8th late-game defensive meltdown this season

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I’m not talking stats or rankings.  Go back and watch the final drive against New England.  You’ll see players missing tackles and committing dumb penalties.  It’s not the scheme of the play calls that failed as much as it, the defense just playing poorly.  

Wow. How about watching the whole game vs NE, which has the worst offense in the NFL??

Edited November 29, 2023 by dave mcbride

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, JohnNord said:

I’m not talking stats or rankings.  Go back and watch the final drive against New England.  You’ll see players missing tackles and committing dumb penalties.  It’s not the scheme of the play calls that failed as much as it, the defense just playing poorly.  

 

Okay. You're on record saying that the worst offense in football putting up 17.1 points and 77.6 yards more than their season average is not on the defensive coaching. You should know that nobody in their right mind will agree with you because that's a ridiculous thing to say. We are not the least talented defense in football even with the injuries. So why do we sometimes play like the worst defense in football?

 

The first play of the final drive you're blaming the players for? It happened because of an incredibly stupid blitz against a team known for screen passes. The play to start the Broncos final drive and the final meaningful play of that drive were both blitzes that led to chunk yards. The first play of Philly's final FG drive was a blitz. The last play of their game winning TD drive was, you guessed it, a blitz.

 

Get out of here exclusively blaming the players when the coaching failures are so plainly obvious.

[Jauronimo]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:24 AM, dave mcbride said:

Granted, the offense has had issues over the course of the season, but it mostly shows up in the fourth quarter, generally speaking. As for the defense in such situations, they have by my count folded 8 times in late-game situations:

 

Pats game

 

Denver game

 

Philly game

 

Giants game (saved by a ridiculous non-call on the last play - that was blatant DPI)

 

Cincy -- couldn't get a stop on Cincy’s final possession late to give Allen one more chance

 

Jax: with the score 11-7 at the beginning of the fourth quarter, they give up 2 long td drives to Jax, with one drive starting at the Jax 7 yard line. Yes, there were injuries, but the D was still steamrolled late in the game — which has been par for the course. To be sure, the offense should have done more early on, but they woke up in the latter part of the game. 

 

TB - the Bills had a dominating two-TD lead and almost blew it by surrendering a penalty-riddled late TD drive and 2-point conversion followed by a near miss of a hail mary after giving up 3 completions to a team with zero timeouts, which allowed TB to get in position to make the throw.

 

First Jets game (with special teams collapsing in OT too) - they had a 13-6 lead in the 4th and gave up a 60-yard TD drive to a horrible QB, allowing the Jets to tie it. Of course, Allen was awful  in that game too, but the Bills D didn’t create any plays late either.

Big props to Dorsey and the offensive for having us in defensive slug matches with the worst offenses in the NFL for half the season. Defense kept us in the Pats, Jax, Denver, and Jets game while the offense did nothing but turn the ball over.  While the collective 6 minute lead we enjoyed in those 4 games was nice I have a hard time with any narrative that the defense let the offense down.  Its really been complementary football in that regard.

 

Lets not forget special teams which might be more deserving of credit for at least 3 losses.

[Bermuda Triangle]

17 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Big props to Dorsey and the offensive for having us in defensive slug matches with the worst offenses in the NFL for half the season. Defense kept us in the Pats, Jax, Denver, and Jets game while the offense did nothing but turn the ball over.  While the collective 6 minute lead we enjoyed in those 4 games was nice I have a hard time with any narrative that the defense let the offense down.  Its really been complementary football in that regard.

 

Lets not forget special teams which might be more deserving of credit for at least 3 losses.

Bolded is blatantly false.  

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Bolded is blatantly false.  

I guess my memory fails me for the opener where they held off Zach Wilson for some time.  In the other three, however:

 

They led for 0 minutes vs. Jax.

They led for 1:46 vs. Pats

They led for 1:55 vs Broncos

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

33 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Big props to Dorsey and the offensive for having us in defensive slug matches with the worst offenses in the NFL for half the season. Defense kept us in the Pats, Jax, Denver, and Jets game while the offense did nothing but turn the ball over.  While the collective 6 minute lead we enjoyed in those 4 games was nice I have a hard time with any narrative that the defense let the offense down.  Its really been complementary football in that regard.

 

Lets not forget special teams which might be more deserving of credit for at least 3 losses.

Special teams has been low key a disaster

[Scott7975]

22 hours ago, Governor said:

Probably none with this defense. Josh put us in a position to win in all of those games under Dorsey. It just wasn’t pretty.

 

I disagree.  I think with this offense we would have at least smoked Denver and NE and the defense wouldn't have matter.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Big props to Dorsey and the offensive for having us in defensive slug matches with the worst offenses in the NFL for half the season. Defense kept us in the Pats, Jax, Denver, and Jets game while the offense did nothing but turn the ball over.  While the collective 6 minute lead we enjoyed in those 4 games was nice I have a hard time with any narrative that the defense let the offense down.  Its really been complementary football in that regard.

 

Lets not forget special teams which might be more deserving of credit for at least 3 losses.

Thank you.

 

A mediocre defense ravaged by injuries and an offense that falls asleep for half the season is how you get a .500 football club.

[Since1981]

I view coaching as at least 50% of games lost in 4Q by one score. Even more damning on coach, when you are LEADING

[dave mcbride]

7 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Big props to Dorsey and the offensive for having us in defensive slug matches with the worst offenses in the NFL for half the season. Defense kept us in the Pats, Jax, Denver, and Jets game while the offense did nothing but turn the ball over.  While the collective 6 minute lead we enjoyed in those 4 games was nice I have a hard time with any narrative that the defense let the offense down.  Its really been complementary football in that regard.

 

Lets not forget special teams which might be more deserving of credit for at least 3 losses.

I specified that I was basically talking about the 4th quarter for both offense and defense, and lord knows the offense shares some blame. But it can’t be argued that the defense chokes all of the time late. The stats back it up - they are great in DVOA in the first parts of games and a disaster at the end. I think they’re last if memory serves. The offense has largely done ok in the fourth quarter. There are a lot of close games in the NFL, as you know, and winning the 4th quarter is often determinative. This is a team with an expected W-L record of 8.5-3.5 and a huge dollar investment in defense. It’s very frustrating.

Edited November 29, 2023 by dave mcbride

[Coach Tuesday]

Starting to suspect @JohnNord is a burner account.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

Bills = Chargers East. At least we have actual fans. 

[Livinginthepast]

McD's problem is that he doesn't make the right calls under pressure and doesn't seem to understand quick enough that what he is doing isn't likely to work or just flat out wont. But he keeps at it. The soft coverage on a team who is running hurry up never works. It happened again in the Philly game on the last drive and its happened in pretty much 4 of the losses and the 2 almost losses, It happened in the Cinci playoff game and it happened in the 13 seconds game. How does a defensive "guru" not get that in the moment? Does McD not have defensive spotter up in the booth to identify in game plays that are failing repeatedly? Can he not switch to Man in those critical situations? Anything different than the sickening prevent D that leads to a loss would be preferred!

[FireChans]

4 hours ago, Since1981 said:

I view coaching as at least 50% of games lost in 4Q by one score. Even more damning on coach, when you are LEADING

Josh single-handedly lost that Jets game. To put that on coaching, at all, is crazy.

[BuffaloRebound]

9 hours ago, JohnNord said:

You did not read what I wrote clearly.  I’m talking about the final drive in the NE game after they took the lead.  Not the entire game (though Phillips and Settle were atrocious), but I digress.  
 

The explosive screen play didn’t happen because of a blitz.  If you go back and watch Stevenson breaks about 4 tackles.  This is not on the coaching staff, play call or scheme.  If Jordan Phillips makes the first tackle, it’s an 8 yard gain.   But he has one of the highest missed tackles rates in the NFL.  That’s not on McDermott.  
 

I never said that it was “all” on the players.  In most cases these failures are a mix of players getting beat on defense and some questionable calls.  

It’s not on McDermott that he keeps bringing back Phillips every year and continues to play him despite poor play and idiotic penalties?  That’s always been my problem with McDermott in addition to wetting his pants at the end of games.  He’s loyal to guys who’ve shown you can’t rely on them in big spots.  

[PBF81]

FWIW, I read somewhere this morning that McD is the only coach in history to have 6 losses by 6 points or less.  

 

 

[JohnNord]

10 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It’s not on McDermott that he keeps bringing back Phillips every year and continues to play him despite poor play and idiotic penalties?  That’s always been my problem with McDermott in addition to wetting his pants at the end of games.  He’s loyal to guys who’ve shown you can’t rely on them in big spots.  

It’s not that he’s loyal to them…it’s all he has on the roster.  So in that sense, maybe you place some of the blame on him and Beane for that but at the end of the day it falls on the players, and in the case of the NE game - injuries.  
 

If you recall, the Bills were without DaQuan Jones and Ed Oliver.  So they had to use Phillips, Tim Settle, and Poona Forna along with Kendall Vickers.  The results were abysmal.  Not only were consistently beaten and to make matters worse Dorian Williams was completely lost.  Tyrel Dodson fared better but still was not great.   This was a big reason why NE had success, which is maddening considering how they’ve looked in other games.  
 

Everyone wants to conflate the final drive of this game with some of the other missteps.  But this was more on the lack of execution than it was about bad play calling or scheme

22 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Josh single-handedly lost that Jets game. To put that on coaching, at all, is crazy.

This is completely true.  The only way the Bills lose to the Jets were if Josh turned the ball over…and he did!

 

In his defense, I think Dorsey was lost as a play caller against a defense like NYJ.  He put too much on Josh making big plays in these games 

[dave mcbride]

12 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

It’s not that he’s loyal to them…it’s all he has on the roster.  So in that sense, maybe you place some of the blame on him and Beane for that but at the end of the day it falls on the players, and in the case of the NE game - injuries.  
 

If you recall, the Bills were without DaQuan Jones and Ed Oliver.  So they had to use Phillips, Tim Settle, and Poona Forna along with Kendall Vickers.  The results were abysmal.  Not only were consistently beaten and to make matters worse Dorian Williams was completely lost.  Tyrel Dodson fared better but still was not great.   This was a big reason why NE had success, which is maddening considering how they’ve looked in other games.  
 

Everyone wants to conflate the final drive of this game with some of the other missteps.  But this was more on the lack of execution than it was about bad play calling or scheme

This is completely true.  The only way the Bills lose to the Jets were if Josh turned the ball over…and he did!

 

In his defense, I think Dorsey was lost as a play caller against a defense like NYJ.  He put too much on Josh making big plays in these games 

I will agree that Dorsey called a horrible game vs the Jets in the opener. You don't keep throwing when you're up 10 points vs a Zach Wilson-led offense. You just can't. That said, the D gave up a big TD drive to the Jets in the 4th that allowed them to tie the game - and they were playing Zach Wilson.

 

And then the horrible low punt and TD return. Christ. What a ridiculous loss.

[JohnNord]

7 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I will agree that Dorsey called a horrible game vs the Jets in the opener. You don't keep throwing when you're up 10 points vs a Zach Wilson-led offense. You just can't. That said, the D gave up a big TD drive to the Jets in the 4th that allowed them to tie the game - and they were playing Zach Wilson.

 

And then the horrible low punt and TD return. Christ. What a ridiculous loss.

They did, but that was the only TD the defense surrendered up to that point.   And also, after the score was tied I believe Josh fumbled the football.  
 

The reason they passed so much against the Jets is because the run game sucked - but I would also attribute to this Dorsey who never seemed to be great at mixing up run and pass plays.  Look how the Bills ran against the Eagles top run defense this week compared to week 1

[dave mcbride]

Just now, JohnNord said:

They did, but that was the only TD the defense surrendered up to that point.   And also, after the score was tied I believe Josh fumbled the football.  
 

The reason they passed so much against the Jets is because the run game sucked - but I would also attribute to this Dorsey who never seemed to be great at mixing up run and pass plays.  Look how the Bills ran against the Eagles top run defense this week compared to week 1

The run game wasn't great, but at the same time you should play it safe and accept punts and a field position game vs an absolutely terrible offense that you're leading by two scores.