What more can Allen do?

[Buffalo ill]

The post is literally titled "what more can allen do" but when throwing 0 vs 1 int is mentioned half the message board starts smearing poo on the walls.  There needs to be an AI remake of the "leave Britney alone kid" video, but for Josh Allen.

 

With that said, he had a good overall game and the coaching/defense let the team down, again.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

9 minutes ago, Buffalo ill said:

The post is literally titled "what more can allen do" but when throwing 0 vs 1 int is mentioned half the message board starts smearing poo on the walls.  There needs to be an AI remake of the "leave Britney alone kid" video, but for Josh Allen.

 

With that said, he had a good overall game and the coaching/defense let the team down, again.

Haha you just criticized everyone doing that  and immediately flipped it around and agreed with everything they were saying in the next paragraph.  Somehow that’s worse than picking a side 😂

[90sBills]

48 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with what you're saying, but I think some of it is on Allen, too.  As I said in what I wrote, above, a truly great quarterback instills in his receivers that they MUST execute for him; there is no other option.   It's not enough to have competitive fire; he has to have that fire consistently, in practice and in games.  That consistent demand on himself and on his teammates is what's necessary for greatness personally and for his team.  Someone the other day says that football has to be an obsession with him.  I think that's true, and I don't think we're seeing that out of him.   Again, I am not for a minute blaming the loss on Allen, but I think he (along with McDermott) needs to lead the team out of their tendency to fail when the game is on the line.  

I think you’re asking something that’s not in Allen’s nature. The type of obsession and commitment you’re talking about cannot be taught. It has to come from within. Allen seems to look at football as a part of his life not the sole focus of his life. There’s nothing wrong with that. Bills can win a superbowl with that. But it won’t be multiple superbowls sure fire hof career that some think he’d have. That kind of career requires the commitment you’re talking about and Allen hasn’t shown that’s what he’s about. 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

 

2.  Related to 1, Josh has to demand more of himself.  A truly great QB does not throw the INT he threw yesterday, and it cost the Bills the game.   Not blaming the loss on Josh, but if he doesn't throw that INT, the Eagles get one less TD.  And, like Davis's screw up, Josh broke down when the pressure was on.  Eagles had just scored to cut the lead to three, and the Bills needed at least a drive and at best a score.  With the pressure on, Josh failed to recognize what was happening on the field and gave the ball to the Eagles.  With a short field, the Eagles scored and that was the beginning of the end.  

 

 

I can't fathom this sentiment.  Great QB's throw bad interceptions in games yet their elite play still pulls their team through.  That was Allen yesterday.  The difference is that the truly great QB's are seldom saddled with truly bad coaches who crumble in big game after big game.

 

You claim that Allen's INT cost the Bills the game.  Then what do you say about missing 2 FG's or Cooks dropped TD pass? 

 

Again Allen is placed under a microscope for a couple of plays in a game where he was flat out spectacular.  This includes driving the length of the field to put the Bills up late in the 4th quarter to only see McD's D let the lead slip away again. How any one watching yesterday's game can throw any shade at Allen's play is beyond me. 

 

 

 

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I can't fathom this sentiment.  Great QB's throw bad interceptions in games yet their elite play still pulls their team through.  That was Allen yesterday.  The difference is that the truly great QB's are seldom saddled with truly bad coaches who crumble in big game after big game.

 

You claim that Allen's INT cost the Bills the game.  Then what do you say about missing 2 FG's or Cooks dropped TD pass? 

 

Again Allen is placed under a microscope for a couple of plays in a game where he was flat out spectacular.  This includes driving the length of the field to put the Bills up late in the 4th quarter to only see McD's D let the lead slip away again. How any one watching yesterday's game can throw any shade at Allen's play is beyond me. 

 

 

 

 

This does seem to be the case…like the Brady pats vs Allen bills comparison in that post really stood out to me.  I can’t recall the pats defense folding with a lead/chance to tie once offhand let alone 6 times in 12 games.  Last season we won 13 because the defense could make plays in that situation occasionally. 

 

Allen throws bad picks for sure nobody is saying he doesn’t… compared to a hypothetically perfect qb though all the nfl qbs suck not just josh 😂. 

Edited November 27, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, 90sBills said:

I think you’re asking something that’s not in Allen’s nature. The type of obsession and commitment you’re talking about cannot be taught. It has to come from within. Allen seems to look at football as a part of his life not the sole focus of his life. There’s nothing wrong with that. Bills can win a superbowl with that. But it won’t be multiple superbowls sure fire hof career that some think he’d have. That kind of career requires the commitment you’re talking about and Allen hasn’t shown that’s what he’s about. 

And in the end Allen has more then played great enough for the Bills to have won at least one Super Bowl in the last few years. And frankly there is nothing I see about Allen's commitment to football that precludes multiple SB wins.

 

What is holding the Bills back is poor coaching and a fatal organizational flaw that has favored the defense over the offense the last few years.  IMO everything else is secondary to this.  Fix the coaching and reorient the Bills organization priorities from defense to offense and their SB window reopens in a season. Keep focusing on what little improvement you can squeeze out of Allen while ignoring the rest and the Bills will continue to flounder in the playoffs.

 

This is football, not rocket science, and the Bills problems have become crystal clear this season.  We saw glimpses previously with "13 seconds" and last seasons uneven 2nd half, but now it's plain for all to see.

 

[Shaw66]

Just now, 90sBills said:

I think you’re asking something that’s not in Allen’s nature. The type of obsession and commitment you’re talking about cannot be taught. It has to come from within. Allen seems to look at football as a part of his life not the sole focus of his life. There’s nothing wrong with that. Bills can win a superbowl with that. But it won’t be multiple superbowls sure fire hof career that some think he’d have. That kind of career requires the commitment you’re talking about and Allen hasn’t shown that’s what he’s about. 

I hear what you're saying.  There are two consequences to that. 

 

1.  You're making it much more difficult to win a Super Bowl, if that's true.  It's really difficult to win with a QB whose engagement ends where you say it does with Josh, because when you get to the playoffs, you're going to be playing guys like Mahomes, Burrow, Tua, Purdy, and Hurts, each of whom is all-in.  

 

2.  Then you really have to decide who goes - Allen or McDermott, because McDermott needs the Allen I described.  If he's not going to get that from Josh, then then McDermott needs a new QB.  McDermott needs a QB who is a true leader, and you're telling me Josh won't ever be that.  If you're not willing to part with McDermott, then Josh has to go. 

 

By the way, I don't agree with your assessment.  I've been saying for years that Josh is John Elway, and Elway played way into his career before he became the leader he needed to be.  McDermott is about being a life-long learner, continuous improvement, etc.   He pitches that mantra to everyone, including Josh, and I think Josh will work this out.   

 

And, by the way, it seems pretty clear now that although he wasn't the only problem, the failures this season rest largely on Dorsey.   (And, if you want to blame McDermott for hiring and keeping Dorsey, I'm not arguing much.)   

 

 

[BillsFan692]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I hear what you're saying.  There are two consequences to that. 

 

1.  You're making it much more difficult to win a Super Bowl, if that's true.  It's really difficult to win with a QB whose engagement ends where you say it does with Josh, because when you get to the playoffs, you're going to be playing guys like Mahomes, Burrow, Tua, Purdy, and Hurts, each of whom is all-in.  

 

2.  Then you really have to decide who goes - Allen or McDermott, because McDermott needs the Allen I described.  If he's not going to get that from Josh, then then McDermott needs a new QB.  McDermott needs a QB who is a true leader, and you're telling me Josh won't ever be that.  If you're not willing to part with McDermott, then Josh has to go. 

 

By the way, I don't agree with your assessment.  I've been saying for years that Josh is John Elway, and Elway played way into his career before he became the leader he needed to be.  McDermott is about being a life-long learner, continuous improvement, etc.   He pitches that mantra to everyone, including Josh, and I think Josh will work this out.   

 

And, by the way, it seems pretty clear now that although he wasn't the only problem, the failures this season rest largely on Dorsey.   (And, if you want to blame McDermott for hiring and keeping Dorsey, I'm not arguing much.)   

 

 

What the heck are you talking about? I'll have what he is having.... there is absolutely zero, and I mean this with all sincerity, ZERO PERCENT chance that this team 'moves on' from Josh Allen in order to keep McDermott.

Edited November 27, 2023 by BillsFan692

[Shaw66]

14 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I can't fathom this sentiment.  Great QB's throw bad interceptions in games yet their elite play still pulls their team through.  That was Allen yesterday.  The difference is that the truly great QB's are seldom saddled with truly bad coaches who crumble in big game after big game.

 

You claim that Allen's INT cost the Bills the game.  Then what do you say about missing 2 FG's or Cooks dropped TD pass? 

 

Again Allen is placed under a microscope for a couple of plays in a game where he was flat out spectacular.  This includes driving the length of the field to put the Bills up late in the 4th quarter to only see McD's D let the lead slip away again. How any one watching yesterday's game can throw any shade at Allen's play is beyond me. 

 

 

 

 

Well, then you can't fathom it.  I can't account for the depths of your understanding. 

 

I think that Allen is like a guy who hits 40 home runs every year but doesn't make the playoffs.   He reminds me of Michael Jordan before Phil Jackson.  Jordan's first few years, he tried to do it all and expected his teammates to do it, too.  Under Jackson, he learned that his teammates never would be able to do what he could do.  He learned that he had to show his teammates the work ethic necessary to be a winner, because his teammates could work as hard as he did.   That's what Brady did, and that's what Allen needs to do.   Rodgers did it in Green Bay, too, but he pissed off some people along the way.   Manning did it in a different way.   But all of them demanded, in one way or another, that everyone on the team, including the QB himself, work as hard as he can to be good every time.  

 

It simply is not enough to say that Davis breaking the wrong was is 100% on Davis.  Davis is going to make that play correct every time only if he sees his QB working every day to make it correct, too.  It's leadership. 

2 minutes ago, BillsFan692 said:

What the heck are you talking about? I'll have what he is having.... there is absolutely zero, and I mean this with all sincerity, ZERO PERCENT chance that this team 'moves on' from Josh Allen in order to keep McDermott.

I didn't recommend it.  I'm just saying that if you believe that Allen will never be a better leader than he is today, then one or the other must go.  There are people on this forum who have said from time to time that the Bills should trade Allen, get the picks, and start over.   I'm not one of them - I don't think you give up on generational talent, ever.  But it's a point of view that I understand.  

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, then you can't fathom it.  I can't account for the depths of your understanding. 

 

I think that Allen is like a guy who hits 40 home runs every year but doesn't make the playoffs.   He reminds me of Michael Jordan before Phil Jackson.  Jordan's first few years, he tried to do it all and expected his teammates to do it, too.  Under Jackson, he learned that his teammates never would be able to do what he could do.  He learned that he had to show his teammates the work ethic necessary to be a winner, because his teammates could work as hard as he did.   That's what Brady did, and that's what Allen needs to do.   Rodgers did it in Green Bay, too, but he pissed off some people along the way.   Manning did it in a different way.   But all of them demanded, in one way or another, that everyone on the team, including the QB himself, work as hard as he can to be good every time.  

 

It simply is not enough to say that Davis breaking the wrong was is 100% on Davis.  Davis is going to make that play correct every time only if he sees his QB working every day to make it correct, too.  It's leadership. 

First we have no idea what Allen does or doesn't do with his teammates.  You're making an assumption that he doesn't hold teammates accountable behind closed locker room doors.  I know one thing for sure, throwing teammates under the bus to the media is NEVER the thing to do and would be piss poor leadership.

 

As for Allen's "lack of a work ethic" how do you know what he does or doesn't do in the off season?  So much that is written abut Allen, particularly the negative stuff are distortions or outright lies.  No one has convinced me that Allen hasn't worked every bit as hard in the off season as some of the guys you mentioned.

 

And IMO not much that happens in Basketball or Baseball is relatable to the NFL.  The NFL is one place where GM & HC make all the difference. 

 

So sorry but when looking at what is keeping the Bills from getting over the hump Allen's working harder and improving his game is way down on my list.  And if the much bigger and important issues facing the Bills aren't corrected nothing Allen can do will change the teams fortunes.

 

 

[ALG1130]

29 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I think you’re asking something that’s not in Allen’s nature. The type of obsession and commitment you’re talking about cannot be taught. It has to come from within. Allen seems to look at football as a part of his life not the sole focus of his life. There’s nothing wrong with that. Bills can win a superbowl with that. But it won’t be multiple superbowls sure fire hof career that some think he’d have. That kind of career requires the commitment you’re talking about and Allen hasn’t shown that’s what he’s about. 

Completely disagree. I have watched enough Allen videos from his early days to current, and the man lives and breathes Football, and you can see how personally he takes losses. I don't think people put into account how mentally taxing this stuff is. I don't think people think about, when you put it all on the line, leave it all on the field, and keep coming up short it no doubt messes you up mentally. I can't even begin to imagine what 13 seconds did to him, especially after that performance, and to constantly be let down. He tries to control the outcome as much as he can(and sometimes it hurts the team, yes) but he can only control so much and it is probably devastating to lose when you left it all on the field. If you think he is not feeling the pressure of trying to get to a SB and win one, for this City and himself, I don't know what to tell you, and how terrible it most likely feels to keep coming up short. As far as I can see, he's not some flashy guy who goes around flaunting his wealth. I think he takes Football very seriously and isn't just about a paycheck or flashy life. People harp on him so much for his off season and want to use it as some excuse for why we don't get it done, meanwhile I am thinking he golfs and spends time with his GF in the offseason so he can center himself and not have a damn mental breakdown!

[LABILLBACKER]

50 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I think you’re asking something that’s not in Allen’s nature. The type of obsession and commitment you’re talking about cannot be taught. It has to come from within. Allen seems to look at football as a part of his life not the sole focus of his life. There’s nothing wrong with that. Bills can win a superbowl with that. But it won’t be multiple superbowls sure fire hof career that some think he’d have. That kind of career requires the commitment you’re talking about and Allen hasn’t shown that’s what he’s about. 

As much as I love Josh and his game, I would have to agree with this.  His dedication for the game could go to another level if he wanted it to.  

[Shaw66]

11 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

First we have no idea what Allen does or doesn't do with his teammates.  You're making an assumption that he doesn't hold teammates accountable behind closed locker room doors.  I know one thing for sure, throwing teammates under the bus to the media is NEVER the thing to do and would be piss poor leadership.

 

As for Allen's "lack of a work ethic" how do you know what he does or doesn't do in the off season?  So much that is written abut Allen, particularly the negative stuff are distortions or outright lies.  No one has convinced me that Allen hasn't worked every bit as hard in the off season as some of the guys you mentioned.

 

And IMO not much that happens in Basketball or Baseball is relatable to the NFL.  The NFL is one place where GM & HC make all the difference. 

 

So sorry but when looking at what is keeping the Bills from getting over the hump Allen's working harder and improving his game is way down on my list.  And if the much bigger and important issues facing the Bills aren't corrected nothing Allen can do will change the teams fortunes.

 

 

A couple of things about this:

 

First, you're almost right - in the NFL, GM and HC make just about all the difference, but not all.   It's GM, HC, and QB.  QB is far and away the most important position on the field, so much so that the other 21 guys are almost interchangeable.   But don't tell me for a minute that the QB, all aspects of the QB performance, are not important to team success.  

 

And no, I can't point you to one article that says Allen is a bad leader.   But I haven't seen the report, anywhere, that says that Allen is the hardest worker on the team.   I'm pretty sure he isn't, because if he were, we'd see those reports.  We saw them all the time about Brady - hardest working guy on the team, year after year.  Manning was well understood to be a coach on the field.   Rodgers is obviously an in-your-face, demanding guy.   Allen isn't described by anyone as any of those things.   So, I'd suggest you not kid yourself into believing he isn't all that he could be. 

 

The question is whether he will become more than he is.  And if your answer to that is no, he won't, then you need to do some planning about how you're going to win with him, because what the HC is going to be saying to the team goes something like this:  "You guys have to work your butts off to make everything perfect.  Except Josh.  Josh is so darn good that he doesn't have to work as hard as you need to work."   That's not a message that McDermott ever will go with.  Some other coach might, and some other coach might make it work.  

Just now, LABILLBACKER said:

As much as I love Josh and his game, I would have to agree with this.  His dedication for the game could go to another level if he wanted it to.  

Frankly, I think it will.   He needs the right coaches to get there, and I also think McDermott will do it.   

[ALG1130]

Well there you go guys. Good thing there are so many expert problem solvers in this forum. All Josh has to do is focus on Football more, work out more, yell at his teammates more, and all our issues are over. You know, I bet if he focuses on Football more in the off season, we will no longer have our defense collapse every time we get a lead. That is right, Josh works more with Palmer, we no longer have to worry about McDermott playing it safe/not to lose, our defense will suddenly learn to put a game away once we get the lead.

 

I hope Josh is in here reading this.

 

Look, I am not saying he cannot make room for improvement, maybe start making more effort to take care of his body etc. Nobody is above room for improvement, but at the end of the day, he has about 5 times this season walked off the field with the lead and less than a minute left, and the defense could not stop the other team. If you think the work he puts in the off season suddenly fixes this trajectory, you do you. 

 

Meanwhile, Chris Simms at the 4:50 mark is spot on!

[90sBills]

51 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I hear what you're saying.  There are two consequences to that. 

 

1.  You're making it much more difficult to win a Super Bowl, if that's true.  It's really difficult to win with a QB whose engagement ends where you say it does with Josh, because when you get to the playoffs, you're going to be playing guys like Mahomes, Burrow, Tua, Purdy, and Hurts, each of whom is all-in.  

 

2.  Then you really have to decide who goes - Allen or McDermott, because McDermott needs the Allen I described.  If he's not going to get that from Josh, then then McDermott needs a new QB.  McDermott needs a QB who is a true leader, and you're telling me Josh won't ever be that.  If you're not willing to part with McDermott, then Josh has to go. 

 

By the way, I don't agree with your assessment.  I've been saying for years that Josh is John Elway, and Elway played way into his career before he became the leader he needed to be.  McDermott is about being a life-long learner, continuous improvement, etc.   He pitches that mantra to everyone, including Josh, and I think Josh will work this out.   

 

And, by the way, it seems pretty clear now that although he wasn't the only problem, the failures this season rest largely on Dorsey.   (And, if you want to blame McDermott for hiring and keeping Dorsey, I'm not arguing much.)   

 

 

I think McD needs Allen more than vice versa. The Bills will be better served moving on from McD than they would Allen imo. 
 

Having watched all of those hof Qbs’ careers from the 80s on I’d say Allen reminds me most of Farve. Plays with a little bit of recklessness and good nature goofiness with his teammates. 

[frostbitmic]

Don't leave more than :10 on the clock after you take the lead.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

I think McD needs Allen more than vice versa. The Bills will be better served moving on from McD than they would Allen imo. 
 

Having watched all of those hof Qbs’ careers from the 80s on I’d say Allen reminds me most of Farve. Plays with a little bit of recklessness and good nature goofiness with his teammates. 

I agree, McD needs Allen more than vice versa.  Absolutely.  Allen is gift for McDermott, and he's still trying to figure out how to take advantage. 

 

I see the Favre comparison, but I think Elway is dead on.   Elway was a threatening, reckless runner, even more so than Josh.  Never racked up the yards Allen got, but still, that's how he played.   And Elway has the biggest arm in the game.  Favre wasn't a natural big arm - he threw with power by putting his whole body into.  Elway and Allen just fling it like no one else in the game. 

[CincyBillsFan]

20 minutes ago, Aimee75 said:

Well there you go guys. Good thing there are so many expert problem solvers in this forum. All Josh has to do is focus on Football more, work out more, yell at his teammates more, and all our issues are over. You know, I bet if he focuses on Football more in the off season, we will no longer have our defense collapse every time we get a lead. That is right, Josh works more with Palmer, we no longer have to worry about McDermott playing it safe/not to lose, our defense will suddenly learn to put a game away once we get the lead.

 

I hope Josh is in here reading this.

 

Look, I am not saying he cannot make room for improvement, maybe start making more effort to take care of his body etc. Nobody is above room for improvement, but at the end of the day, he has about 5 times this season walked off the field with the lead and less than a minute left, and the defense could not stop the other team. If you think the work he puts in the off season suddenly fixes this trajectory, you do you. 

 

Meanwhile, Chris Simms at the 4:50 mark is spot on!

This is the money quote:  "Nobody on the Bills EVER bails Josh Allen out".

 

 

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree, McD needs Allen more than vice versa.  Absolutely.  Allen is gift for McDermott, and he's still trying to figure out how to take advantage. 

 

I see the Favre comparison, but I think Elway is dead on.   Elway was a threatening, reckless runner, even more so than Josh.  Never racked up the yards Allen got, but still, that's how he played.   And Elway has the biggest arm in the game.  Favre wasn't a natural big arm - he threw with power by putting his whole body into.  Elway and Allen just fling it like no one else in the game. 

If McD is STILL trying to figure out how to take advantage of Allen then he has to go NOW.  For crying out loud the template has been clearly established and Bean/Pegula ignore it at their peril.   When you have an elite, special talent at QB you must focus the teams resources on that side of the ball including the coaching. 

[ALG1130]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

This is the money quote:  "Nobody on the Bills EVER bails Josh Allen out".

 

 

Seriously, people should be outraged by that, especially on a Bills message board. Let some talking heads blame Josh with his turnovers on stuff, but the truth is, he is never bailed out, especially after leaving it all on the field, and Bills fans of all should see that, and feel aggravated by it. I know I am. 

[CincyBillsFan]

32 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

A couple of things about this:

 

First, you're almost right - in the NFL, GM and HC make just about all the difference, but not all.   It's GM, HC, and QB.  QB is far and away the most important position on the field, so much so that the other 21 guys are almost interchangeable.   But don't tell me for a minute that the QB, all aspects of the QB performance, are not important to team success.  

 

And no, I can't point you to one article that says Allen is a bad leader.   But I haven't seen the report, anywhere, that says that Allen is the hardest worker on the team.   I'm pretty sure he isn't, because if he were, we'd see those reports.  We saw them all the time about Brady - hardest working guy on the team, year after year.  Manning was well understood to be a coach on the field.   Rodgers is obviously an in-your-face, demanding guy.   Allen isn't described by anyone as any of those things.   So, I'd suggest you not kid yourself into believing he isn't all that he could be. 

 

The question is whether he will become more than he is.  And if your answer to that is no, he won't, then you need to do some planning about how you're going to win with him, because what the HC is going to be saying to the team goes something like this:  "You guys have to work your butts off to make everything perfect.  Except Josh.  Josh is so darn good that he doesn't have to work as hard as you need to work."   That's not a message that McDermott ever will go with.  Some other coach might, and some other coach might make it work.  

Frankly, I think it will.   He needs the right coaches to get there, and I also think McDermott will do it.   

Again we have no idea whether Allen is or isn't the hardest worker on the team.  My guess is based on everything we know is that Allen is among the hardest workers and is by a country mile the most productive and best player on the Bills.  BTW in professional sports those attributes are what real leadership is all abut.

 

That Allen talked about not living & breathing football every minute of the off season seems a lot like what I've heard Mahomes say since the birth of his daughter.  And given the sheer number of commercials he is in no one can claim that Mahomes doesn't set football aside to make sure he has a viable commercial life after football.  

 

 

1 minute ago, Aimee75 said:

Seriously, people should be outraged by that, especially on a Bills message board. Let some talking heads blame Josh with his turnovers on stuff, but the truth is, he is never bailed out, especially after leaving it all on the field, and Bills fans of all should see that, and feel aggravated by it. I know I am. 

The other quote which is also spot on is that Allen has to be perfect for the Bills. Anything less and the Bills struggle and the critics savage Allen.  As Simms noted if Allen had played like Hurts did through the first two and a half quarters of yesterday's game the Bills would have been blown out.  That's the reality that should get fans pissed off.