to do with this last loss.  Assuming Brady has seen everything I have seen this  year, there would be no way, an important clutch play should be going to G Davis.  No need for the kill shot there/then, just move the chains and take the end zone shots on first or second downs.

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

there was no safety inside so gabe going post there would’ve been a breeze too

And in the limited time Allen had to survey the field facing a zero blitz this is what Allen would have noticed first.

 

 

[NoSaint]

49 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

And in the limited time Allen had to survey the field facing a zero blitz this is what Allen would have noticed first.

 

 

yup, at that point it’s more approaching a hot read. Inside gives all the grass, an easy target and has the receiver looking towards the qb the whole way potentially

 

 

outside creates an over the outside shoulder catch running away from the qb 

 

in a zero blitz you don’t particularly care about the leverage and want the easy pitch and catch 

[Shaw66]

13 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

C'mon Shaw, that's a low blow to Dorsey.  Gabe pretty much ended Dorsey's time here.  Dorsey didn't ruin the Gabe/Allen connection, other way around, the lack of Gabe/Allen did Dorsey in.

 

While i like the two game trial run so far of Brady, Brady had a lot to do with this last loss.  Assuming Brady has seen everything I have seen this  year, there would be no way, an important clutch play should be going to G Davis.  No need for the kill shot there/then, just move the chains and take the end zone shots on first or second downs.

You're response is completely driven by your distrust of Gabe Davis.  If Davis were as bad as you seem to think he is, he wouldn't be on the field.  Dorsey or Brady or McDermott would have insisted he be on the bunch or off the team entirely. 

 

The Davis criticism on this board is like the Bernard criticism here this summer.  This board was almost unanimously of the view that Bernard was incapable of being the middle linebacker, because of his size, inexperience, and what people saw when he was on the field last year.   Finally, late this summer, I asked why it was that McDermott didn't seem worried about the position and Beane had done absolutely nothing to bring in anyone to get a real middle linebacker on the field.  I suggested that the reason McBeane had done nothing was because they decided they already had someone on the roster who could do the job.  That turned out to be completely correct. 

 

The same is true for Davis.   There simply is no way that Davis would still be on the field if McBeane thought Davis is as bad as people think here say he is.  If he were really that bad, then Daboll should have been fired for playing him, and Dorsey should have been fired for playing him, and Brady would have been instructed when he was hired that he must insert someone else in the starting lineup.   None of that happened for a reason, and the reason is that the Bills organization does not agree with your assessment of Davis's ability. 

 

As for "an important clutch play going to Davis," you seem to misunderstand how football, and all games, are played at the professional level.  At this level, everyone is expected to do his job, and play calling is not done by excluding a player because he isn't trusted.  If a player isn't trusted, he isn't on the field.  That's why, for example, Cook got benched after fumbling on the first play of the game.  He wasn't trusted, so he was given a rest.   Gabriel Davis obviously IS trusted - that's why he's on the field so much.   If he's on the field, then the offense will be executed without regard to the fact that he may have dropped a pass or anything else.  On the play in overtime against the Eagles, Davis wasn't necessarily the primary receiver on the play as called.  He became the primary receiver when he and Allen recognized that the Eagles were in cover zero and Davis had the deep route that would be open.  As I've said before, the problem with that play was that someone made a mistake and didn't execute properly.  It was either Davis or Allen (I think it was Davis), but the real problem was that Allen and Davis hadn't prepared themselves well enough to execute the way they should have.     

[Shaw66]

12 hours ago, NoSaint said:

yup, at that point it’s more approaching a hot read. Inside gives all the grass, an easy target and has the receiver looking towards the qb the whole way potentially

 

 

outside creates an over the outside shoulder catch running away from the qb 

 

in a zero blitz you don’t particularly care about the leverage and want the easy pitch and catch 

Bottom line, I would like to have Brady or someone explain what happened and what should have happened, but we aren't going to get that.  

 

I agree that going to the corner makes the catch tougher for the receiver, because he's looking over his shoulder and running away from the QB.   I think it's tougher also because either the backline or the sideline may come into play, so the receiver has to worry about his feet, too.  On the other hand, as someone said, going to the corner pretty much eliminates any possible safety help.  

 

What Romo said still makes the most sense to me, but who knows how the Bills operate in this situation.  Romo said that in this situation (at least when he was playing), it's the receiver's job to know he's going to be open and to look back to find the ball before he makes his cut.   It's cover zero, everyone knows the QB may have pressure and may have to let the ball go early, and the QB is going to have to make a choice.  The receiver is supposed to find the ball first and just track it.  

 

I agree that where Josh threw it, it was the easiest pitch and catch.   What we don't know is whether in the Bills' system, Josh had the option to pick that throw, or whether he had no reason to believe that Davis ever would expect to find the ball in the middle of the field.  When Davis made his cut and looked for the ball, he seemed surprised to see where Josh had thrown it.  

 

I'd really like to know, but as is pretty much always the case, no one is talking.  

[Einstein's Dog]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

You're response is completely driven by your distrust of Gabe Davis.  If Davis were as bad as you seem to think he is, he wouldn't be on the field.  Dorsey or Brady or McDermott would have insisted he be on the bunch or off the team entirely. 

 

The Davis criticism on this board is like the Bernard criticism here this summer.  

 

The same is true for Davis.   There simply is no way that Davis would still be on the field if McBeane thought Davis is as bad as people think here say he is.  If he were really that bad, then Daboll should have been fired for playing him, and Dorsey should have been fired for playing him, and Brady would have been instructed when he was hired that he must insert someone else in the starting lineup.   None of that happened for a reason, and the reason is that the Bills organization does not agree with your assessment of Davis's ability. 

 

As for "an important clutch play going to Davis," you seem to misunderstand how football, and all games, are played at the professional level.  

Several responses to the bolded.  First is, yes, I have issues of trust with G Davis, and I think an intelligent OC should too.  G Davis mistakes have cost us dearly.  Just because people do not think Davis is good does not mean we think there are better options on our team to take his place.  So no, he would not be off the team entirely.

 

Davis criticism is nothing like Bernard criticism.  People have seen Davis play for several years now.

 

Dorsey was in part fired because of Davis' gaffes.  If we won the NYJ and Denver games I doubt a switch would have been made.  Part of the reason for the resurgence of the offense was the lessening of the targets and dependency on Davis, and to increase the role of Kincaid and Shakir.  I thought Brady knew that.

 

You assume what the Bills organization thinks of Davis.  If the rumors were correct inquiries were made for both OBJ and DHop.

 

"Misunderstand?"  I can't believe you would be that clueless to think the OC has no control over what plays are being called.  Brady has some responsibility here and it doesn't reflect well.  On top of that Brady is now part of the regime that took part in the disgraceful 20 seconds debacle.

[NoSaint]

4 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Bottom line, I would like to have Brady or someone explain what happened and what should have happened, but we aren't going to get that.  

 

I agree that going to the corner makes the catch tougher for the receiver, because he's looking over his shoulder and running away from the QB.   I think it's tougher also because either the backline or the sideline may come into play, so the receiver has to worry about his feet, too.  On the other hand, as someone said, going to the corner pretty much eliminates any possible safety help.  

 

What Romo said still makes the most sense to me, but who knows how the Bills operate in this situation.  Romo said that in this situation (at least when he was playing), it's the receiver's job to know he's going to be open and to look back to find the ball before he makes his cut.   It's cover zero, everyone knows the QB may have pressure and may have to let the ball go early, and the QB is going to have to make a choice.  The receiver is supposed to find the ball first and just track it.  

 

I agree that where Josh threw it, it was the easiest pitch and catch.   What we don't know is whether in the Bills' system, Josh had the option to pick that throw, or whether he had no reason to believe that Davis ever would expect to find the ball in the middle of the field.  When Davis made his cut and looked for the ball, he seemed surprised to see where Josh had thrown it.  

 

I'd really like to know, but as is pretty much always the case, no one is talking.  

oh I’ll 100% agree that it’s possible it’s different in a system - but on a wholistic level I think the inside read is almost always going to be proper. That said, we have seen some basic concepts coached patently incorrect in the offense - so a possibility I hadn’t considered is that Brady had touched up a few reads/techniques out of the gate and perhaps at game speed gabe ran the Dorsey technique and josh threw threw it Brady, for instance. In which case Brady saying it’s his job to ensure they are synced could be more accurate than we realize - and being a little less forthcoming could be him protecting that the on film techniques/reads don’t match the expected ones at this point.

Edited December 6, 2023 by NoSaint

[Cash]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Several responses to the bolded.  First is, yes, I have issues of trust with G Davis, and I think an intelligent OC should too.  G Davis mistakes have cost us dearly.  Just because people do not think Davis is good does not mean we think there are better options on our team to take his place.  So no, he would not be off the team entirely.

 

Davis criticism is nothing like Bernard criticism.  People have seen Davis play for several years now.

 

Dorsey was in part fired because of Davis' gaffes.  If we won the NYJ and Denver games I doubt a switch would have been made.  Part of the reason for the resurgence of the offense was the lessening of the targets and dependency on Davis, and to increase the role of Kincaid and Shakir.  I thought Brady knew that.

 

You assume what the Bills organization thinks of Davis.  If the rumors were correct inquiries were made for both OBJ and DHop.

 

"Misunderstand?"  I can't believe you would be that clueless to think the OC has no control over what plays are being called.  Brady has some responsibility here and it doesn't reflect well.  On top of that Brady is now part of the regime that took part in the disgraceful 20 seconds debacle.

It seems like you think “the play” was a throw to Davis, and that we should’ve called a play to someone else. That’s not how it works, man. The play will usually have 1st/2nd/3rd reads, but it’s the players on the field - both offense and defense - who ultimately decide where the ball goes, or even if the ball goes anywhere. 

[oldmanfan]

Davis is the current whipping boy, replacing Brown whose play has improved.  Brown of course replaced Edmunds, and I can't remember who Edmunds replaced.  And so on.

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

oh I’ll 100% agree that it’s possible it’s different in a system - but on a wholistic level I think the inside read is almost always going to be proper. That said, we have seen some basic concepts coached patently incorrect in the offense - so a possibility I hadn’t considered is that Brady had touched up a few reads/techniques out of the gate and perhaps at game speed gabe ran the Dorsey technique and josh threw threw it Brady, for instance. In which case Brady saying it’s his job to ensure they are synced could be more accurate than we realize - and being a little less forthcoming could be him protecting that the on film techniques/reads don’t match the expected ones at this point.

I hadn't considered that Brady might have changed the technique on some plays, in which case he would really mean that the problem was on him.   I understood his answer to be a the-buck-stops-here answer.   That is, regardless of whoever installed the protocol for a play like that, as the OC he is ultimately responsible whenever a player misses an assignment.   

 

And I agree with you - the inside read is a better.  At a purely amateur, touch football level, as a receiver I would find that both finding the ball and catching the ball would be easier with the throw down the middle.  As I mentioned earlier, I think throwing the ball into the corner immediately causes the receiver to begin worrying about the sideline - I'm much more comfortable if I know I can just roam into the center of the end zone and concentrate on the catch.  

 

And lest we forget as we slice and dice this play is the bigger problem, which is at the end of close games, the Bills always seem to find a mistake to make that costs them the game.  So, as plenty of people have said, there is a level - an important level - where this is a McDermott problem, not a Brady problem.