Has Josh Allen reached his ceiling?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

10 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

 

Do yourself a favor and review the offenses performance in some of the playoff games you think are a wash. 

 

 

 

 

I'm not going to lie. I don't know how any of those expected points are calculated or what they mean. Unless I am reading incorrectly, it looks like the only one it disagrees with me on is the Dolphins WC game? Sorry, I have hard time penalizing an offense that scores 34 points despite turning the ball over 3 times. Yeah, they should have put up a 40 burger easily but at the end of the day they scored 34. It would be like me not calling the Patriots WC game a wash because the defense wasn't perfect like the offense was. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

I'm not going to lie. I don't know how any of those expected points are calculated or what they mean. Unless I am reading incorrectly, it looks like the only one it disagrees with me on is the Dolphins WC game? Sorry, I have hard time penalizing an offense that scores 34 points despite turning the ball over 3 times. Yeah, they should have put up a 40 burger easily but at the end of the day they scored 34. It would be like me not calling the Patriots WC game a wash because the defense wasn't perfect like the offense was. 

You're arguing w a guy that scolded folks for citing Allen's EPA and then without shame threw EP as a discussion point😂😂😂

[CincyBillsFan]

This thread is loaded with the same disgusting mental masturbatory posting by the usual suspects on 2BD throwing shade at Allen.  These fools are simply regurgitating the fake QB narratives circulating throughout the NFL.

 

Take today's Miami/Jets game.  After 11 games Tua has 13 total TO's, including TWO pick 6's, against 22 total TD's.  And the narrative is that he's the point man of a state of the art offense that is both explosive and careful with the ball.  I bet Mickie boy has an Excel Spread Sheet chart to prove it!

 

Meanwhile after 11 games Allen has 15 total TO's against 29 total TD's. And the Allen narrative is that he's a TO machine, careless with protecting the ball on an inconsistent struggling offense. Oh and Allen doesn't read defenses well and doesn't work out in the off season.

 

And we let these trolls get under our skin.

 

 

 

[Mikie2times]

17 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

You're arguing w a guy that scolded folks for citing Allen's EPA and then without shame threw EP as a discussion point😂😂😂

Mostly just you. You did the same offense is good in the playoffs crap Watkins is debating. But when the argument was about EPA you dismissed it. Now you use it as basically your only talking point. It’s how all of you (like 3 or 4 of you here) pick and choose what stats support your argument. If you want one other concise stat to summarize his playoff performance you can pick any of them. Any of these games  his entire stat line is poor.

 

Maybe in the year 2049 we will have enough weapons for Josh.

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

This thread is loaded with the same disgusting mental masturbatory posting by the usual suspects on 2BD throwing shade at Allen.  These fools are simply regurgitating the fake QB narratives circulating throughout the NFL.

 

Take today's Miami/Jets game.  After 11 games Tua has 13 total TO's, including TWO pick 6's, against 22 total TD's.  And the narrative is that he's the point man of a state of the art offense that is both explosive and careful with the ball.  I bet Mickie boy has an Excel Spread Sheet chart to prove it!

 

Meanwhile after 11 games Allen has 15 total TO's against 29 total TD's. And the Allen narrative is that he's a TO machine, careless with protecting the ball on an inconsistent struggling offense. Oh and Allen doesn't read defenses well and doesn't work out in the off season.

 

And we let these trolls get under our skin.

 

 

 

This wouldn’t be complete without adding the 4th Allen apostle. Thank you for your balanced views. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Mikie2times

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Mostly just you. You did the same offense is good in the playoffs crap Watkins is debating. But when the argument was about EPA you dismissed it. Now you use it as basically your only talking point. It’s how all of you (like 3 or 4 of you here) pick and choose what stats support your argument. If you want one other concise stat to summarize his playoff performance you can pick any of them. Any of these games  his entire stat line is poor.

 

Maybe in the year 2049 we will have enough weapons for Josh.

This wouldn’t be complete without adding the 4th Allen apostle. Thank you for your balanced views. 

At least have the decency to do what @FireChansdoes and invent statistics to make your point

[FireChans]

59 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Question 1? Sure it would be great if they balled out in both. How about the defense not showing up in either game though? I mean come on defense.

 

Question2? No. I don't disagree at all. But that is literally the only game the defensive performance outweighed the offense.

 

Let's go through them one by one in chronological order:

 

2019

Texans WC: Wash. Both were good in the first half. Both sucked in the second half. Pretty clear here, I think. No arguments?

 

2020

Colts WC: Offense outperformed the defense. I know you are going to try and explain how this wasn't the case. I'll let you form the first argument on this one and see if it's enough to change my mind. Best case scenario for the defense on this one is that it is a wash, but I really think it leans noticeably to the offense outperforming the defense. 

 

Ravens Divisional: Defense outperforms the offense. No argument from me here.

 

Chiefs Conference Championship: Offense outperforms the defense. Okay, I'll go first on this one. Everyone probably thinks the Divisional game the following year was the Bills defenses worst postseason performance to date in the Allen era. Probably because of 13 seconds and all. But they would be incorrect IMO. In the conference championship game the Bills defense surrendered 38 points with half a quarter to go in the game still. In the divisional round the following year the defense would at least hold the Chiefs to 26 points before wetting the bed with under 2 minutes left in the game to go on to give up 2 TD's and a FG to close out the game.

 

What about the offense? Well, they started the game with scoring drives on their first two possessions to take a 9-0 lead. Remember, they only managed 17 points in the regular season game that year against the same Chiefs defense playing at home. So, in terms of showing up they were already over halfway there through one quarter of play. 

 

Then the Bills defense on the next three Chiefs possessions gave up TD, TD, TD, to give up 21 points in the first half. They only gave up 26 total in the regular season game. The Bills offense would add on a FG to end the half to net 12 points for the first half. Again, only 17 points scored total by the Bills offense in the regular season game. They are well on their way to surpassing that total. They just need the defense to keep it close to their regular season performance and the Bills can have a shot to win the game in the 4th quarter. Instead, they would give up another 10 points in the third and another 7 in the 4th. 

 

The Bills final TD comes with 4 minutes left in the 4th quarter to give them 21 points for the game. Surpassing their regular season total. It's only garbage time at this point because the Bills defense failed in keeping the Chiefs to under 30 points when they held them to 26 in the regular season match up. They have given up 38 on the scoreboard to this point. Bills would tack on another FG. 

 

2021:

Patriots WC: Wash. Giving up 17 to the offenses first ever perfect game maybe doesn't seem like an actual wash or a disservice to the offense. But the bottom line is the defense only gave up 3 points in the first half. That's going to win a lot of games in the postseason unless you have something weird like the Texans WC game. They surrendered two TD's in the second half but at that point you are playing prevent defense because both units did what they were supposed to do. 

 

Chiefs Divisional: Offense outperforms the defense. Don't think we need much more explanation on this one. 

 

2022:

Dolphins WC: Wash. The offense had a dominant game here. They just had too many turnovers including a costly one. But still, 3 turnovers and a dropped TD in the end zone by Knox and they still managed to score 31 points? Yikes. Defense, you don't want to give up 24 points to a third string QB at home. But the offense put the defense in some bad positions. And no matter the QB, the Dolphins still have explosive play makers. 

 

Bengals Divisional: Wash. The defense gives up TD, TD to start the game. The offense goes punt, punt to start the game. And gets their first TD on their 3rd possession. Half time score is 17-7. Giving up 34 points in a game is bad. Only scoring 14 points in a game is also very bad. Neither unit was good. We end up with a one score game at 17-10 halfway through the third quarter. Hey, the Bills defense is doing pretty good right? Bengals still only have 17 points. Well, not really, the Bengals still only have 17 points because the Bills offense started with the ball in the second half and just had a 7+ minute FG drive. Once the Bengals do finally get the ball in the second half, that well rested Bills defense (they probably haven't been on the field in close to an hour) would promptly give up 10 points on the Bengals first two second half possessions. Simply put neither unit was good enough in this game. Total team loss. 

 

My final tally:

 

Bad Washes -2 (Texans and Bengals)

Good Washes- 2 (Patriots and Dolphins)

Defense better- 1 (Ravens)

Offense better- 3 (Cheifs x2 and Colts)

Okay, I'll play this game.

 

Texans - 19

13 points in the first half is good by NFL standards.  0 points allowed in the first half is nearly perfect.

 

Here are the drives second half (with a 13 -0 lead)

Texans - 3 and out

Bills - 4 and out

Texans - fumble forced by Bills D

Bills - start at Texans 38, gain 18 yards, FG

Texans - TD

Bills - fumble

Texans - FG (started at the 50)

Bills - 3 and out

Texans - TD

Bills - TO on downs on our own 39

Texans - TO on downs on OUR 30 with over a minute left

Bills - FG

OT

Texans - 3 and out

Bills - 9 play, 13 yard drive (lmao yeah) - punt

Texans - FG to win.

 

so no. Both sides didn't suck in the second half. The Bills defense forced two TO's in the second half, held the Texans to 3 pts and 0 pts when the Bills fumbled or turned it over on downs on our own side of the field.  The offense didn't generate a single TD in the second half. They had one scoring drive in the second half that wasn't gifted to them by the defense. The defense gave them chance after chance, even forcing a 3 and out in OT and the Bills O could do nothing.  7 second half/OT drives and 6 points (3 off a forced fumbled in FG range already) is HORRIBLE. This was a game Josh and the offense puked away. And that was pretty accepted until this "the defense fails Josh" narrative emerged.

 

Colts - 2020

I think the offense outperformed the defense in this game but I didn't think the defense was really bad. So I'll give this to you.

 

Ravens - 2020

D>O, everyone agrees.

 

Chiefs -2020

Bills O starts out 9-0 with 6 min to go in the 1st Q.  Amazing start. They go to sleep for awhile while the defense gets pummeled. Everyone knows you can't beat the Chiefs with FG's.  The Bills try anyway. 4th Q rolls around, the Bills have scored 6 points since 6 min in the 1st and the Chiefs have scored 31. Woof.  But 31-15, score a TD and you're still alive. Josh throws a pick. Chiefs score on short field. Josh scores to make it look more respectable at 4 min to go in the 4th.  Ball game.

 

I don't agree with your analysis in comparing in to the regular season game and how they performed that year. Both units sucked. Offense went to sleep with a 9 point lead against a team that averaged 29.6 PPG. Defense couldn't stop them after the 1st Q. An average day at the office for the Chiefs + Allen's garbage time points still wouldn't have been enough. Didn't matter because they defense let them get WAY above average.

 

2021

Pats

Chiefs

Agree on both, D was fine vs the Pats and 13 seconds was horrific.

 

2022

Dolphins

Woo boy.

 

The Bills offense put up 31. 24 points by Skylar Thompson. Looks good on paper from an O v D matchup. But here's a fun stat.

 

PFR does an expected points summary. Kinda nifty

 

Offense

Tot -- Total offensive expected points (rushing + passing + penalties)

Pass -- Expected points contributed by passing offense

Rush -- Expected points contributed by rushing offense

TOvr -- Expected points contributed by turnovers on offense

 

The offenses' total was -2.41.  That's how costly the TO's were.

 

Dolphins had 16 FD's, and were 4-16 on third down with 2 TO's. That's a recipe for a win going away. Of course, the offense repaid this pretty good defensive performance (against a backup QB) with 4 TO's.

 

We ultimately won because Josh had the best worst game in Bills history.

 

But let's look at the drives.

 

2nd Q

17-3 with 7 min in the second Q. Man this Game is over, right?

Bills - Josh Allen pick, ball in Bills territoy

Dolphins - FG

Bills - 3 and out, punt returned 50 yards

Dolphins - FG, drive started at Bills 27

 

Okay at this point, there's a minute left in the half. It's 17-9, let's just get to half and grind this out!

 

Bills - Josh Allen pick, PSYCHE

Dolphins - drive started at Bills 18 yard line, TD +2 pt.

 

17-17 just like that thanks to Josh and the offense.

 

Then, with 30 seconds left, Bills get FG so 20-17 at half. A game that was over is now a dogfight.

 

To start the third Q now

 

Dolphins - 3 and out

Bills - Josh Allen fumble TD

Bills- punt

Dolphins - 3 and out

Bills - 3 and out

Dolphins - INT

Bills - TD, drive started on Miami 33.

Dolphins - punt

Bills - TD

Dolphins - TD

Bills- 3 and out

Dolphins - 3 and out

Bills - punt

Dolphins - TOD

Bills - victory formation

 

So no. This was not a wash. The defense allowed 2 FG's and a TD on drives that started on their own 48, 27 and 17 yard line. They forced 2 TO's of their own. Josh has 1 less TO and a game that went to the wire wouldn't have been close.

 

2022

Bengals - team loss

 

So, IMO, games where the O didn't hold up their end of the bargain (i.e play a good enough game to their standard, not excellent) was the 2020 Chiefs, Ravens, Dolphins, Bengals and Texans.

 

Games where the defense didn't hold up their end of the bargain was 2020 Chiefs, 2021 Chiefs, Bengals and arguably the Colts.

 

Games where one side played near perfect and the other didn't come close?  Ravens and 2021 Chiefs.

 

IMO.

 

Damn that was a lot of work.

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

At least have the decency to do what @FireChansdoes and invent statistics to make your point

I got an A in stats at one point, I swear.

Edited November 25, 2023 by FireChans

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Mostly just you. You did the same offense is good in the playoffs crap Watkins is debating.

 

That's my argument?

 

No, I've clearly defined 3 out of 8 games where the offense was bad and/or underperformed the defense. The offense simply wasn't good enough in those games. The Bills are 1-2 in those three games. My argument is that the defense has been bad/underperformed the offense in 5 out of the 8 playoff games. That's my argument, that's it. 

 

If we want to get to the super bowl, let alone win one we are going to have to start having better performances in the postseason from the defense. Three good performances out of every eight isn't likely to get us to the Super Bowl. Unless we catch fire and all three come in a single postseason. 

[90sBills]

8 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

With respect to Mahomes weapons, it could be that teams have now figured out how to defend KC without Hill.

I think you might be on to something here. Just triple cover Kelce. Let their receivers run free downfield. Mahomes will put the ball right in their hands only to see it slip right off. Masterful scheme. 

[FireChans]

28 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

This thread is loaded with the same disgusting mental masturbatory posting by the usual suspects on 2BD throwing shade at Allen.  These fools are simply regurgitating the fake QB narratives circulating throughout the NFL.

 

Take today's Miami/Jets game.  After 11 games Tua has 13 total TO's, including TWO pick 6's, against 22 total TD's.  And the narrative is that he's the point man of a state of the art offense that is both explosive and careful with the ball.  I bet Mickie boy has an Excel Spread Sheet chart to prove it!

 

Meanwhile after 11 games Allen has 15 total TO's against 29 total TD's. And the Allen narrative is that he's a TO machine, careless with protecting the ball on an inconsistent struggling offense. Oh and Allen doesn't read defenses well and doesn't work out in the off season.

 

And we let these trolls get under our skin.

 

 

 

Tua sucks. You won’t hear me argue that. He benefits from great offensive coaching and world class offensive talented and is “good enough” to make it run. 
 

Allen would be a great QB on just about any team. Tua would be mediocre on most.

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I agree that Allen's ceiling is higher than Mahomes and that as a trade off his floor is lower but overall I think they're very similar talents.

I’m not sure how you can conclude this when one guy has taken his team to 3 Superbowl games and the other hasn’t come close. Allen is a tremendous QB and a perfect fit for the Bills. But c’mon. Let’s be realistic. His ceiling is not Mahomes. I’d say if his ceiling is Brett Farve’s career it would be an accomplishment at this point. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

9 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

 

Damn that was a lot of work.

I

 

Haha. Tell me about it. And I'd like to think it makes us better humans for putting in that work but I think I would be lying to ourselves. 

 

Appreciate the work though. 🍺

 

You make some good points with the Texans WC game. Keep in mind the Texans had to go 2/2 on two point conversions against our bed wetting defense to score 19 points in one half of football and force OT. 

 

I had a typo for the Bills score in the Miami game too. It was 34 points scored by the offense, not 31. Yeah it would have been nice to put a 40 burger on them without the INT's or even maybe a 50 burger if Knox catches the TD. We had to sweat it out but at the end of the day the offensive output was too much for Miami to overcome. 

[GoBills808]

39 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Okay, I'll play this game.

 

Texans - 19

13 points in the first half is good by NFL standards.  0 points allowed in the first half is nearly perfect.

 

Here are the drives second half (with a 13 -0 lead)

Texans - 3 and out

Bills - 4 and out

Texans - fumble forced by Bills D

Bills - start at Texans 38, gain 18 yards, FG

Texans - TD

Bills - fumble

Texans - FG (started at the 50)

Bills - 3 and out

Texans - TD

Bills - TO on downs on our own 39

Texans - TO on downs on OUR 30 with over a minute left

Bills - FG

OT

Texans - 3 and out

Bills - 9 play, 13 yard drive (lmao yeah) - punt

Texans - FG to win.

 

so no. Both sides didn't suck in the second half. The Bills defense forced two TO's in the second half, held the Texans to 3 pts and 0 pts when the Bills fumbled or turned it over on downs on our own side of the field.  The offense didn't generate a single TD in the second half. They had one scoring drive in the second half that wasn't gifted to them by the defense. The defense gave them chance after chance, even forcing a 3 and out in OT and the Bills O could do nothing.  7 second half/OT drives and 6 points (3 off a forced fumbled in FG range already) is HORRIBLE. This was a game Josh and the offense puked away. And that was pretty accepted until this "the defense fails Josh" narrative emerged.

 

Colts - 2020

I think the offense outperformed the defense in this game but I didn't think the defense was really bad. So I'll give this to you.

 

Ravens - 2020

D>O, everyone agrees.

 

Chiefs -2020

Bills O starts out 9-0 with 6 min to go in the 1st Q.  Amazing start. They go to sleep for awhile while the defense gets pummeled. Everyone knows you can't beat the Chiefs with FG's.  The Bills try anyway. 4th Q rolls around, the Bills have scored 6 points since 6 min in the 1st and the Chiefs have scored 31. Woof.  But 31-15, score a TD and you're still alive. Josh throws a pick. Chiefs score on short field. Josh scores to make it look more respectable at 4 min to go in the 4th.  Ball game.

 

I don't agree with your analysis in comparing in to the regular season game and how they performed that year. Both units sucked. Offense went to sleep with a 9 point lead against a team that averaged 29.6 PPG. Defense couldn't stop them after the 1st Q. An average day at the office for the Chiefs + Allen's garbage time points still wouldn't have been enough. Didn't matter because they defense let them get WAY above average.

 

2021

Pats

Chiefs

Agree on both, D was fine vs the Pats and 13 seconds was horrific.

 

2022

Dolphins

Woo boy.

 

The Bills offense put up 31. 24 points by Skylar Thompson. Looks good on paper from an O v D matchup. But here's a fun stat.

 

PFR does an expected points summary. Kinda nifty

 

Offense

Tot -- Total offensive expected points (rushing + passing + penalties)

Pass -- Expected points contributed by passing offense

Rush -- Expected points contributed by rushing offense

TOvr -- Expected points contributed by turnovers on offense

 

The offenses' total was -2.41.  That's how costly the TO's were.

 

Dolphins had 16 FD's, and were 4-16 on third down with 2 TO's. That's a recipe for a win going away. Of course, the offense repaid this pretty good defensive performance (against a backup QB) with 4 TO's.

 

We ultimately won because Josh had the best worst game in Bills history.

 

But let's look at the drives.

 

2nd Q

17-3 with 7 min in the second Q. Man this Game is over, right?

Bills - Josh Allen pick, ball in Bills territoy

Dolphins - FG

Bills - 3 and out, punt returned 50 yards

Dolphins - FG, drive started at Bills 27

 

Okay at this point, there's a minute left in the half. It's 17-9, let's just get to half and grind this out!

 

Bills - Josh Allen pick, PSYCHE

Dolphins - drive started at Bills 18 yard line, TD +2 pt.

 

17-17 just like that thanks to Josh and the offense.

 

Then, with 30 seconds left, Bills get FG so 20-17 at half. A game that was over is now a dogfight.

 

To start the third Q now

 

Dolphins - 3 and out

Bills - Josh Allen fumble TD

Bills- punt

Dolphins - 3 and out

Bills - 3 and out

Dolphins - INT

Bills - TD, drive started on Miami 33.

Dolphins - punt

Bills - TD

Dolphins - TD

Bills- 3 and out

Dolphins - 3 and out

Bills - punt

Dolphins - TOD

Bills - victory formation

 

So no. This was not a wash. The defense allowed 2 FG's and a TD on drives that started on their own 48, 27 and 17 yard line. They forced 2 TO's of their own. Josh has 1 less TO and a game that went to the wire wouldn't have been close.

 

2022

Bengals - team loss

 

So, IMO, games where the O didn't hold up their end of the bargain (i.e play a good enough game to their standard, not excellent) was the 2020 Chiefs, Ravens, Dolphins, Bengals and Texans.

 

Games where the defense didn't hold up their end of the bargain was 2020 Chiefs, 2021 Chiefs, Bengals and arguably the Colts.

 

Games where one side played near perfect and the other didn't come close?  Ravens and 2021 Chiefs.

 

IMO.

 

Damn that was a lot of work.

I got an A in stats at one point, I swear.

No judgement🤙

Just think of me as your editor

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Haha. Tell me about it. And I'd like to think it makes us better humans for putting in that work but I think I would be lying to ourselves. 

 

Appreciate the work though. 🍺

 

You make some good points with the Texans WC game. Keep in mind the Texans had to go 2/2 on two point conversions against our bed wetting defense to score 19 points in one half of football and force OT. 

 

I had a typo for the Bills score in the Miami game too. It was 34 points scored by the offense, not 31. Yeah it would have been nice to put a 40 burger on them without the INT's or even maybe a 50 burger if Knox catches the TD. We had to sweat it out but at the end of the day the offensive output was too much for Miami to overcome. 

I would have rather won the Miami game 31- 17, which it would've probably been without all the offensive TO's.

 

It's funny how close our breakdowns were for the most part.  What bothers me the most is the Bills and Chiefs had similar conclusions after 2021. Let's stand pat or take a step back on offense and bulk up defense and OL. They stayed healthy and won a Superbowl. We suffered catastrophic franchise altering injuries and took a major step back.

 

In regards to the overall offense vs defense debate in the NFL, consider these stats.

 

Josh Allen's playoff record when the defense allows 24+ points: 2-3

 

Patrick Mahomes' playoff record when the defense allows 24+ points: 5-3

 

And maybe the question shouldn't be, how do we prevent shootouts, but how do we win shootouts?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

 

And maybe the question shouldn't be, how do we prevent shootouts, but how do we win shootouts?

 

That probably requires a coaching change at the top. 

 

🍺

[Old Coot]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

And we let these trolls get under our skin.

 

[GoBills808]

14 minutes ago, FireChans said:

I would have rather won the Miami game 31- 17, which it would've probably been without all the offensive TO's.

 

It's funny how close our breakdowns were for the most part.  What bothers me the most is the Bills and Chiefs had similar conclusions after 2021. Let's stand pat or take a step back on offense and bulk up defense and OL. They stayed healthy and won a Superbowl. We suffered catastrophic franchise altering injuries and took a major step back.

 

In regards to the overall offense vs defense debate in the NFL, consider these stats.

 

Josh Allen's playoff record when the defense allows 24+ points: 2-3

 

Patrick Mahomes' playoff record when the defense allows 24+ points: 5-3

 

And maybe the question shouldn't be, how do we prevent shootouts, but how do we win shootouts?

If not for 13seconds game those records would be 3-2 and 4-4 respectively

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

If not for 13seconds game those records would be 3-2 and 4-4 respectively

Sure, but it’s not like the Chiefs played a masterful game of defense in that one lol

[Eastport bills]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:32 PM, AZSanta said:

I have been an Allen supporter since he was drafted. I felt he was a perfect fit for the city. He is in year 6 of his career and has put up fairly consistent stats the last 3 years. Have we seen his best football or can he be better? By better I mean 5000+ passing yards and 50+ total tds. I personally believe he has hit his ceiling. I think he is what he is and I think we can win a Super Bowl with him playing at this level. I am just curios what others opinions are as to what they expect from him the rest of his career.

Why would you feel like he has hit a ceiling? The guy has had 3 different OCs in 3 years.  Dorsey’s play calling was so limited and discouraged the running game and Josh’s running dimension intermittently. He’s first coming into his prime and his O-line is improving with a breakaway back in Cook providing a good mix. He’s never had a TE like Kincaid and now he seems to understand taking underneath check downs instead of low percentage chunk plays is not a knock on his manhood. He’s had several ugly games this year( Jets, Broncos,NE, G-Men etc) but many doom merchants are ready to write this guy off.  Reached his ceiling?  One down season and a young All Pro QB is on the other side of the mountain. To qualify this foolishness, the ship jumpers grudgingly say but he’s good enough to win with. Thanks. 

[AZSanta]

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

Why would you feel like he has hit a ceiling? The guy has had 3 different OCs in 3 years.  Dorsey’s play calling was so limited and discouraged the running game and Josh’s running dimension intermittently. He’s first coming into his prime and his O-line is improving with a breakaway back in Cook providing a good mix. He’s never had a TE like Kincaid and now he seems to understand taking underneath check downs instead of low percentage chunk plays is not a knock on his manhood. He’s had several ugly games this year( Jets, Broncos,NE, G-Men etc) but many doom merchants are ready to write this guy off.  Reached his ceiling?  One down season and a young All Pro QB is on the other side of the mountain. To qualify this foolishness, the ship jumpers grudgingly say but he’s good enough to win with. Thanks. 

 I think coaching is holding him back to a degree. My main concern with him is his maturity level and dealing with adversity. You gotta have a high amount of mental toughness to be starting QB in the NFL. I see pouting and what looks  depression in him after games where he is horrible. I think there is potential for him to be better with a better coach and as he gets older and matures. Lets face it the dude is somewhat childish. Its my opinion and I realize I can be way off base here as I have never met the man but that's the vibe he gives off. I hope beyond hope he can take us all the way. This fanbase has suffered long enough with gut wrenching loses and mediocrity. 

[Eastport bills]

34 minutes ago, AZSanta said:

 I think coaching is holding him back to a degree. My main concern with him is his maturity level and dealing with adversity. You gotta have a high amount of mental toughness to be starting QB in the NFL. I see pouting and what looks  depression in him after games where he is horrible. I think there is potential for him to be better with a better coach and as he gets older and matures. Lets face it the dude is somewhat childish. Its my opinion and I realize I can be way off base here as I have never met the man but that's the vibe he gives off. I hope beyond hope he can take us all the way. This fanbase has suffered long enough with gut wrenching loses and mediocrity. 

I think you’re reading a lot into a tremendous competitor disappointed he’s not helping the team win. How do you expect a guy who throws a pick or misses an easy completion to look?  Remember all accounts have Josh unhappy with Dorsey’s game planning. How was Aaron Rodgers body language the last few years in GB? Somewhat childish, my ass. This guy leaves his guts on the field and the offense and defense to a man,would run through a wall for him. Mahomes has looked like a shell of himself this year. Do you think fans are reading into his sideline demeanor?