Time to rewrite the Conventional Wisdom on the playoff loss to Bengals--and the new CW on Dorsey too

[PBF81]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:44 PM, Mister Defense said:

 

In truth, I think he is to blame--he hired someone completely incompetent, who didn't seem to know even the basics of game planning, game changes, formations, at least beyond the very superficial.

 

Was there an extensive interview process involved?  It doesn't seem there was, and that maybe Dorsey was just put into the position.

 

And I definitely blame McDermott for not firing him as soon as the season ended last year--and then again when the team looked almost exactly the same in their first preseason game.

 

The buck stops with the head coach, in my book. 

 

Let's see how this move, too late maybe?, works, but Sean will be held to account, to some degree if this is a lost season.

 

A huge part of McD's problem is that he, admittedly, doesn't know offense, which is a monumental problem when Allen is the focal point of your team.  

 

Yet, he stood by Dorsey like he stood by Peterman, ignorantly.  

 

If Allen had shown up before McD, McD never would have gotten this particular job.  He's a better fit for a team that has an average or even mediocre QB, and that has acquiesced to their D being the focal point of their team. 

 

And since we were talking about how the Bills would have to go through the interview process to make Brady the OC, why didn't they have to do that with Dorsey after Daboll left? 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

And since we were talking about how the Bills would have to go through the interview process to make Brady the OC, why didn't they have to do that with Dorsey after Daboll left? 

 

 

 

They did. They interviewed three people I think. Ken Dorsey was one, Tee Martin (currently Ravens QB coach but was then WR coach) was a second and I'm sure there was one more but it is escaping me now who that was.

 

EDIT: It was Edgar Bennett the former Packers OC. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by GunnerBill

[VaMilBill]

Dorsey was a terrible OC. I was happy he was promoted to OC with the departure of Daboll. But the second half of last season was pretty evident that he did not have the ability to be a good OC. It looked like our offensive scheme was to let josh go out there and make things happen. 
 

I had seen enough of Ken after last season and wanted him fired because we can’t keep wasting Josh’s prime. I really thought when we brought him back that was a mistake. But I also thought he should be on a short leash in the very least (didn’t seem like he leash was short enough). He should have been fired after the patriots game this year. At that point our offense was lower middle class and wasn’t really doing much to help out our team. 
 

It’s funny, Ken may go down as one of the worst coaches the bills have ever employed save Kay Stephenson and some other old farts I have no clue about. I’m only 30

[Mister Defense]

15 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

 

My sense is that the "big picture concept" that Brady is doing is the same "concept" that Dorsey tried to do but in an exceptionally incompetent manner. 

 

What I mean by "big picture concept" is to transition our offense around Allen from one that Allen carries by himself to one that carries him and allows him to make great plays only when we need great plays from him.

 

Basically, we want to give Allen what Mahomes has had since his 1st day in the league. If you ignore the negative connotation of the top image, you'll see what I mean. 

 

 

 

Mahomes has been carried by the amazing parts around him, which allowed Mahomes to max out his skills and make the great plays only when he needed to. Allen on the other hand, has had to drag the team around him to glory. You saw this at it's peak during the Daboll years where Daboll once ran Allen on a designed QB run during the Bucs, two plays after Allen injured himself. They were running him into the ground.

 

McDermott and Beane (correctly) made this realization and wanted a new OC who would bring this mentality to the offense. This is where Dorsey came in, and was given the assignment from the bosses, to create an offense that does not live and die with Allen's legs and heroics. 

 

This was actually the right move. The problem was, as you noted in the OP and opened my eyes to, was Dorsey's extreme incompetence at play calling and preparation. The move was right, but the wrong man was given the job.

 

What we're seeing from Brady is the same concept as the image on the top that Dorsey attempted, but with solid (and growing) efficiency. This is why we are seeing the run game more, Kincaid more, and Diggs and Davis less. We're balancing out the offense the correct way, allowing Allen to use his legs, but not living and dying with his legs and arm like Daboll did. Dorsey unfortunately took some years off of Diggs prime, and may have ruined Davis mentally just as he was ready to breakout.

 

To answer your question succinctly, I think we want to build a team that can win with Allen as a game manager (like we saw against Dallas), while making the great plays when we need them (the way a true game manager like Purdy couldn't if the chips were on the table and a DE was in his face and his routes weren't ready).  

 

 

Thanks, an excellent, succinct, supported analysis here. I really like that you bring in Dabolll here too and the criticism of how he  ran the offense, relying way too much on Alen.  I think we all almost forget that they were once 7-6 two years ago, and that Daboll was not using their players effectively.  While the Bills had proven they could run the ball well, except for Allen, overall, the rest of the running game seemed to be more or less an afterthought too often.

 

I was there for the opener against Pittsburgh when their defense was teeing off on Allen.  We were screaming for the Bills to run the ball, but they didn't listen to us!  At halftime a guy I was with pointed out that Allen ran the ball 8 times (or something similar) and that the running backs ran the ball fewer times. 

 

I assume McDermott was at least partly responsible, if not insisting, that that change. 

 

The Bills then went to Singletary as their bell cow and the running game became integral---and they ran the table that year. They became the best running team in the NFL during that stretch.  It was that change that then allowed Allen and the offense to be superb in the playoffs, unstoppable against the pats and Chiefs.

 

 I assume  Dorsey would have liked to have a more diverse offense! But I honestly believe he did not know how to do many of the essential things an NFL coordinator could do.

 

I think what I say on page two over a month ago , beginning with "After one game the Bills offense now have an identity developing...",  is a good representation of what you are saying here. They are the result of these things you speak of.  It is what I wanted the Bills to be from the beginning of the year three years ago.  Because when they have those qualities they symbolize Buffalo and this area so well--and also show that they can win it all, can beat anyone, anywhere.  Now, they will keep progressing this year and into the playoffs...

 

This is the Bills, what they should have been all along.

 

I love that picture, the difference so clearly shown between a 'boss' and a 'leader' and will use it in the future.

 

 

[Mister Defense]

9 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Dorsey could call plays, Brady can call games it seems. It’s the difference between being capable of writing and being an author. Both can play in the same sand box but only the latter will build a castle. 
 

Daboll’s offense was the basis to Dorsey’s offense to which he modified from there to include more 21 personnel and less Josh runs. The issue seemed to be that no matter how good one play could be in a vacuum; they all were individual plays. There was no setting up for later or meaningful misdirection. The offense had to play each play perfectly to achieve the intended goal. Brady is likely using much of the same plays but stringing them together into a story. The motion isn’t merely for show, it actually affects the play. That misdirection means even if the Bills have 1 of 11 slightly off the play, the misdirection will give the needed grace period to create the play anyway. 
 

The other thing Brady showed against Dallas, was a willingness to pound a weakness mercilessly and wait for the Cowboys to change. I’d safely assume had they started putting another LB out there and played to stop Cook that we would have pivoted to the pass. But since all they did was some minor window treatments, we just kept going with what worked. This being an issue even Daboll had.

 

Great take, and, yeah, that ability that Brady showed us on Sunday, to do keep doing what is working, and make the other team stop it, is a grrreat quality.  It shows that he does not have too much of an ego to just drop some of his plans to nail the other team to the wall.

 

After a great start against the Chiefs, running the ball soo well, I thought Dorsey had somehow gotten into the coach's box, had tied up the new coaches and had taken over the play calling again.  They had stopped doing what had made them so successful early in the game and prevented them from running away with that game, blowing them out.   BUT, Brady got on track, almost too late, yes, and they ran the ball like madmen on that late drive to win the game. 

 

Another great example, I think, of what Brady brings to the table.

 

So early in his tenure here, but such great signs that we now have a very high quality, dynamic offensive coordinator to take the Bills to the next level.  McDermott made a huge, catastrophic error in choosing Dorsey, and knows it,  so he must be smiling from ear to ear now whenever he thinks about Brady. May even have Brady's picture on his pillow case by now..

 

 

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

 

Thanks, an excellent, succinct, supported analysis here. I really like that you bring in Dabolll here too and the criticism of how he  ran the offense, relying way too much on Alen.  I think we all almost forget that they were once 7-6 two years ago, and that Daboll was not using their players effectively.  While the Bills had proven they could run the ball well, except for Allen, overall, the rest of the running game seemed to be more or less an afterthought too often.

 

I was there for the opener against Pittsburgh when their defense was teeing off on Allen.  We were screaming for the Bills to run the ball, but they didn't listen to us!  At halftime a guy I was with pointed out that Allen ran the ball 8 times (or something similar) and that the running backs ran the ball fewer times. 

 

I assume McDermott was at least partly responsible, if not insisting, that that change. 

 

The Bills then went to Singletary as their bell cow and the running game became integral---and they ran the table that year. They became the best running team in the NFL during that stretch.  It was that change that then allowed Allen and the offense to be superb in the playoffs, unstoppable against the pats and Chiefs.

 

 I assume  Dorsey would have liked to have a more diverse offense! But I honestly believe he did not know how to do many of the essential things an NFL coordinator could do.

 

I think what I say on page two over a month ago , beginning with "After one game the Bills offense now have an identity developing...",  is a good representation of what you are saying here. They are the result of these things you speak of.  It is what I wanted the Bills to be from the beginning of the year three years ago.  Because when they have those qualities they symbolize Buffalo and this area so well--and also show that they can win it all, can beat anyone, anywhere.  Now, they will keep progressing this year and into the playoffs...

 

This is the Bills, what they should have been all along.

 

I love that picture, the difference so clearly shown between a 'boss' and a 'leader' and will use it in the future.

 

 

 have to believe at this point you are just saying things to support your thesis but have no actual  basis in reality

 

Allen is running the ball significantly more under Brady than he did Dorsey this year

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Yeah I’m not writing that whole loss off on Dorsey.

 

The Bengals physically dominated the Bills and mentally intimidated the Bills in both meetings last year. 
 

Mixon could have ran for 200 yards if the Bengals wanted it that day. 

 

And I knew we were going to get rocked in that game as soon as Leslie Frazier said they were going to reuse the same gameplan from the Monday Nighter. 
 

Our Head Coach was running around saying you couldn’t really take anything out of the Monday Night game. 
 

The crowd knew it as well because they were non-existent from the first snap. 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[finn]

51 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

And since we were talking about how the Bills would have to go through the interview process to make Brady the OC, why didn't they have to do that with Dorsey after Daboll left? 

 

 

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

[Mister Defense]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

 have to believe at this point you are just saying things to support your thesis but have no actual  basis in reality

 

Allen is running the ball significantly more under Brady than he did Dorsey this year

 

Umm, I never said that we should not run Allen--but am, I thought, clearly making the point that the running game, the use of the running backs themselves, was a problem. That was true under Daboll, overall, and blatantly clear under Dorsey.  The running game with the running backs was too often just something to throw in there once in a while under Dorsey, just to maybe keep the boss happy-?

 

I love me some Josh Allen running!, but he was too often the only real running threat in the past.

 

Not now, and Brady is clearly committed to running and running, like he should be.  As he knows that is what will make Josh Allen--and the Bills--great.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Mister Defense

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Umm, I never said that we should not run Allen--but am, I thought, clearly making the point that the running game, the use of the running backs themselves, was a problem. That was true under Daboll, overall, and blatantly clear under Dorsey.  The running game with the running backs was too often just something to throw in there once in a while under Dorsey, just to maybe keep the boss happy-?

 

I love me some Josh Allen running!, but he was too often the only real running threat in the past.

 

Not now, and Brady is clearly committed to running and running, like he should be.  As he knows that is what will make Josh Allen--and the Bills--great.

 

Yeah the quality of athlete increased, that’s the difference.

 

Instead of taking 4.66 backs out of Florida Atlantic, 4.65 “business decisions” out of Utah, leaning on 35-year old Frank Gore, recycled guys like TJ Yeldon and Matt Breida - the Bills got a 4.41 talent with NFL pedigree out of a National Championship winning program.

 

We stunk at running the ball because the line was scabbed together and our running backs were slow. 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

So, these dramatic changes we have seen AD, the Bills almost overnight once again looking like a Super Bowl contender, quickly becoming one of the top 3 teams in the NFL, and, of course, the team building on these changes, week after week now, YOU believe that they were all coming anyway, naturally, with Dorsey too?

 

No, in answer to your opening question, I cannot believe almost anyone was thinking that! Or that almost anyone believes the change to Brady was not the catalyst for these dramatic changes in the Bills' performance.  I assume, as you don't back that statement up with anything, that it is just your intuition guiding you..

 

 

 

 

 

The dramatic change was Allen being encouraged(and schemed) to attack defense's with his full range of skills again.   Until they lost that Denver game they were still playing to keep Allen healthy for the stretch drive.

 

The very next game against the Jets Allen was running the ball again and taking hits, fighting for extra yards and getting dragged down awkwardly........but he's been extending drives and opening up the run game for the RB's in the process.

 

I like some of the non-Allen-running adjustments that Brady has made but they are subtle......NOT "dramatic".

 

You were probably one of the people complaining about running Cook out of shotgun under Dorsey, right?   "Everybody knows what's coming!" Well, now that they are having to account for Allen possibly pulling the ball and running.........those plays are starting to look a little more effective, aren't they?    

 

The passing game is still not looking good at all.   One of the underrated aspects of the Bills "bad" losses and/or poor offensive showings this season was that, aside from the familiarity matchup against Daboll, they came to defense's that have played well in general this season.   I had no problem changing Dorsey out but let's not pretend he could NOT change or adapt at all.   He drew up very unexpected gameplans against the Rams in the opener last season, in the Tampa game this year and he adjusted the offense to Allen's UCL injury last year to great effect.    He was a raw rookie in 2022 and replaceable either way but he wasn't single handedly handicapping the Bills offense.   That was a team effort.

 

Hopefully they find something in the passing game this week against a Chargers defense that is in shambles......like the way they did with the Cowboys terrible run defense without Hankins......but if they had lost that low scoring nail biter in KC the narrative about Brady isn't how good he's been.   Nope.   It's how Stefon Diggs disappeared under his watch and whether Brady even deserves a chance at returning since the Bills season would have been all but over at that point.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, finn said:

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

 

Possibly, but a big part of that is because McD doesn't know offense.

 

Either way, who's in charge, Allen or McD.  

 

It's a questionable look at best.  

 

They are enough general team and defensive SNAFUs to implicate McD in the grand scheme.  

 

As to Kincaid vs. LaPorta, there are too many variables to compare them outright fairly.  For example, Kinaid would probably be doing better on Detroit and visa versa re: LaPorta.  

 

The whole draft world had Kinaid as the better receiving TE.  

 

 

[JohnNord]

21 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

your analysis concluded that the Bills (Offense?) was the worst coached team in the NFL under Dorsey?  That conclusion clearly required NO thought process.

 

 

Bills under Dorsey were #2 in scoring and yards last year.  Sure, Cook had a once in a career (so far) game last week and Brady went with the hot hand. But you can't be serious about the worst coaching in the NFL.  why take such a bad look?  unforced error...

 

I wouldn’t necessarily say they were poorly coached.  I do think the play calling and overall scheme were lackluster, relied too much on Josh and Diggs, and did always play to the strengths of the talent.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by JohnNord

[GoBills808]

47 minutes ago, finn said:

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

McDermott hired Dorsey in 2019 after they spent 6 years together in Carolina

 

the idea that he was somehow Allen's guy is a rewrite

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Agree Dorsey was terrible. Diggs knew and our HC tried to paint Diggs as a malcontent.

But how do you explain no QB pressure against a Bengals OL missing multiple starters?  

It was a total team fail. 

[JohnNord]

29 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Possibly, but a big part of that is because McD doesn't know offense.

 

Either way, who's in charge, Allen or McD.  

 

It's a questionable look at best.  

 

They are enough general team and defensive SNAFUs to implicate McD in the grand scheme.  

 

As to Kincaid vs. LaPorta, there are too many variables to compare them outright fairly.  For example, Kinaid would probably be doing better on Detroit and visa versa re: LaPorta.  

 

The whole draft world had Kinaid as the better receiving TE.  

 

 

I’d agree with you on the LaPorta vs. Kincaid debate.  I think the Bills went with the TE with a higher ceiling.  
 

But the 2 TE offense is an interesting subject.  We don’t know whether it was Dorsey or Beane that initially pushed for that personnel.  It’s probably both, but I might argue Beane was the one who pushed it initially.  
 

I remember an interview he did with Pat McAfee after the Kincaid selection and he talked about how good the offense in Carolina was when they had Jeremy Shockey and Greg Olsen.   He tried this last season as well with the signing of OJ Howard.  
 

In fact, you can make the argument he tried this in 2021 by signing Jacob Hollister who was coming off two good seasons.  This is before Dorsey was OC.  
 

 

 

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

McDermott hired Dorsey in 2019 after they spent 6 years together in Carolina

 

the idea that he was somehow Allen's guy is a rewrite

No it really wasn’t.  After Daboll left every news outlet reported Allen pushed for Dorsey as OC as the became close in the QB room.   Obviously he had a past with McDermott and Beane which likely helped, but I believe the desire to keep continuity after Daboll, was the biggest reason Dorsey was hired.  

Edited December 21, 2023 by JohnNord

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, JohnNord said:

I’d agree with you on the LaPorta vs. Kincaid debate.  I think the Bills went with the TE with a higher ceiling.  
 

But the 2 TE offense is an interesting subject.  We don’t know whether it was Dorsey or Beane that initially pushed for that personnel.  It’s probably both, but I might argue Beane was the one who pushed it initially.  
 

I remember an interview he did with Pat McAfee after the Kincaid selection and he talked about how good the offense in Carolina was when they had Jeremy Shockey and Greg Olsen.   He tried this last season as well with the signing of OJ Howard.  
 

In fact, you can make the argument he tried this in 2021 by signing Jacob Hollister who was coming off two good seasons.  This is before Dorsey was OC.  
 

 

 

No it really wasn’t.  After Daboll left every news outlet reported Allen pushed for Dorsey as OC as the became close in the QB room.   Obviously he had a past with McDermott and Beane which likely helped, but I believe the desire to keep continuity after Daboll, was the biggest reason Dorsey was hired.  

tf is he supposed to say, no don't hire the guy who's already here as my QB coach because i demand we get someone from outside

[JohnNord]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

tf is he supposed to say, no don't hire the guy who's already here as my QB coach because i demand we get someone from outside

No but if you’re the franchise QB and you have concerns, you also aren’t going to sit on your arse and allow it to happen either.

 

This is a completely made up narrative.  If this was being reported in 2021, how could it be a “re-write?”

 

The truth mostly likely is that both the Bills and Josh Allen had confidence that Ken Dorsey could be a good OC.  And yes, Josh pushed for him too

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, finn said:

My understanding is that McDermott hired Dorsey largely because Allen pushed hard for him. That was a mistake. I wonder if McDermott was uneasy with his decision at the time. 

I also wonder if Beane drafted Kincaid instead of LaPorta because Allen pushed for him. Not saying it was the wrong choice necessarily, but it crossed my mind that McDermott and Beane may be bending over backwards to please Allen, possibly against their better judgment. 

That was my initial understanding to but the comments from McD during the pre- season and during the season made me think that McD wanted Dorsey and that Allen at most had veto power. This is a very different thing then Allen advocating for Dorsey.  My sense from McD's comments is that he wanted an OC who was on the same page as he was with respect to how to use Allen and how the offense might compliment his defense.

 

I believe that the clear change in Allen's playing style during this season when Dorsey was in charge, changes that were telegraphed by McD in interviews during the off season, was Dorsey trying to run the offense with McD/Bean demanding that Allen be exposed to less hits.  After Dorsey was let go and Allen had one of his signature runs against the Jets he jumps up and screams enthusiastically "I'm f#### back!".  It was clear to me that Allen was chaffing under the Dorsey/McD restrictions he was asked to operate under.

 

We all saw that Allen was joyless and seemed to have the weight of the world on his shoulders trying to execute the O according to the McD/Dorsey plan.  Then Dorsey is gone and McD has a come to Jesus moment and Allen is allowed to return to his old style of play and now he's smiling and acting like the Josh Allen of old.  The evidence of this is plain to see and overwhelming.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by CincyBillsFan

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

McDermott hired Dorsey in 2019 after they spent 6 years together in Carolina

 

the idea that he was somehow Allen's guy is a rewrite

 

Josh and Dors were close. But I agree this wasn't some case of Josh Allen picking the OC. They were grooming Dorsey for that job already, had made him passing game coordinator, McDermott likely considered Josh's comfort with him as a factor but he didn't hire Ken Dorsey because Josh wanted him. Responsibility for the hire belongs with the Head Coach.