Joe Brady on the Allen/Davis Miscommunication

[BillsFan130]

54 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Did Josh see the zero blitz presnap and call it out? I'd think that would be his responsibility, not Gabe's.

You seem to think an explanation means blaming. He's telling you why he thinks they failed, which is answering the question being asked.

Again, no one cares about accountability. They only care about results.

Here’s where you’re right and here’s where I believe you’re a bit off.

 

yes they care about results primarily, that’s where you’re right.

 

however:

 

No one wants to be thrown under the bus.

 

And a leader should never do that to his coaches/players. Under any circumstance

 

example: Joe Brady saying “it’s not Josh’s fault or gabes fault, it’s mine”.

 

That is taking ownership.

 

When you say “it starts with me” and then basically blame everyone but yourself essentially, that’s not taking ownership. That’s deflection.

 

Once again and I don’t say this to sound condescending in anyway. I highly recommend you read extreme ownership by Jocko and you’ll understand my issues with McDermott in his post game presses

 

 

 

 

[Cash]

3 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Brady's exactly right: it's on him.  Except that he's only been on the job for two weeks.  

 

The failure of that play was a training issue, and the necessary training takes place in the off-season and continues into the season.  Allen and Davis have to KNOW what to do on that play, know every little aspect of it, and beyond knowing they have to actually do it when the time comes.   Someone screwed up because he wasn't well enough trained, and that problem is an offensive coordinator problem.  It's his job to be sure that his coaches - the QB coach and the wide receiver coach - are holding their players to the appropriate high standard. 

 

During the broadcast, Romo was emphatic about it being Davis's mistake.   He was talking about what he was trained to do, so it might not be the same for the Bills, but he said that going deep against single coverage, when he beats the coverage the wide receiver must look back and find the ball BEFORE making his cut.   If Davis had looked back, he would have tracked the ball into the end zone to win the game.   If that's right, then Davis wasn't trained well enough, and that's on Dorsey and the wide receivers' coach.  Brady was correct organizationally - it's on the OC, but in his defense, he wasn't the OC when Davis should have been drilled about this.  

 

People point to the Davis mistake as another tally on the condemn-Davis ledger.   Yes, it belongs on that side of the ledger, but there was a lot of excellent play from Davis in that game that goes on the other side.  

Phenomenal post, and it really articulates a point that was too often missing from the Dorsey discourse. It drove me nuts hearing people say variations of, “Don’t blame Dorsey; it’s on the players for not executing.” For some things, that’s completely true - Gabe’s dropped pass INT a couple weeks ago for example. 
 

But in this case, the problem was that two players weren’t on the same page. Pretty much by definition, that means the offense wasn’t coordinated. And that’s primarily the responsibility of - you guessed it - the offensive coordinator. 

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, pennstate10 said:

Agree with the lack of next level prep and Allen as leader. 
 

Allen is one of, if not the most talented QB of this century. 
 

But the team has to want to be champions, and put in the off-season work. I don’t think they’re doing so. I get that organized team activities are optional, but these guys are making millions of $ per year. It wouldn’t be so hard to put in a bit more work. 
 

it’s been said that you need to put in 10000 hours to be expert at an activity, whether it’s playing the cello, shooting free throws, or learning the intricacies of option routes. 
 

I don’t see as many miscommunications with other teams. I don’t think Bills are putting in the time. 

First, I agree.

 

I think if you watch mediocre teams, you'll see plenty of miscommunication.  You just don't see it on good teams.  

 

I've been saying something similar about wanting to be champions and putting in the work, but I think it's more than just the hours.   I think McDermott has them putting in the hours.   I think it's really what you're doing when you put in the hours.  Are you mastering the important details and then moving on to the little details and mastering those.   It's not just talking about what to do in this situation, and it's not just about doing it a few times in training.   It's working really hard at it when you do practice, and you do it right, and you promise your teammates that you'll do it right in a game.   It's all of those thing.  

 

I think McDermott has to ask himself whether he's leading these men to do THAT kind of work, and that includes himself.

 

I'm going repeat something I've said before, and I think it's an example of what I'm talking about.   I heard a retired player on the radio, an offensive lineman, a journeyman who'd played on several teams, including the Patriots.   He said that every week the Patriot coaches would give him three to five keys use in the game, things like when the defensive tackle lines up six inches off, instead of head to head, he's stunting.   Things that might happen only two or three times in the game, but things that would give him an edge on two or three plays.  Every week he'd get three to five things specific to the week's opponent, and he said they always correct.   He said no other team did that.  

 

What's the point?  The point is that the Patriots made a fetish out of doing everything right, starting with coaches studying film to figure out keys like that, to coaches communicating them, to players creating an actual advantage on the field.   Everyone committed, everyone working together. 

 

When I look at the Bills persistent failures at key times of the game, I see a team that isn't committed to details like that. 

[Since1981]

Gabe has been out of location many times this year. You’d think after these many yrs the two guys would have this scenario nailed. It’s kind of weird. Someone better than me could search the archives and surely would find the same mirror play, and truth. 
 

intuitively? Gabe is out of sync way more than Diggs so…

[MJS]

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think it's interesting Joe came to that conclusion.  I listen to Locked on Bills and heard that, too.

 

Greg Cosell was on OBL today and he said the opposite.  It's towards the end of the video, but what he says is (to paraphrase) is that in all his years of speaking with NFL coaches that players are taught that on a Zero Blitz, that leaves the middle of the field open and that's where the WRs should go to help their QB.

 

I thought that was a great explanation and it makes perfect sense.  If true (seems to be to me), the onus is on Gabe.

Interesting. Marino mentioned the leverage of the defender and stuff like that, but he also didn't sound too sure.

[Shaw66]

19 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

Gabe has been out of location many times this year. You’d think after these many yrs the two guys would have this scenario nailed. It’s kind of weird. Someone better than me could search the archives and surely would find the same mirror play, and truth. 
 

intuitively? Gabe is out of sync way more than Diggs so…

I really do lay this on Dorsey.  The Gabe-Josh disconnect began last season, so far as I can recall - prior to that they seemed to be truly together.  

 

This season there have been multiple occasions when Davis broke off the route and Josh threw deep (including that intentional grounding call), and several others when the opposite happened.   Then Sunday.   If a rookie had multiple disconnects like, the rookie would sit until he figured it out.  It wasn't a problem for Davis as a rookie or afterward, until Dorsey become the OC.   

5 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

I think there are too many option routes in our offense in general… too many plays go wrong because of a WR reading it differently than Allen 

I don't agree.  I think everyone runs option routes.   It's standard - receiver has to read the defense and make the cuts, and the QB has to make the same read.  That's the fundamental of the back shoulder throw - beat your man, go, side by side or covered, break it off.  Happens all the time.  But this season, for some reason, Davis and Allen aren't reading it the same way.   It's a problem that is the coach's job to fix.  

[34-78-83]

I love you @Shaw66 and you make some great points here and always, but “ It starts with me “ which is something my leadership organization uses in our accountability discussions, is intended to mean “ It starts and ends with me” as in “ The Buck stops here” or I am responsible for the construction, expectations and output of my team as the leader of said team. It’s highly unlikely McD, who preaches accountability as much as Mike Tomlin does in his list of priorities, uses it as a way to excuse himself from the results.

[Shaw66]

5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

It can not be on Allen though, he had to throw the ball before Davis made any break and the WR has the option to go corner or inside, so Allen has to go where he thinks Davis is going to choose based on the coverage.  Doesn't really make either guy wrong, its part of the risk with a WR option when a QB is forced to throw before the break.  Most plays there is more clear choice, on this one, it was pick a direction they are both easy TD's.

 

Based on the look at the time Allen threw it, inside is where it looked like Davis "should" go.  That also doesn't mean its Davis fault either, but I think the bigger issue is that next time, there needs to be a predetermined understanding of where to break on that look vs an option.  

I don't think it's as simple as both guys needing to make the same read about which way to cut.  On the broadcast, Romo said that in that situation, it's the receiver's job to look early and find the ball.  He's supposed to know it's cover zero, and therefore he knows the QB is likely to throw before the break.  It's essentially Josh's option, to pick a side, and it's the receiver's job to find it and get it.  This is operating on the assumption that he's going to beat the defender. 

 

Now, maybe that's just the way the Cowboys ran it, and other teams have other rules.  But he said it as though everyone runs it that way, because the QB is likely throwing under duress and it's up to the receiver to make the play wherever the QB can put the ball.  

 

We don't know what his actions on the bench meant, but it certainly looked like Davis was reacting to his mistake and not just to a missed opportunity.  And Josh's press conference was diplomatic, to say the least.  

 

The important point, as many have been saying, is that it's the coaches' job at this point in the season to have players on the field who can be depended on to execute the play as it's intended.  If they can't run the play correct consistently, then you can't call the play.  

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I love you @Shaw66 and you make some great points here and always, but “ It starts with me “ which is something my leadership organization uses in our accountability discussions, is intended to mean “ It starts and ends with me” as in “ The Buck stops here” or I am responsible for the construction, expectations and output of my team as the leader of said team. It’s highly unlikely McD, who preaches accountability as much as Mike Tomlin does in his list of priorities, uses it as a way to excuse himself from the results.

Well, I don't disagree with that - ultimately it's on McDermott.   I've told this story before:

 

Several years ago a US Navy submarine surfaced and accidentally struck a Japanese ship carrying several dozen Japanese students, like middle school or high school.  Several kids drowned.  I saw the captain of the sub on Larry King one night, and King kept asking him to identify who was responsible.  Was the guy studying the sonar to see if the area where they were surfacing was clear of ships, or his commanding officer, or his?   The captain said, immediately - "it's on me.  I'm responsible for the boat, for everything that happens on the boat, and if something goes wrong, it's because I didn't cause my crew to be prepare.  That's on me." 

 

In that sense, absolutely, it's on McDermott.  And I don't think McDermott would argue with that conclusion.  But in a different sense, when you're trying to fix the problem it's important to find the place where the system failed (the system that McDermott is responsible for and the system that McDermott has to fix).   The point where the system failed, in my mind, is at the OC level, because the HC trusts the OC to train his players to execute, and they didn't.   I think on the org chart, that's Brady, and so Brady said it's on him.  But in truth, he couldn't be expected to train these guys in that kind of detail after only two weeks on the job.  It was Dorsey's failure, and although they're working on it, the real fix can only be accomplished by a competent OC in the off-season.  The coaching techniques and the attitudes of the coaches and players has to change.   

 

Now, there is a broader question that is squarely on McDermott.  McDermott had the wrong OC.  He knew there were problems with Dorsey after his rookie performance, and McDermott decided to give him a second season.   He probably should have pulled the plug on Dorsey earlier than he did.   So, there's all of that.  And there's the question of whether he is the right leader to get his coordinators to be good at their jobs.   He certainly didn't get Dorsey straightened out, and that IS his job.  

[Shaw66]

58 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

Gabe has been out of location many times this year. You’d think after these many yrs the two guys would have this scenario nailed. It’s kind of weird. Someone better than me could search the archives and surely would find the same mirror play, and truth. 
 

 

That's why I see Dorsey's fingerprints.  I'm sure, as you say, that they've connected on the same kind of plays in the past - heck, he caught so many TDs against the Chiefs, ONE of them most have been the same.   The disconnect between the two of them this season suggests they haven't been working on aspects of the game in the same way as they'd done in previous seasons (or under Daboll).

 

The great players all show you that they ALWAYS are working on the details of the game.   I remember watching a Colts game late in the time when Peyton and Harrison were playing together.   During the game, they showed video from pre-game workouts.   Peyton and Harrison were running short out patterns, over and over, working on the timing of the throw, the brake, and the placement of the ball.  These guys already were perhaps the greatest passer-receiver combination of all time, and late in their time together, they were still working on details of a simple play.  

 

I would guess that Dorsey didn't lead Josh and Gabe to continue to work on some details, and that's why we've seen what we've seen. 

[Ray Stonada]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

That's why I see Dorsey's fingerprints.  I'm sure, as you say, that they've connected on the same kind of plays in the past - heck, he caught so many TDs against the Chiefs, ONE of them most have been the same.   The disconnect between the two of them this season suggests they haven't been working on aspects of the game in the same way as they'd done in previous seasons (or under Daboll).

 

The great players all show you that they ALWAYS are working on the details of the game.   I remember watching a Colts game late in the time when Peyton and Harrison were playing together.   During the game, they showed video from pre-game workouts.   Peyton and Harrison were running short out patterns, over and over, working on the timing of the throw, the brake, and the placement of the ball.  These guys already were perhaps the greatest passer-receiver combination of all time, and late in their time together, they were still working on details of a simple play.  

 

I would guess that Dorsey didn't lead Josh and Gabe to continue to work on some details, and that's why we've seen what we've seen. 

Interesting. I felt, reading between the lines, that Josh, Brady and Gabe were implying it was Josh who made the wrong throw (the post instead of corner route) based on the inside leverage Gabe faced. (I don’t know enough to say myself, of course.)
 

According to @HoofHearted as well, Gabe ran the play correctly and it was indeed on Josh.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Ray Stonada

[DCofNC]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Did anyone confirm this part? curious tbh

 

He stacks him right at the 13 which is when Allen lets the ball go, post is an easier throw/catch vs zero than corner

 

there's no leverage once DBs hips flip

It’s all coach speak to say it wasn’t Gabe’s fault, Brady essentially said, the guys weren’t prepared to execute under the circumstances and I knew we would see it, so it’s my fault.   He took the finger pointing away from both guys by simply saying the team wasn’t prepared for the moment.

[Warcodered]

4 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

I think it's interesting Joe came to that conclusion.  I listen to Locked on Bills and heard that, too.

 

Greg Cosell was on OBL today and he said the opposite.  It's towards the end of the video, but what he says is (to paraphrase) is that in all his years of speaking with NFL coaches that players are taught that on a Zero Blitz, that leaves the middle of the field open and that's where the WRs should go to help their QB.

 

I thought that was a great explanation and it makes perfect sense.  If true (seems to be to me), the onus is on Gabe.

 

I can't see why it wouldn't be that, your one on one with a DB, there's no one in the middle of the field. Why would you choose to give him the sideline for assistance instead of breaking for all that space in the middle.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Ray Stonada said:

Interesting. I felt, reading between the lines, that Josh, Brady and Gabe were implying it was Josh who made the wrong throw (the post instead of corner route) based on the inside leverage Gabe faced. (I don’t know enough to say myself, of course.)
 

According to @HoofHearted as well, Gabe ran the play correctly and it was indeed on Josh.

Interesting, as well.  The real point, of course, is not who did it right or wrong, but why they weren't on the same page.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to run a play where there's a 50-50 chance it will fail because two players are both guessing at what to do.  

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Interesting, as well.  The real point, of course, is not who did it right or wrong, but why they weren't on the same page.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to run a play where there's a 50-50 chance it will fail because two players are both guessing at what to do.  

 

This exactly.  It doesn't matter what player is at fault.  We can analyze it to death and never know the true answer.  What matters is that the Bills know who is at fault and corrects the problem.  This is why Dorsey was let go.  He wasn't detail oriented enough and failed to fix the problems. 

[Ray Stonada]

10 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This exactly.  It doesn't matter what player is at fault.  We can analyze it to death and never know the true answer.  What matters is that the Bills know who is at fault and corrects the problem.  This is why Dorsey was let go.  He wasn't detail oriented enough and failed to fix the problems. 

Agreed. I think the Bills were implying that you shouldn’t need telepathy, the assignment is to read the leverage and select the corner route based on inside leverage. Just that Josh didn’t read it that way. Should not be hard to fix in practice, and that’s on Brady. 

[Since1981]

where I’m forever stuck is 3.5 years together…

”0 blitz, WR2, QB1, what do we do?”

[Preds]

On 11/28/2023 at 6:57 PM, Scott7975 said:

 

I already liked this guy way more than Dorsey.  Now I love this guy way more than Dorsey.  He actually tries to fix the problems instead of just status quo hoping people stop making mistakes.

Imagine that, a coach that takes accountability (even though in this case it may not even truly be his fault).  Sure wish the HC had the balls to be accountable for his numerous coaching misconducts, unfortunately all he does is deflect and scapegoat everyone around him,

[bmur66]

Think about it. How would they both know exactly what to do in that particular situation? It’s not that simple. Maybe Gabe needed to look back for the ball a split second sooner. I don’t know. Sure would have been a nice td if it worked out. 

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

This exactly.  It doesn't matter what player is at fault.  We can analyze it to death and never know the true answer.  What matters is that the Bills know who is at fault and corrects the problem.  This is why Dorsey was let go.  He wasn't detail oriented enough and failed to fix the problems. 

I don't know that we know for a fact that this is why Dorsey was gone, but it certainly makes sense.   And, really, that play represents what looks like a problem, but it was only one problem.  The thing that was troubling everyone, starting at game 5, was the disappearance of any offensive flow or effectiveness.  The Bills are 6-6 because the offense substantially underperformed its potential.  With decent offensive performance, like we've seen in the last two games, the Bills would be 9-3 or even 10-2.   

 

It's really frustrating to have blown (absent a miracle) another opportunity.