Jets @ Bills Postgame thread

[Low Positive]

1 hour ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Why do they just choose players that can get away with this?  Because they have a cool nickname?

Wait until Kool-Aid hits the league.

[Beck Water]

19 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

I think you're giving short shrift to the unreal frequency of execution errors that killed drive after drive. It was worse than the turnovers, imo; more frustrating anyways.

I suspect that Dorsey was not a details guy in practice and that might be the biggest positive result from the change.

 

Agreed on the more traditional game plan; been whining for years that it's the best thing you can do for Allen.

 

*nodding* 

It's one train of thought to perceive Dorsey as a 'fall guy', a meaningless sacrifice to the team's execution errors and poor play

"It's about the Jimmies and Joes, not the X's and O's"

 

but

 

Another train of thought would be, it's on the coaches to communicate effectively and demand focus and execution in practice that will carry through to the game

Maybe....Dorsey had some shortcomings in that department?

 

I must have heard Josh Allen say more than a dozen times over Dorsey's tenure words to the effect, "the QB has to see the field the same way as the OC does and be his eyes on the field".  Maybe there was something incompatible between Dorsey and Josh, in the process of trying to get Josh to mesh with him like that?  Or, thinking back to the Miami heatstroke game last year and Dorsey's outburst in the booth, and Morse talking about how the "Holy Spirit comes out him" and "you don't want to be on the receiving end" - maybe there was something about how Dorsey would communicate to Josh that wasn't working.

 

Don't know, obviously, but when a team is making unforced errors by the bushel, it does seem plausible that coaching (which is a lot about communication) may have something to do with it.

 

 

[Simon]

7 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

Don't know, obviously, but when a team is making unforced errors by the bushel, it does seem plausible that coaching (which is a lot about communication) may have something to do with it.

 

Yep, when it's that frequent and widespread, Coach becomes the common denominator. 

 

 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

Yep, when it's that frequent and widespread, Coach becomes the common denominator.

 

I don't want to be That Guy who trash talks someone who's out the door.

 

But Dorsey always had a weird affect to me.  In his weekly "coordinator pressers", for most of them he had a very fixed posture as though someone had skewered his head neck and torso, rendering them immoveable relative to each other.  And, his pupils always seemed very dilated.  I just told myself "maybe he's just uncomfortable talking to the press".  Also while dilated pupils are linked in the public mind to drugs of possible abuse such as amphetamines and cocaine, I know that many legit prescribed medications for nausea, seizure disorders, Parkinson's, antidepressants etc can cause dilated pupils.

 

So I told myself don't judge, don't assume, probably he builds great rappore and communicates great with the players and it's just the press conferences that are weird.

 

After he was fired, though, it does seem fair to ask was he just the "chosen sacrifice", or, was there something where he had an issue, and/or where he in fact wasn't communicating to the players any more effectively than he communicated to the press?

[AlfaBill]

3 hours ago, Warcodered said:

Sauce has a very specific style of play.

Should change his Nick name to ball gravy. He’s sticky like my balls in the Florida summers 

[GoBills808]

5 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Why do they just choose players that can get away with this?  Because they have a cool nickname?

believe they called holding on that play

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

*nodding* 

It's one train of thought to perceive Dorsey as a 'fall guy', a meaningless sacrifice to the team's execution errors and poor play

"It's about the Jimmies and Joes, not the X's and O's"

 

but

 

Another train of thought would be, it's on the coaches to communicate effectively and demand focus and execution in practice that will carry through to the game

Maybe....Dorsey had some shortcomings in that department?

 

I must have heard Josh Allen say more than a dozen times over Dorsey's tenure words to the effect, "the QB has to see the field the same way as the OC does and be his eyes on the field".  Maybe there was something incompatible between Dorsey and Josh, in the process of trying to get Josh to mesh with him like that?  Or, thinking back to the Miami heatstroke game last year and Dorsey's outburst in the booth, and Morse talking about how the "Holy Spirit comes out him" and "you don't want to be on the receiving end" - maybe there was something about how Dorsey would communicate to Josh that wasn't working.

 

Don't know, obviously, but when a team is making unforced errors by the bushel, it does seem plausible that coaching (which is a lot about communication) may have something to do with it.

 

 

 

At the time some of us were saying the booth outburst was not a good look for a leader. It was completely out of control. And out of control leadership isn't a good trait.

[Logic]

10 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It feels that way on overreaction Monday.........but it's really not that big of an indictment of the work of Dorsey personally, IMO.   

 

Dorsey had his shortcomings but ultimately the players on offense are the most to blame for keeping many games too close this season with volumes of inexcusable turnovers...........

 

I don't disagree that the players are largely to blame for the offensive struggles this season.

However, I've said it before and I'll keep going back to it: When MULTIPLE players on offense are committing inexcusable turnovers week after week -- are looking sloppy, executing poorly, and exhibiting poor ball security -- I believe it's still an indictment on the offensive coordinator. McDermott has said that he likes to let his coordinators completely run their side of the ball. So if Ken Dorsey was the ultimate offensive boss, then it was his job to preach ball security, to emphasize attention to detail, and ultimately, to get his team ready to play on Sundays.

Videos I saw online this week of Joe Brady's first practices as OC showed him running routes with the WRs, doing ball security drills with the QBs using a jousting stick type implement -- in short, he was being a hands-on coach, and he was attacking the areas in which the Bills have struggled. 

Now maybe Dorsey was doing these things, too, though I didn't see a single video online all season of him being hands-on in this way in practice. Furthermore, McDermott's recent comments about "doing things the right way in the margins" on offense certainly seemed to suggest that he was not happy with some of the NON-playcalling aspects of Dorsey's performance.

It would be unreasonable to COMPLETELY blame an offensive coordinator for the failures of his players on Sundays. But it would be just as unreasonable, in my opinion, to completely dismiss his role in those failures, particularly when they haven't been a big issue with many of these same players in past seasons.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Logic

[Solomon Grundy]

10 hours ago, Low Positive said:

Wait until Kool-Aid hits the league.

I'm still waiting on Greedy😎

[Yobogoya!]

12 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

It's inexcusable that he can get away with this routinely, while Rasul got flagged for PI on textbook coverage. 

 

What a f'n joke. 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

At the time some of us were saying the booth outburst was not a good look for a leader. It was completely out of control. And out of control leadership isn't a good trait.

 

 

I can't imagine how your opinion of Daboll has fallen with all the tirades and berating of players on the sidelines he's done since his totally unprepared team took the field this season.  

[Bob in STL]

15 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I think the bigger problem is Hurts is dangerous running the ball himself.  Our guys don't chase QBs so well.

Depends.  They didn't chase Russell Wilson very well but no one else has either.   

 

It hurts to tackle Hurts.  He is like a fullback-quarterback player.  Just contain him, keep them in 3rd an long.  

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I can't imagine how your opinion of Daboll has fallen with all the tirades and berating of players on the sidelines he's done since his totally unprepared team took the field this season.  

 

Yea they are bad looks. I have always said that about Daboll. He reigned it in most of his time here but I HATE seeing leaders in uncontrollable rages. It is just bad leadership. 

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I don't disagree that the players are largely to blame for the offensive struggles this season.

However, I've said it before and I'll keep going back to it: When MULTIPLE players on offense are committing inexcusable turnovers week after week -- are looking sloppy, executing poorly, and exhibiting poor ball security -- I believe it's still an indictment on the offensive coordinator. McDermott has said that he likes to let his coordinators completely run their side of the ball. So if Ken Dorsey was the ultimate offensive boss, then it was his job to preach ball security, to emphasize attention to detail, and ultimately, to get his team ready to play on Sundays.

Videos I saw online this week of Joe Brady's first practices as OC showed him running routes with the WRs, doing ball security drills with the QBs using a jousting stick type implement -- in short, he was being a hands-on coach, and he was attacking the areas in which the Bills have struggled. 

Now maybe Dorsey was doing these things, too, though I didn't see a single video online all season of him being hands-on in this way in practice. Furthermore, McDermott's recent comments about "doing things the right way in the margins" on offense certainly seemed to suggest that he was not happy with some of the NON-playcalling aspects of Dorsey's performance.

It would be unreasonable to COMPLETELY blame an offensive coordinator for the failures of his players on Sundays. But it would be just as unreasonable, in my opinion, to completely dismiss his role in those failures, particularly when they haven't been a big issue with many of these same players in past seasons.

Agree.

 

The pre snap penalties, missed assignments, drops, etc .... When they are chronic issues, like the Bills were for 6 weeks, you look at their coach.  

 

Practice should always include covering the basics of each position and the timing of the entire unit.  Even when they become as natural as breathing.  

[BADOLBILZ]

53 minutes ago, Logic said:

I don't disagree that the players are largely to blame for the offensive struggles this season.

However, I've said it before and I'll keep going back to it: When MULTIPLE players on offense are committing inexcusable turnovers week after week -- are looking sloppy, executing poorly, and exhibiting poor ball security -- I believe it's still an indictment on the offensive coordinator. McDermott has said that he likes to let his coordinators completely run their side of the ball. So if Ken Dorsey was the ultimate offensive boss, then it was his job to preach ball security, to emphasize attention to detail, and ultimately, to get his team ready to play on Sundays.

Videos I saw online this week of Joe Brady's first practices as OC showed him running routes with the WRs, doing ball security drills with the QBs using a jousting stick type implement -- in short, he was being a hands-on coach, and he was attacking the areas in which the Bills have struggled. 

Now maybe Dorsey was doing these things, too, though I didn't see a single video online all season of him being hands-on in this way in practice. Furthermore, McDermott's recent comments about "doing things the right way in the margins" on offense certainly seemed to suggest that he was not happy with some of the NON-playcalling aspects of Dorsey's performance.

It would be unreasonable to COMPLETELY blame an offensive coordinator for the failures of his players on Sundays. But it would be just as unreasonable, in my opinion, to completely dismiss his role in those failures, particularly when they haven't been a big issue with many of these same players in past seasons.

 

 

Hey,  I like the Brady hiring because I think he has a great foundation.......but he was definitely terrible in Carolina.   I remember watching it and thinking how idiotic some of the calls were for such a hot commodity at OC.   That's why he didn't get another OC job right away.   It was brutal.  It would be a mistake to think they just hired a guy who can take his and beat yours or yours and beat his at this stage in his career.     He's a work in progress and he claims that he now knows that he has to tailor his offense around the players instead of his scheme.  

 

As was Dorsey a work in progress.........who some team will eventually hire as an OC and their fans will be ecstatic because he was Josh Allen's QB coach and his offensive production has been so great (as opposed to Daboll who was league worst the first 3 times he was fired as an NFL OC).    And Dorsey will likely address the complaints about his work at his next job.    First time OC's don't usually get to take over SB contenders and rookie one's basically NEVER get to a SB.    You gotta' go back to Mike Holmgren with the 49ers in the 1980's and that was taking over an offense that had just won the SB the year before. 

 

Ultimately,  I think Dorsey mostly just got caught up in Josh stuff.   Josh injuries.  Josh drama.   Josh immaturity.  Josh f*cking off offseasons.   Players following Josh's sadness lead this season.   Josh is the sword that the OC will live or die by and they needed to do something to get Allen focused and excited about the project.    Hopefully it lasts and they can build off of it.

[Dukestreetking]

21 hours ago, BRH said:

I would be interested in breaking FD:Tgt down further, e.g., 1-5 yards and 5+ yards to go for first down.  I could be wrong, but at this point in their careers, Kincaid seems to get comparatively more targets on 1st down than Kelce, which skews the percentages somewhat.

Intrigued by your point... I didn't do a comparative, but looked at DK down-distance results.

 

To me, surprising, but bottom line: he's feasting on down and 10+ yards. Big plus-ups across the board.

 

33 rec on 35 targets (94.3%!), 308 yds at 9.3y/rec, 12FD, 2TD.

 

Now we're very much into Beasley territory. Don't know about Kelce.

[BADOLBILZ]

9 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

Agree.

 

The pre snap penalties, missed assignments, drops, etc .... When they are chronic issues, like the Bills were for 6 weeks, you look at their coach.  

 

Practice should always include covering the basics of each position and the timing of the entire unit.  Even when they become as natural as breathing.  

 

 

Coaching AND the on-field leadership.   

 

 

[Warcodered]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

At the time some of us were saying the booth outburst was not a good look for a leader. It was completely out of control. And out of control leadership isn't a good trait.

Yeah clearly that was the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

Yeah clearly that was the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That isn't an out of control reaction from Brady. I am not saying coaches can't show emotion. I am saying out of control is always a red flag. Dorsey's reaction at Miami was unhinged. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Hey,  I like the Brady hiring because I think he has a great foundation.......but he was definitely terrible in Carolina.   I remember watching it and thinking how idiotic some of the calls were for such a hot commodity at OC.   That's why he didn't get another OC job right away.   It was brutal.  It would be a mistake to think they just hired a guy who can take his and beat yours or yours and beat his at this stage in his career.     He's a work in progress and he claims that he now knows that he has to tailor his offense around the players instead of his scheme.  

 

As was Dorsey a work in progress.........who some team will eventually hire as an OC and their fans will be ecstatic because he was Josh Allen's QB coach and his offensive production has been so great (as opposed to Daboll who was league worst the first 3 times he was fired as an NFL OC).    And Dorsey will likely address the complaints about his work at his next job.    First time OC's don't usually get to take over SB contenders and rookie one's basically NEVER get to a SB.    You gotta' go back to Mike Holmgren with the 49ers in the 1980's and that was taking over an offense that had just won the SB the year before. 

 

Ultimately,  I think Dorsey mostly just got caught up in Josh stuff.   Josh injuries.  Josh drama.   Josh immaturity.  Josh f*cking off offseasons.   Players following Josh's sadness lead this season.   Josh is the sword that the OC will live or die by and they needed to do something to get Allen focused and excited about the project.    Hopefully it lasts and they can build off of it.

 

It may be as simple as Allen needing to better understand the WHYs.  Allen's generation doesn't like to work for the sake of working - they want to understand why they're being asked to do something.  You need them to understand the goal and how the work relates to that goal in order to get their buy-in.  Maybe Brady can do a better job explaining to Allen the various WHYs, why we need to study tendencies on film all week, why we need to take the dump-offs for the first few quarters until the safeties move up, why we are running specific plays at specific times etc.  If Allen feels like he's "just running the plays that are called" and doesn't understand or believe in the WHYs, he's simply not going to be close to his best self.  

 

Just a theory.