8th late-game defensive meltdown this season

[dave mcbride]

7 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

They did, but that was the only TD the defense surrendered up to that point.   And also, after the score was tied I believe Josh fumbled the football.  
 

The reason they passed so much against the Jets is because the run game sucked - but I would also attribute to this Dorsey who never seemed to be great at mixing up run and pass plays.  Look how the Bills ran against the Eagles top run defense this week compared to week 1

I'd add that the Jets had basically two possessions in the 4th quarter: an eight-play TD drive and an 8 play FG drive from the Bills 27 in which they converted a 4th and 1 that forced the Bills to burn timeouts. When the Bills got it back, they moved the ball fairly easily but ran out of time and had to settle for a long FG to tie it. Make that stop on 4th, and the game may turn out very differently. But as with so many 4th quarter performances this season, the D could not make a stop in crunch time.  And against Zach Wilson. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by dave mcbride

[T master]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:25 AM, HomeskillitMoorman said:

It’s McD’s specialty 

 

Yah i wish McD would have never dropped those 2 passes for TD's or missed those 2 kicks, if only McD would have made those we would have won the game but that dam HC you just can't trust him in those moments ...

[JohnNord]

5 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I'd add that the Jets had basically two possessions in the 4th quarter: an eight-play TD drive and an 8 play FG drive from the Bills 27 in which they converted a 4th and 1 that forced the Bills to burn timeouts. When the Bills got it back, they moved the ball fairly easily but ran out of time and had to settle for a long FG to tie it. Make that stop on 4th, and the game may turn out very differently. But as with so many 4th quarter performances this season, the D could not make a stop in crunch time.  And against Zach Wilson. 

That’s fine but at the end of the day they surrendered 16 points - most which came off of 4 Josh Allen turnovers.  3 which happened in their own end.  
 

You can’t fault the defense for this game.  It was squarely on the offense and our franchise QB. Who, I’ll also add, went 3-and-out to start overtime resulting in the loss.  

14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

The run game wasn't great, but at the same time you should play it safe and accept punts and a field position game vs an absolutely terrible offense that you're leading by two scores. 

The only way to lose the game was to turn the ball over - which Josh did 4 times

[Bermuda Triangle]

2 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

That’s fine but at the end of the day they surrendered 16 points - most which came off of 4 Josh Allen turnovers.  3 which happened in their own end.  
 

You can’t fault the defense for this game.  It was squarely on the offense and our franchise QB. Who, I’ll also add, went 3-and-out to start overtime resulting in the loss.  

The only way to lose the game was to turn the ball over - which Josh did 4 times

I think reasonable minds would agree that while the offense and ST were very bad that night, all the defense was to stop the Zach Wilson led-offense from scoring a TD.  That night, he completed nearly 70% of his passes, for 10 ypc - compare that to his stats the next two weeks.

[Thriftygamer83]

Considering Sean McDermott's has been battling skin cancer for awhile any criticism due isn't justified right now.  Cannot fire him and he's willing to keep going through it.  We all need to really step back and think about what's going on.  Getting whisked away by ownership and Management before a presser isn't a good thing.  Saw my Grandmother's lung cancer spread to her brain.  

[dave mcbride]

11 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

That’s fine but at the end of the day they surrendered 16 points - most which came off of 4 Josh Allen turnovers.  3 which happened in their own end.  
 

You can’t fault the defense for this game.  It was squarely on the offense and our franchise QB. Who, I’ll also add, went 3-and-out to start overtime resulting in the loss.  

The only way to lose the game was to turn the ball over - which Josh did 4 times

I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. The Bills D made zero plays in crunch time -- i.e., the fourth quarter. All they did was allow the Jets to first move the ball for a TD and second chew up valuable clock at the end.  I never said that they're a bad defense for four quarters of games.  

[Dopey]

On 11/27/2023 at 10:28 AM, mrags said:

I can’t link because I didn’t save them and cannot provide screen shot because the files are too large. But here’s a copy and paste:

 

Nick Veronica @NickVeronica

Follow

The Bills have managed to lose 6 games by 6 points or less in the first 12 weeks of the season.

Congrats, no team in NFL history has done it more than that.

20 others matched that total — most recent were the 2015 Ravens & 2012 Panthers, whose D coordinator you might recognize.

 

And:

Michael F. Florio @MichaelFFlorio

 

Josh Allen threw for 339 yards and 2 TDs, while rushing for 81 and another 2 TDs. Scored 34 points. They lost.

3 times this year Josh Allen has scored to give the Bills a lead with under 2 minutes left and they've gone onto lose. It all comes down to one person

He also threw a pick that gave philly the ball at our 25 yd line that led to a TD, in the 4th qtr. That TD gave them the lead. He's been putting the defense in a bad spot way too often. It's not just his year. It's happening way too much. This failure is a team effort, Josh included. Since the win over Miami he's thrown an int. in 8 straight games. That Int. in the philly game was killer. He literally lost the first Jets game. By himself. Our "best player" cannot lead the league in turnovers and be absolved of any blame. 

 

[Bermuda Triangle]

11 minutes ago, Dopey said:

He also threw a pick that gave philly the ball at our 25 yd line that led to a TD, in the 4th qtr. That TD gave them the lead. He's been putting the defense in a bad spot way too often. It's not just his year. It's happening way too much. This failure is a team effort, Josh included. Since the win over Miami he's thrown an int. in 8 straight games. That Int. in the philly game was killer. He literally lost the first Jets game. By himself. Our "best player" cannot lead the league in turnovers and be absolved of any blame. 

 

And on the series of downs following the INT, the defense allowed a long TD on a 3rd and 15 play.  

[BuffaloRebound]

http://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/buffalo-bills-defense-late-game-collapses-sean-mcdermott-eric-washington-nfl/article_3ffefc4e-8e25-11ee-877e-fb08a163ac71.html

 

McDermott’s defense scheme has always been about disguising coverages in the back 7 with light in the ass guys who can cover.  He also likes light in the ass defensive ends who can bring edge pressure.  A stout 1 tech doesn’t cancel out the lack of size all over the field.  It’s hard to confuse a team for the whole game, especially a good one.  250lb ends, 220lb linebackers and 200lb safeties and CB’s aren’t gonna hold up all game.  Bernard and our LB’s were getting mauled by the Philly guards in the 2nd half.  Mcdermott’s defense might produce good numbers on paper, but it consistently folds in winning time. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

2 hours ago, T master said:

 

Yah i wish McD would have never dropped those 2 passes for TD's or missed those 2 kicks, if only McD would have made those we would have won the game but that dam HC you just can't trust him in those moments ...

 

Are you happy he chose to kneel with 20 seconds left in regulation with an elite QB rather than try to win the game? Or that he burned an extra timeout to let the Eagles regroup and take their time to take the 58 yard field goal to tie it and take us down to 1 time out? Or that we went to a completely soft prevent zone to let them easily catch any short pass they wanted with more than enough time on the clock to drive right down the field without resistance or doing it again in OT? 

 

Do we also need to go back to his entire history of late game postseason gaffes or even just the games from this year? 

 

Look at some of the teams that are in line to make the playoffs who have a QB nowhere close to Josh. This is embarrassing that all McD's been able to do with this team is go .500 and needing a miracle to make the playoffs now. 

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I will agree that Dorsey called a horrible game vs the Jets in the opener. You don't keep throwing when you're up 10 points vs a Zach Wilson-led offense. You just can't.

 

Yeah I got the sense that Dorsey fed Allen's worst impulses. The PA shot play to Diggs from midfield where Allen's 2nd INT happened was an awful play call IMO. And it was designed to go to Diggs the whole time - Sherfield's dig route on the right side was clearly meant to hold Whitehead but he didn't get nearly enough depth to pull him down. Up two scores against Zach Wilson and the Jets mentally reeling after watching Rodgers go down... why are we trying for the one-play dagger at that point?

 

In two games under Joe Brady, if you take out the meaningless hail mary INT Allen has thrown just 1 INT on 82 attempts. That's an excellent INT ratio of just 1.2%, in an offense that features a lot of tight window throws. That is not a coincidence IMO.

 

Coaching on both sides of the ball sunk this season more than anything else.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, JohnNord said:

You can’t fault the defense for this game.  It was squarely on the offense and our franchise QB.

 

Offense definitely bears the bulk of the blame for that loss but that doesn't mean the defense is completely off the hook.

 

Good counterexample - CJ Stroud threw an INT on each of his final two drives against the Cardinals (3 total INTs on the day). One gave the Cardinals the ball at midfield, the other gave them the ball at their own 20. The Texans defense held and did not give up a TD on either of those drives. And that was against Kyler Murrary, not Zack Wilson.

 

So yes the defense has some culpability for the Jets loss, just like the offense has some culpability for the Pats loss. It is never 100% the fault of either side.

[JohnNord]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Offense definitely bears the bulk of the blame for that loss but that doesn't mean the defense is completely off the hook.

 

Good counterexample - CJ Stroud threw an INT on each of his final two drives against the Cardinals (3 total INTs on the day). One gave the Cardinals the ball at midfield, the other gave them the ball at their own 20. The Texans defense held and did not give up a TD on either of those drives. And that was against Kyler Murrary, not Zack Wilson.

 

So yes the defense has some culpability for the Jets loss, just like the offense has some culpability for the Pats loss. It is never 100% the fault of either side.

I agree 100% which is why I’ve challenged people here who want to think of things in binary. 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Dopey said:

He also threw a pick that gave philly the ball at our 25 yd line that led to a TD, in the 4th qtr. That TD gave them the lead. He's been putting the defense in a bad spot way too often. It's not just his year. It's happening way too much. This failure is a team effort, Josh included. Since the win over Miami he's thrown an int. in 8 straight games. That Int. in the philly game was killer. He literally lost the first Jets game. By himself. Our "best player" cannot lead the league in turnovers and be absolved of any blame. 

 

This is bat feces crazy talk.  The suggestion that the INT against the Eagles was a killer when Allen drove the Bills down for what should have been the winning TD in the last 2 minutes is beyond stupid.

 

I guess by responding to you I'm feeding the trolls but damn there are a lot of trolls on 2BD recently.

 

[JohnNord]

31 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I got the sense that Dorsey fed Allen's worst impulses. The PA shot play to Diggs from midfield where Allen's 2nd INT happened was an awful play call IMO. And it was designed to go to Diggs the whole time - Sherfield's dig route on the right side was clearly meant to hold Whitehead but he didn't get nearly enough depth to pull him down. Up two scores against Zach Wilson and the Jets mentally reeling after watching Rodgers go down... why are we trying for the one-play dagger at that point?

 

In two games under Joe Brady, if you take out the meaningless hail mary INT Allen has thrown just 1 INT on 82 attempts. That's an excellent INT ratio of just 1.2%, in an offense that features a lot of tight window throws. That is not a coincidence IMO.

 

Coaching on both sides of the ball sunk this season more than anything else.

I’ve heard people say “play calling is an art and not a science.”  
 

Too often the Bills became one dimensional out of necessity, because they had nothing in the run game - even when they should have been able to run vs. light boxes.  

Thats why everything looked so hard this season and why the offense rarely had any rhythm.  They were mostly trying to throw the ball against a defense who didn’t give 2 shitz about the run game.  
 

Brady changed up the run game a bit and got better production against tougher run defenses the past two weeks.  This opened up things in the passing game and helped out Josh.  

[CincyBillsFan]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Offense definitely bears the bulk of the blame for that loss but that doesn't mean the defense is completely off the hook.

 

Good counterexample - CJ Stroud threw an INT on each of his final two drives against the Cardinals (3 total INTs on the day). One gave the Cardinals the ball at midfield, the other gave them the ball at their own 20. The Texans defense held and did not give up a TD on either of those drives. And that was against Kyler Murrary, not Zack Wilson.

 

So yes the defense has some culpability for the Jets loss, just like the offense has some culpability for the Pats loss. It is never 100% the fault of either side.

Also Stroud threw a terrible INT late in the 4th qtr that handed the Bengals an easy TD. But the Texans as a TEAM rose up and bailed Stroud out grabbing a big win in Cincinnati.

 

The critics of Allen's one INT simply ignore what Chris Simms pointed out: OTHER Bills are allowed to make great plays to bail their QB out and win the game.  Like the Eagles kicker who made a 59 yard FG in a rain storm. 

 

Attaching ALL the responsibility to Allen is insane and leaves me scratching my head.

 

 

[Bermuda Triangle]

9 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I agree 100% which is why I’ve challenged people here who want to think of things in binary. 

You said "You can’t fault the defense for this game.  It was squarely on the offense and our franchise QB" earlier in this thread. 

[JohnNord]

17 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

You said "You can’t fault the defense for this game.  It was squarely on the offense and our franchise QB" earlier in this thread. 

 

Context matters, son.

 

Someone was trying to say the defense was to primarily to blame for the Jets loss.  My argument was that the offense was much more to blame and stand by what I said.  You can’t fault the defense as much as you can with the offense that scored 16 points and the QB that turned the ball over 4 times.  

[Dopey]

3 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

And on the series of downs following the INT, the defense allowed a long TD on a 3rd and 15 play.  

Maybe I should have had the statement "this failure is a team effort, Josh included". Josh gets all the excuses. 8 games in a row with a pick. Can't keep doing that. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

35 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

 

Context matters, son.

 

Someone was trying to say the defense was to primarily to blame for the Jets loss.  My argument was that the offense was much more to blame and stand by what I said.  You can’t fault the defense as much as you can with the offense that scored 16 points and the QB that turned the ball over 4 times.  

Nice backtrack, but I directly quoted you saying this: "You can’t fault the defense for this game.  It was squarely on the offense and our franchise QB".  Your words, not mine.

 

Sounds pretty "binary" to me, son.