Beane's draft record - with several players emerging, has your opinion changed at all?

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Devin started 2 games, the last 2 games and in those 2 games what did he do?  Moss was amongst the NFL leaders in rushing before Taylor got back.  So not sure what your point is, both proved to play very good when given chances.

 

But both are ultimately back ups. And two day 2 picks on running backs who are ultimately back ups is not a good value investment.

[Matt_In_NH]

24 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But both are ultimately back ups. And two day 2 picks on running backs who are ultimately back ups is not a good value investment.

What is your definition of a backup?   Singletary started 56 of 61 games he played as a bill including 16 games for three consecutive seasons.   Just because you don’t like him does not make him not a starter. 

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

What is your definition of a backup?   Singletary started 56 of 61 games he played as a bill including 16 games for three consecutive seasons.   Just because you don’t like him does not make him not a starter. 

 

The fact that he is currently the Texans backup. Despite all those starts for the Bills when he hit the FA market he was signed as a backup and paid as a backup.

 

Of course Beane thought he was more than that - he drafted him. But Beane spent two 3rd round picks on players who when the rest of the league got a chance to value they valued as backups. That isn't an opinion. That is the reality.

Edited November 26, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Matt_In_NH]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The fact that he is currently the Texans backup. Despite all those starts for the Bills when he hit the FA market he was signed as a backup and paid as a backup.

 

Of course Beane thought he was more than that - he drafted him. But Beane spent two 3rd round picks on players who when the rest of the league got a chance to value they valued as backups. That isn't an opinion. That is the reality.

I will counter that with beane does not determine who starts.   The coaching staff said he was the starter by their actions.   And he is outperforming the Texans starter significantly this year.   Pierce does

back this week we will see what they do.   I am not trying to be a singletary apologist but he has been a starter for 4 years as an rb and as a draft pick that makes him a starter.  He is 15th in rushing since he came in the league.  As far as draft picks singletary has lived up to his draft position IMO.  No he is not Mccaffrey.  
 

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-rushing-leaders-last-5-years

[GunnerBill]

42 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I will counter that with beane does not determine who starts.   The coaching staff said he was the starter by their actions.   And he is outperforming the Texans starter significantly this year.   Pierce does

back this week we will see what they do.   I am not trying to be a singletary apologist but he has been a starter for 4 years as an rb and as a draft pick that makes him a starter.  He is 15th in rushing since he came in the league.  As far as draft picks singletary has lived up to his draft position IMO.  No he is not Mccaffrey.  
 

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-rushing-leaders-last-5-years

 

He was a starter in Buffalo. The league then paid him and valued him as a backup. You can think the Texans were wrong on that if you like, but that is just you liking him. The facts remain the facts. He was signed and valued as a backup.

Edited November 26, 2023 by GunnerBill

[ProcessTruster]

On 11/20/2023 at 6:20 PM, Mikie2times said:

What's even crazier to me...

 

Imagine if we said in the offseason that AJE would break out. Bernard would perform as well as Edmunds or better. Benford would turn into a solid starter. Shakir would develop as a slot. Cook would be top 3 in the NFL in rushing. Kincaid would be one of our leading receivers. O'Cyrus would perform above the level of a rookie. Ed would play at an All Pro level.  

 

How on earth would that not equal Super Bowl level trajectory for the team? Yet, here we are. Next few weeks could get really interesting if we can build off the Jets game. 

a rash of injuries the key pro bowl players, that's how on earth.  pretty simple actually

[Matt_In_NH]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He was a starter in Buffalo. The league then paid him and valued him as a backup. You can think the Texans were wrong on that if you like, but that is just you liking him. The facts remain the facts. He was signed and valued as a backup.

So the facts that he has been a starter for like 80% of his games don’t count but his contract AAV is the only relevant fact to determine who a starter actually is, got it.  How about some other facts about how much teams pay running backs period?  How about this fact,  singletarys cap hit for the Texans is way bigger than any other rb on their roster.  Who should their starter be?

Edited November 26, 2023 by Matt_In_NH

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

So the facts that he has been a starter for like 80% of his games don’t count but his contract AAV is the only relevant fact to determine who a starter actually is, got it.  How about some other facts about how much teams pay running backs period?  How about this fact,  singletarys cap hit for the Texans is way bigger than any other rb on their roster.  Who should their starter be?

 

I am not interested in who you think "should be" I am talking about who is.

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

a rash of injuries the key pro bowl players, that's how on earth.  pretty simple actually

thanks for breaking that down 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

a rash of injuries the key pro bowl players, that's how on earth.  pretty simple actually

Lame excuses. Every team has injuries.  Our offense has been completely healthy.  

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not interested in who you think "should be" I am talking about who is.

You are also not interested in facts and refuse to acknowledge the position you took is silly. 

[Luka]

I think Beane has proven he can find talent in all rounds of the draft. Whether or not this coaching staff can properly utilize said talent is an entirely different discussion. Even when McDermott can't figure it out, another team typically does. Moss, Singletary, Teller, Hodgins and soon to be Elam. 

[Sierra Foothills]

16 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

Beane was hired in May of 2017 AFTER the 2017 draft. Here are his significant transactions by year:

• Traded away Sammy Watkins and a 6th round pick for EJ Gaines and a 2nd round pick
• Traded away Ronald Darby for Jordan Matthews and a 3rd round pick
• Traded away Marcell Dareus for a 5th round pick
• Traded for Kelvin Benjamin (3rd and 7th round picks)

2018:

• Signed free agents Vontae Davis, Star Lotulelei, Trent Murphy, AJ McCarron, Matt Barkley, Isaiah McKenzie
• Traded Cordy Glenn, #21 and #158 for #12 and #187
• Traded Tyrod Taylor for Cleveland's 3rd rounder (#165)
• Drafted Josh Allen, Tremaine Edmunds, Harrison Phillips, Taron Johnson, Siran Neal, Wyatt Teller, Ray Ray McCloud, Austin Proehl

2019:

• Signed free agents Spencer Long, Cole Beasley, John Brown, Frank Gore, Mitch Morse, Jon Feliciano, Ty Nsekhe, Tyler Kroft, Kevin Johnson, Andre Roberts, LaAdrian Waddle, EJ Gaines, Quinton Spain, TJ Yeldon, Lee Smith
• Drafted Ed Oliver, Cody Ford, Devin Singletary, Dawson Knox, Vosean Joseph, Jaquan Johnson, Darryl Johnson, Tommy Sweeney

2020:

• Signed free agents Mario Addison, Vernon Butler, AJ Klein, Quinton Jefferson, Jon Feliciano, Taiwan Jones and Darryl Williams
• Traded a 1st, 5th, 6th, and 2020 4th rounder for Stefon Diggs and Minnesota's 7th (Dane Jackson).
• Traded Wyatt Teller for Cleveland's 5th and 6th rounders.
• Drafted AJ Epenesa, Zack Moss, Gabriel Davis, Jake Fromm, Tyler Bass, Dane Jackson

2021:

• Traded Zay Jones to Las Vegas for a 5th rounder
• Traded Marshall Newhouse to Carolina for a 7th rounder
• Signed free agents Emmanuel Sanders, Mitchell Trubisky, Matt Breida
• Drafted Gregory Rousseau, Boogie Basham, Spencer Brown, Tommy Doyle, Marquez Stevenson, Damar Hamlin, Rachad Wildgoose, Jack Anderson

2022:

• Released Darryl Williams
• Signed free agents Rodger Saffold, DaQuan Jones, Von Miller, Tim Settle, Jordan Phillips, Shaq Larson, Matt Barkley, Jamison Crowder, Duke Johnson, David Quessenberry, Greg Van Roten, Sam Martin
• Traded for Case Keenum
• Drafted Kaiir Elam, James Cook, Terrell Bernard, Kahlil Shakir, Matt Araiza, Christian Benford, Luke Tenuta, Baylon Spector

2023:

• Signed free agents Kyle Allen, Deonte Harty, Connor McGovern, Trent Sherfield, Damien Harris, David Edwards, Taylor Rapp, Latavius Murray, Poona Ford, Leonard Floyd, Ty Johnson, Germain Ifedi, Josh Norman, Leonard Fournette, Linval Joseph
• Drafted Dalton Kincaid, O'Cyrus Torrence, Dorian Williams, Justin Shorter, Nick Broeker, Alex Austin
• Traded for Rasul Douglas

If I missed anything please let me know and I'll add it.

 

So according to this research, Beane:

• Has drafted 44 players since becoming Bills GM. Of those players,
• 23 are still on the team.
• 16 are starters.
• 5 are starters for other teams.

This is while drafting for a team which is a perennial contender and has had generally low draft positions... and a team which has been very aggressive both in the free agent market and in the trade market.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

You are also not interested in facts and refuse to acknowledge the position you took is silly. 

 

No. My position was when someone other than the team who drafted them took a view on the value of both Singletary and Moss they concluded they are backups.

 

Personally I was surprised Singletary didn't find a starting job somewhere. It was always my contention he was a bottom end level starter and ideally suited to a change of pace role, but I expected him to find one of the 32 starting jobs. He didn't. His best offer was backup in Houston.

[JGMcD2]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No. My position was when someone other than the team who drafted them took a view on the value of both Singletary and Moss they concluded they are backups.

 

Personally I was surprised Singletary didn't find a starting job somewhere. It was always my contention he was a bottom end level starter and ideally suited to a change of pace role, but I expected him to find one of the 32 starting jobs. He didn't. His best offer was backup in Houston.

Beane drafted Singletary and Moss hoping that they would start in the NFL, but Houston and Indianapolis were able to make those determinations years later with NFL tape. With the same tape, Brandon Beane also made the same determination. 
 

I get what you’re saying, but is that necessarily a fair evaluation? These teams are making decisions with way different sets of facts and information on the player. 
 

 

[Einstein]

9 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Devin started 2 games, the last 2 games and in those 2 games what did he do?  Moss was amongst the NFL leaders in rushing before Taylor got back.  So not sure what your point is, both proved to play very good when given chances.

 

The point was pretty clear. Neither player is doing anything to hang your hat on.

 

Devin has had 2 good games (out of 10) and both were against reeling teams without a Qb. Zach was quickly discarded as soon as Taylor came back.

 

You act as if they’re setting the league on fire.  They’re not. Devin couldn’t even get a starring shot until halfway through the season and Zach was thrown into the trash heap after game 8.

[Sierra Foothills]

Even when you set aside Zack Moss and Devin Singletary (and please do), there has been real or fan-perceived improvement by the following players : Ed Oliver, AJ Epenesa, Spencer Brown, James Cook, Terrell Bernard, Kahlil Shakir.

 

All 6 of these picks look better now than they did in August.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Sierra Foothills

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

Beane drafted Singletary and Moss hoping that they would start in the NFL, but Houston and Indianapolis were able to make those determinations years later with NFL tape. With the same tape, Brandon Beane also made the same determination. 
 

I get what you’re saying, but is that necessarily a fair evaluation? These teams are making decisions with way different sets of facts and information on the player. 
 

 

Of course. But isn't the initial point Beane should get some sort of bonus for drafting Singletary and Moss based on their performances this year? I'd submit that is because they are both now in role they are best suited to which is a role not worthy of a day 2 pick. 

 

I think Moss is close to bust status as a Bills draft pick. They gave up on him early year 3. Singletary isn't that he was just an average pick and an average player.

 

[Chaos]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Of course. But isn't the initial point Beane should get some sort of bonus for drafting Singletary and Moss based on their performances this year? I'd submit that is because they are both now in role they are best suited to which is a role not worthy of a day 2 pick. 

 

I think Moss is close to bust status as a Bills draft pick. They gave up on him early year 3. Singletary isn't that he was just an average pick and an average player.

 

Does their performance this season somehow increase the productivity/value the Bills got from the draft pick used for them?

[GunnerBill]

36 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Does their performance this season somehow increase the productivity/value the Bills got from the draft pick used for them?

 

No. It wasn't me making that point. Was the OP.