Keeping Dorsey blew the season..

[Virgil]

3 minutes ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Just because Dorsey can’t call plays and Brady can, doesn’t mean that Josh should also have had the extra burden to call the plays too.  Sure, Josh can audible out of certain looks, but he’s already juggling plenty during a game.

I agree and not saying he should have fixed it himself.   But as the QB and the one relaying and executing the plays, I’m wondering out loud why he didn’t step up and say something 

[MikePJ76]

1 minute ago, Virgil said:

I agree and not saying he should have fixed it himself.   But as the QB and the one relaying and executing the plays, I’m wondering out loud why he didn’t step up and say something 

stop and think about the crap storm that would have come down on Allen and in turn the team had he spoken out of line about anything related to the team.  

 

The narrative was put into place by diggs actions after the bengals loss in the playoffs.   Allen does not get to speak out on these things.

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 minute ago, Virgil said:

I agree and not saying he should have fixed it himself.   But as the QB and the one relaying and executing the plays, I’m wondering out loud why he didn’t step up and say something 

Got it.  Assuming he wasn’t speaking up, maybe he thought he could save the day for Dorsey?  Just like he plays hero ball on the field, he might have the same mentality off the field too.  Or, he didn’t realize Dorsey was putting them in such bad situations, although that seems less likely if others like Diggs were pointing it out.

[Beck Water]

25 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

This is becoming a game of Clue.  "It was Josh Allen, in the training room, with a Theragun!"

 

You made me laugh out loud.  I wish I could like this 1000 times!

[Wayne Arnold]

26 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Dorsey wasn’t THE problem but he was a HUGE problem. 

 

Dorsey may be a meathead but the head coach should have recognized that sooner.

 

20 years from now we'll all look back at the McDermott Era as such a massive waste of time and opportunity. 

[BRH]

28 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Dorsey wasn't the problem.

 

It has always been McDermott. It becomes apparent with each game just how much he stinks.

He’s almost run out of guys to scapegoat and fire.  Daboll, Dorsey, Frazier, Crossman, Farwell, maybe Smiley soon…. Every departure strips him of another buffer/excuse.  Now he’s starting to blame the players.  He always says it starts with him, but then manages to list a bunch of other factors. 
 

I cannot forgive him for not giving Josh a chance at the end of regulation.  That’s when he lost me for good, and probably a bunch of players as well. 

[Since1981]

2 minutes ago, BRH said:

I cannot forgive him for not giving Josh a chance at the end of regulation.  That’s when he lost me for good, and probably a bunch of players as well. 

Natz quietly said "I guess they're looking to kneel and, ah, regroup". A commentator searching for words to explain the unexplainable. 

It is in these very discrete, slow motion moments that you realize bad game coach. :20 sec, 12 men. I focus on these moments as they are VERY crisp on HC.

[Warcodered]

35 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

I mean the Dorsey hire made all the sense in the world. An in-house guy that worked with Josh through his rise, who knew the system, and who Josh liked. It’s just too bad he has the playcalling acumen of a box turtle. 
 

I don’t think it’s any kind of issue that Josh wasn’t public with it. He strikes me as a guy who won’t be publicly angry or critical. 

It made perfect sense and if we're being honest here Josh has had how many offensive coordinators in his career and at what level of competence? There's the high school ones where he didn't even go to a school that'd get him seen by scouts a Junior College and then Wyoming. Here he's had Dabol who's seemed good with him and then we made the decision to stick with a system that worked and a guy who knew it and Allen with Dorsey. Josh was always going to want to make it work with him, but if nothing else Josh is getting some serious experience as to why Dorsey didn't work.

[PBF81]

48 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

Dorsey wasn't the problem.

 

It has always been McDermott. It becomes apparent with each game just how much he stinks.

 

Yeah, it's a real reach to suggest that McD didn't have a strong say in how Dorsey did things.  He even talks about "complimentary football," which could very well be his way of saying that the offense should revolve around the defense.  We'll probably never know, but his fingerprints are over so much that it's likely that that's the case.  

 

It's clear that McD hasn't a clue re: offense.  

 

Brady may be getting more lattitude from McD because McD knows that his a$$ is on the line at this point and he's willing to take that chance and relinquish all control of the O.  

 

 

[Beck Water]

6 minutes ago, Virgil said:

I agree and not saying he should have fixed it himself.   But as the QB and the one relaying and executing the plays, I’m wondering out loud why he didn’t step up and say something 

 

I'd like to tag a couple of former players here.  I am not a former player of team sports.  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted - I know there are others I'm missing, sorry, speak up.

 

To my understanding, it's a very very slippery and dangerous path for a player to start speaking out against their coach, especially during the season.  That's how you can become a "locker room cancer".  It's even slipperier and more dangerous if the player speaks out against the coach during the season and the coach is then fired. 

 

Think rookie Baker Mayfield speaking out and getting Hue Jackson fired mid-season, then reportedly lobbying for Freddie Kitchens to take over as HC the following year.  Think Carson Wentz arguably getting Mike Groh fired as OC then Doug Pederson fired as HC.  Even Tom Brady's last year in NE when it was rumored he and Belicheck were on the outs, you didn't hear it publicly.  Brady finished the season, voted with his feet in FA, and made his point from afar.

McDermott has said that he meets with Allen weekly.  That would be the time for Allen to privately and 1:1 express any concerns he may have had.  And he may have expressed concerns during those meetings, we don't know and we likely never will.  As it should be.

 

But again, to my understanding, players who succeed and sustain success at a high level do so in part because they are willing to accept appropriate boundaries in the locker room and with the coaching relationship.  When players stop doing this, it can absolutely go off the rails quickly. 

 

And frankly, it really may not have had to do with Dorsey's play designs at all.  It may have been a point of behavior - Dorsey had weird dilated pupils in his press conferences - is he using?  Or communication - we all saw Dorsey having a total meltdown in the press box, and if his style of discussing Allen's play choices was similar or alternating nice guy/meltdown, after a while people just tune that out.  (Don't tell me I have greatness in me 5 minutes after you've been putting me through the shredder)

Or it may have been a point that the Jets game was 5 weeks after Josh injured his shoulder vs. the Giants, and reportedly 5 weeks is about the time it takes for that injury to heal (per Hasselbeck and per Josh's experience with a L shoulder sprain in 2020).

[PBF81]

22 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Dorsey may be a meathead but the head coach should have recognized that sooner.

 

20 years from now we'll all look back at the McDermott Era as such a massive waste of time and opportunity. 

 

Or, McD was breathing down Dorsey's neck but not doing so now because he knows his a$$ is on the line.  

 

It is a strong possibility.  

 

Who knows.  We may never know the truth there, but often times things come out after major changes/firings take place.  Diggs for example, he may speak out, or another player that was jilted or diminished by McD's "Process," again, whatever TF that even is.  

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

We need to kill this myth that "Josh chose Dorsey".

 

McD chose Dorsey, and ran the idea by Josh, who gave the thumbs-up because he was already familiar.

 

The amount of influence Josh had in this hiring is reaching mythical heights with the fanbase, and it's just not accurate.

 

Josh got the simple treatment that Wilson wanted in Seattle and Watson wanted in Houston. "Hey, before you make a final decision you might want to run it by your highest paid player and team leader to make sure there arent any surprises and to better promote a united front."

 

That's the extent of it.

[PBF81]

58 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

This is becoming a game of Clue.  "It was Josh Allen, in the training room, with a Theragun!"

 

Funny post!!   

 

But it is a little bit of a game of clue here.  

 

Different roles within the organization should have differing perspectives, just as outsiders, whether they be educated fans, analysts, journalists, etc., have other perspectives, often just as valid as the ones from within.  Then of course add the posters that have connections, etc.  

 

There's a large degree of seeing the forest for the trees associated with this.  For example, the talk about Josh wanting Dorsey as OC.  If true, who knows why that may be.  It's likely that friendship was involved, a familiarity with one another, perhaps a fear on Josh's part about a new OC hired externally with the mysteries that it could bring.  We don't know.  

 

We only know what we know, and what the evidence (play) presents.  

 

But some are tasked with seeing that forest for the trees, aka the bigger picture.  

 

It's often talked about how a coach or GM, etc., are the "experts," but they all have specializations, and in hindsight, aka now, they don't really come across as experts in their specializations even, yet for a while they were blindly given the benefits of the doubt.  

 

Coaches and players are often too in the weeds, or can't see the forest for the trees, which should be considered.  

 

For example, every great WR believes that him getting the ball more translates to getting wins.  Same for RBs and carries.   Again, as merely two examples.  

 

But in any given situation or game, that may actually not be the case for reasons that should be obvious.  

 

Teams are a complex thing, but sometimes if an organization is dominated by a single strong personality, it fails to be as great as it could be if the inputs of the other elements are stifled or ignored.  There's at least circumstantial evidence that this is the case here.  

 

 

[Bruffalo]

36 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

20 years from now we'll all look back at the McDermott Era as such a massive waste of time and opportunity. 

Why wait? Plenty of folks are doing that now. 

[Wayne Arnold]

2 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

Why wait? Plenty of folks are doing that now. 

 

Yeah but we don't know how much longer this torture will continue.

[mrags]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

 

I'm not necessarily blaming Josh, but I do see how you would take it that way.  In this scenario, Josh so happens to be the one delivering the plays and commanding the offense.  

 

While I'm happy the offense appears to be back, it just sits weird with me that it was fixed so easily and not really addressed sooner by anyone else

Here’s my take on this. It is McConservativity. He let go of Dorsey and gave the go ahead to let Brady and Josh be what they are because his seat is hot and his back is against a wall. Josh prolly got a rock hard 6’ erection when McLoser took the handcuffs off. But even though he allowed the offense to do what they do to win games. He is still in charge of the defense and the team overall. And his bend but don’t break conservative values took over at the end. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by mrags

[Roundybout]

There is an awful lot of talk about Josh Allen’s manhood on this place 

[Allen2Moulds]

1 hour ago, Virgil said:

Let me start by saying, there's going to be A LOT of assumptions in this post.

 

Assuming the offense and Josh are back to where we saw them prior to Dorsey being hired, I'm starting to think that the players on the team knew Dorsey was the problem all along and only Diggs had the balls to say something.  If we believe what we hear from the media, Brady is using the same playbook and terminology, just calling the plays to his liking.  This isn't a new system by any means, yet Josh and the offense look magically like they did in 2021.  So, if nothing besides the person calling the plays changed, would that not imply the entire issue was Dorsey's ability to game plan and call plays, not the players or playbook itself?

 

With that, assuming that Dorsey was "Allen's choice" and was let down when Dorsey was fired, is it an issue that Josh didn't speak up sooner?  Or that Josh didn't recognize the issues with the offense sooner?  I understand that players will always take the blame for losses and don't ever throw anyone else under the bus.  But if the problem was as simple as changing the plays, why didn't Josh take more command on the field with audibles or going to management sooner?  

 

I don't think any of this makes sense.  Long story short.  For a simple fix, how was it not called out by the players sooner, unless it was behind closed doors.  

 

 

In my opinion, this is where the lines get a bit blurry. It seems like all the players and coaches genuinely liked Dorsey, and we're vested in his success. I think that because of this, he got a bit more time to try and overcome his shortcomings. Unfortunately it never happened, and it might've cost us the season. If you fire the guy too soon, than you also risk losing the locker room. Delicate balance. I feel like we did it a week or 2 too late.

[LarryMadman]

38 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

It's clear that McD hasn't a clue re: offense.  

 

Brady may be getting more lattitude from McD because McD knows that his a$$ is on the line at this point and he's willing to take that chance and relinquish all control of the O.  

 

 

Yup, I hear this but what if McD had the handcuffs on Dorsey, ultimatly firing Dorsey as the problem on offense, then telling Brady do what you gotta do with zero restraints to again make Dorsey look bad and McD looking justifyiable to everyone in firing Dorsey even though Dorsey wasn't the main problem. McD is a micromanager ego maniac that blames everyone else and never takes blame for his huge continous blunders.

[PBF81]

9 minutes ago, LarryMadman said:

Yup, I hear this but what if McD had the handcuffs on Dorsey, ultimatly firing Dorsey as the problem on offense, then telling Brady do what you gotta do with zero restraints to again make Dorsey look bad and McD looking justifyiable to everyone in firing Dorsey even though Dorsey wasn't the main problem. McD is a micromanager ego maniac that blames everyone else and never takes blame for his huge continous blunders.

 

I hear ya, but if he did that deliberately, then it seemingly backfired on him.

 

Keep in mind, McDimwit was the only one defending Dorsey Peterman-style, other than for Allen passively.  

 

In short, it would have been sabotaging his own team simply with the goal of pointing a finger.  

 

It seems to be more that first part of your last sentence.