Keeping Dorsey blew the season..

[Rocbillsfan1]

I think Josh is a loyal company guy, it just sucks that he is so loyal to people that clearly don’t deserve it. If he does speak up he’s probably labeled a malcontent like Diggs by the media though. I’m in the camp that I’ve been on team Diggs the whole way and have wanted McDermott gone for a while now. 

[BillsShredder83]

What are the odds offense puts up 30+ rest of year, we go 4-1 3-2 or worse, miss playoffs and Brady stays even through a HC change?

 

That's my new worst case scenario is letting a competent OC leave again. I guess If we bring in an OC to be HC there's really no chance he stays unless by sliver of chance their O strategies line up perfectly

[mjt328]

2 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Dorsey wasn’t THE problem but he was a HUGE problem. 

 

Ken Dorsey was the root of the problem on offense.

Yes, we still seem to have trouble with turnovers, penalties and drops.  This offense benefits tremendously by upgrading at WR2, and Josh Allen not having a weekly brain-fart throw.  But even with those issues, we can still score 30+ on good defenses when the playcalling isn't so stale and predictable.  

 

However, the defense's inability to close or show-up in big games is STILL a huge problem.

It was a problem with Leslie Frazier for the last several years.  And it's been even worse with Sean McDermott running the show by himself.

 

Firing Dorsey earlier could have saved the Broncos and Patriots games.

We would be sitting at 8-4 and stressing about the AFC East title instead of just making the playoffs.

But once the postseason rolled around, would it have really made a difference?  This defense would still collapse on itself just like it always does.

 

[since79]

26 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

What are the odds offense puts up 30+ rest of year, we go 4-1 3-2 or worse, miss playoffs and Brady stays even through a HC change?

 

That's my new worst case scenario is letting a competent OC leave again. I guess If we bring in an OC to be HC there's really no chance he stays unless by sliver of chance their O strategies line up perfectly

My worst case scenario, we score 30, Brady gets head coaching gig elsewhere.  Was interviewed last year, so it is likely going to happen again.  He was our fall back when we all thought Dorsey was gone to be a head coach.  To add insult to this we keep McD out of fear of the going backward.

[HomeskillitMoorman]

Keeping McD is what really blew this season, and the last 2. Yeah, Dorsey wasn't it either, but you have to look at the guy who gave him that job and kept him in it too long.

 

But the real issues lie at the very top. If it's not exposed to people now, I don't know what more they need to see. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

17 hours ago, BfloBillsFan said:

Spot on!  If Brady was the OC, Bills would have beaten the NYJ (game 1), Pats, Jags.  That would be 7-3 and a good shot at the #1 seed.

Officiating was arguably a bigger factor today than Mc Dermott 

The Pats???  You think a different OC would have stopped Mac Jones from have a career day?  I know losing is a bummer but at least be more accurate in your scapegoats.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

We need to kill this myth that "Josh chose Dorsey".

 

McD chose Dorsey, and ran the idea by Josh, who gave the thumbs-up because he was already familiar.

 

The amount of influence Josh had in this hiring is reaching mythical heights with the fanbase, and it's just not accurate.

 

Josh got the simple treatment that Wilson wanted in Seattle and Watson wanted in Houston. "Hey, before you make a final decision you might want to run it by your highest paid player and team leader to make sure there arent any surprises and to better promote a united front."

 

That's the extent of it.

 

I believe both Josh and Dorsey have said in the media that Josh lobbied for him as OC.   Josh has also said "my career changed when he walked in the building" about Dorsey.

 

So I think (based on what's been put out there, but I ain't gonna dig for it) it was probably a little bit more than "McD chose Dorsey and ran the idea by Josh", though I can't speak for any "mythical heights" of the fanbase.

 

And I think it was pretty clear that McDermott and/or Beane had reservations about that plan, hence the hiring of two assistants with prior OC experience in Mike Shula and Joe Brady at the same time Dorsey was promoted.

[margolbe]

More of a modern day Dick Jauron.  Need an offensively minded head coach.  Need an aggressive D coordinator.  Also need a new special teams coach, who has been bad.

 

Still up in the air about Beane.  However, if it takes a change from the top to get what we need, so be it.  

 

Players look uptight around McD.  Need someone they respect.  The wait he treats Cook is obscene given he is not the only one making mistakes.

[dma0034]

I want the Bills to draft a WR in the 1st. Hire a new coach, ideally an Offensive minded coach but if they decide to go Defensive HC then keep Brady as OC. Diggs, Kincaid, and a new #2 WR would do some damage. 

 

Bills need a new HC more than anything. McDermott's defense falling apart will never win the Superbowl. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Who was the guy that hired Dorsey ?

We should fire that guy.

[Donuts and Doritos]

6 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Who was the guy that hired Dorsey ?

We should fire that guy.

Josh Allen?

[Shaw66]

18 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Loses to the Jets, Broncos, and Patriots really sunk the season. The offense has looked completely different since Joe Brady took over. Now the offense is clicking but we are now left with zero room for error the rest of the way. McDermott defense wasn’t solid today but they had been playing well up until today. We just put ourselves in a terrible hole due to the terrible offensive play earlier in the year. We waited too long to fire Dorsey

I've found myself thinking this, over and over.  I thought sticking with him after last season was the right thing to do, on the assumption that McDermott's evaluation of him was that he would make progress over what was a shaky first season.  

 

As it played out, what we saw in week one was what we saw starting in week five, but one bad game wasn't enough to fire him.  He followed that with three weeks of big wins, averaging around 40 points a game.  So, you're not going to fire him then.   Then came London, so you're not going to fire him after that.  The Giants game was the first clear sign that something was wrong, the first time McDermott might have said to himself, "I was wrong; he isn't progressing."  

 

But then you have a run of New England, Tampa Bay, and Cincinnati, where it became increasingly clear that Dorsey wasn't the answer.  After the Bengals, there was no choice, which means that McDermott waited too long.   He should have pulled the plugged at least a week earlier, maybe two, maybe even three.  Broncos, Bengals, Patriots all could have been wins, and the season would look a lot different.  

[Matt_In_NH]

Just want to point out the season is not over.  Not a lot of room left for error, maybe one more loss, maybe but its not over.

[bmur66]

Don’t blame Dorsey. Blame whoever made the decision to replace Daboll with someone who has not already proven to be an OC capable of getting the best out of a QB like Allen.

 

[Buffalo716]

14 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'd like to tag a couple of former players here.  I am not a former player of team sports.  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted - I know there are others I'm missing, sorry, speak up.

 

To my understanding, it's a very very slippery and dangerous path for a player to start speaking out against their coach, especially during the season.  That's how you can become a "locker room cancer".  It's even slipperier and more dangerous if the player speaks out against the coach during the season and the coach is then fired. 

 

Think rookie Baker Mayfield speaking out and getting Hue Jackson fired mid-season, then reportedly lobbying for Freddie Kitchens to take over as HC the following year.  Think Carson Wentz arguably getting Mike Groh fired as OC then Doug Pederson fired as HC.  Even Tom Brady's last year in NE when it was rumored he and Belicheck were on the outs, you didn't hear it publicly.  Brady finished the season, voted with his feet in FA, and made his point from afar.

McDermott has said that he meets with Allen weekly.  That would be the time for Allen to privately and 1:1 express any concerns he may have had.  And he may have expressed concerns during those meetings, we don't know and we likely never will.  As it should be.

 

But again, to my understanding, players who succeed and sustain success at a high level do so in part because they are willing to accept appropriate boundaries in the locker room and with the coaching relationship.  When players stop doing this, it can absolutely go off the rails quickly. 

 

And frankly, it really may not have had to do with Dorsey's play designs at all.  It may have been a point of behavior - Dorsey had weird dilated pupils in his press conferences - is he using?  Or communication - we all saw Dorsey having a total meltdown in the press box, and if his style of discussing Allen's play choices was similar or alternating nice guy/meltdown, after a while people just tune that out.  (Don't tell me I have greatness in me 5 minutes after you've been putting me through the shredder)

Or it may have been a point that the Jets game was 5 weeks after Josh injured his shoulder vs. the Giants, and reportedly 5 weeks is about the time it takes for that injury to heal (per Hasselbeck and per Josh's experience with a L shoulder sprain in 2020).

Coaches and players relationships certainly can mold mentorship and family into a high stressful environment based on results

 

Where both are highly dependent on each other... Coaches need players , who buy in and are willing to be coached .... Or their job is on the line ... And on the flip , players need to accept coaching and grow, because if you aren't getting better in the NFL... You're regressing

 

Airing dirty laundry in public ... Especially at the NFL level usually is never good...  These are grown men at the end of the day 

 

I prefer , like McDermott, meet me in the office and let's talk man to man and face to face ... And hash out differences

 

You will get a lot more respect out of the person you are talking to and might even grow the relationship... Taking it to the media is a surefire way to destroy it

Edited November 28, 2023 by Buffalo716

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I believe both Josh and Dorsey have said in the media that Josh lobbied for him as OC.   Josh has also said "my career changed when he walked in the building" about Dorsey.

 

So I think (based on what's been put out there, but I ain't gonna dig for it) it was probably a little bit more than "McD chose Dorsey and ran the idea by Josh", though I can't speak for any "mythical heights" of the fanbase.

 

And I think it was pretty clear that McDermott and/or Beane had reservations about that plan, hence the hiring of two assistants with prior OC experience in Mike Shula and Joe Brady at the same time Dorsey was promoted.

 

Lobbied is in line with my take. I refer friends for jobs and talk them up all the time. It still isnt his decision.

 

Dorsey was brought in by McD in 2019. He was not a Daboll guy. He was a Carolina connection and had been sitting home jobless for 2 years. Josh didnt hire him then, and he didnt hire him as OC.

 

Good on them for hedging their bets, but next time maybe just go find a good OC.

[Big Blitz]

6 hours ago, Virgil said:

 

 

I don't think any of this makes sense.  Long story short.  For a simple fix, how was it not called out by the players sooner, unless it was behind closed doors.  

 

 

 

It very well may have been that’s what Diggs did.  
 

[Peter]

21 hours ago, BillMafia716ix said:

Loses to the Jets, Broncos, and Patriots really sunk the season. The offense has looked completely different since Joe Brady took over. Now the offense is clicking but we are now left with zero room for error the rest of the way. McDermott defense wasn’t solid today but they had been playing well up until today. We just put ourselves in a terrible hole due to the terrible offensive play earlier in the year. We waited too long to fire Dorsey

 

How many game losing drives has our defense given up?

 

The biggest difference in the offense between the last two games and when the offense did not perform before is turnovers.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Peter

[Beck Water]

48 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Lobbied is in line with my take. I refer friends for jobs and talk them up all the time. It still isnt his decision.

 

Dorsey was brought in by McD in 2019. He was not a Daboll guy. He was a Carolina connection and had been sitting home jobless for 2 years. Josh didnt hire him then, and he didnt hire him as OC.

 

Good on them for hedging their bets, but next time maybe just go find a good OC.

 

OK, sure, if your point is that Allen didn't decide to hire him, McDermott did, sure.  We agree.  Hiring and firing assistant coaches was not and is not Josh's decision.

 

My point was that in your OP post I responded to, you said McDermott decided and ran it by Josh...sure, Josh doesn't (and shouldn't) have hiring and firing power, but I think (based on what Josh said at the time and after) he went to bat for Dorsey quite a bit more than "ran it by him" sounds like, and quite a bit beyond what I would personally do in "referring a friend" for a job and recommending them to the hiring manager.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Beck Water

[Governor]

McD blew all of those games late. The offense did just enough to win and McD pulled the rug from under them. It’s what he does.