Time to rewrite the Conventional Wisdom on the playoff loss to Bengals--and the new CW on Dorsey too

[BADOLBILZ]

42 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

I have no idea what any of this has to do with the OP. 
 

The entire fanbase quit after the Broncos game. The only person with hindsight issues is you. 

 

 

I guess you can't read then.    He literally highlighted his attempted points and I addressed them.........but his take was that the problem for the last year has been an incompetent OC.

 

Like I said..........it's not been the same team since then.   At mid-year last season Josh Allen sprained his elbow and they adapted the offense because he was struggling to throw the ball short and intermediate with touch.   The Bills proceeded to AVERAGE 30 points per game in the 9 games after the UCL injury and prior to the Cinci playoff loss.

 

The narrative that the Dorsey was killing them down the stretch culminating in the Cinci playoff loss is just asinine.   

 

Totally different situation this year,   very different roster and overall health.    They were a physically and emotionally hobbled unit at the end of last year and there were limitations in Allen's game due to health and Cinci was able to take advantage of the changes the Bills were forced to make.

 

This year the Bills started out with a gameplan of avoiding Allen getting hurt and compromising their offense later in the season.

 

I mean, how short of a memory do some of you have?  I mean it was only a month ago roughly that every pundit was complaining about how Allen was being used.  It was an organizational choice not just Dorsey being clueless.

 

As I've been saying for a couple years,  the WR position has been steadily degrading and you can't ask Allen to immitate Joe Burrow when he has no playmaking ability at WR beyond Diggs.   Combine that with opposing defense's being in default "stop big plays" mode this season and  it was a recipe for mediocrity.   

 

And those of you that think all those offensive problems from 2 months ago are fixed now clearly don't see all the passes falling incomplete.    They aren't a well-oiled machine now they have just opened up their options.   I like Joe Brady.   Agreed it was time for a change because the team was in a malaise and it was an easy replacement to make to give them a jolt and letting Brady take over when they were already going to have to take the reigns off of Allen was ideal timing for him to make a good first impression.   But Brady hasn't yet gotten this team running on all cylinders offensively either.   And he might not be able to because the receiving talent just isn't there.  

[pocoboy]

JA17's demeanor early in the season could very easily be chalked up to him feeling guilt, anger, desperation, etc. over vouching for Dorsey, only to have him be anywhere from incompetent to ineffective. Think of the burden he would carry for being a primary reason your team has appointed a dud, and double it down by having the type of Head Coach who doesn't want to drop the escape hatch on the guy without giving him a shot.

 

There's also this thing with Allen and his psychology that got a ton of play. Looking back on the @Miami game last year...could that have been some psychobabble that was preached to Dorsey to prevent any more on-camera meltdowns?

 

There are so many factors in the degrading of our play from the 2022 Bye Week all the way to Dorsey's firing, including Allen's elbow, the Hamlin incident, plus all the other adversity...but there's also a marked change in attitude on this team now. The CIN game where Hamlin had his cardiac event saw the team get utterly manhandled from the opening kickoff. Maybe we'll see them hit a really dogged foe and wilt in the coming weeks, but I feel like they are more willing to go toe to toe now than before.

[The Red King]

Why not both?  Specifically, why not both coordinators?  Our D Coordinator was a known commodity and had to go.  He didn't even alter the game plan that got them lit up on the opening drive against Cincy in the regular season.

 

On the other side, a lot of people weren't happy with Dorsey.  But the common thought was, it was his first season.  So he kinda got a pass, where Frazier did not.  Sadly, given more time, he did not improve, so he had to go too.

[Mister Defense]

3 hours ago, ToGoGo said:

Look at the date he wrote the post. A few days after Dorsey was fired. 
 

This guy made the best prediction I have ever seen a poster make on TBD. 

 

Thanks! I appreciate that! Looking forward to responding to some of the others here as well later when I have some time.

 

Been a Bills fan for decades, quit my second job in late teens, a week shy of my two year anniversary/vacation pay, just to watch a Bills game  as they wouldn't give me it off.  I showed them--that company never recovered (Wegmans).

 

But this Bills team, for multiple reasons, is the one I know best.

 

Curious as to what your take was on the stuff I said a little later this day and thread, on page 2, on what I defined as the vital elements of the new AD offense and defense, and so, what they would now become, and develop into, as a result now that they were on the right track. Do you think that those things are coming to fruition at a high level now? Do you agree that those are the vital things?  I tried to define the type of team that they were when hitting on all cylinders, what it looks like, a month ago. 

 

A great time to be a Bills fan; just wish all of the Bills fans were appreciating this, and not waiting until they win it all.  The journey is the destination.

 

(BadOlBillz is just joking, trolling, right? No one can post that stuff in a serious way, actually believe it. Right?  Ignorance at its worst if it is real, though.)

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Mister Defense

[ToGoGo]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Thanks! I appreciate that! Looking forward to responding to some of the others here as well later when I have some time.

 

Been a Bills fan for decades, quit my second job in late teens, a week shy of my two year anniversary/vacation pay, just to watch a Bills game  as they wouldn't give me it off.  I showed them--that company never recovered (Wegmans).

 

But this Bills team, for multiple reasons, is the one I know best.

 

Curious as to what your take was on the stuff I said a little later this day and thread, on page 2, on what I defined as the vital elements of the new AD offense and defense, and so, what they would now become, and develop into, as a result now that they were on the right track. Do you think that those things are coming to fruition at a high level now? Do you agree that those are the vital things?  I tried to define the type of team that they were when hitting on all cylinders, what it looks like, a month ago. 

 

A great time to be a Bills fan; just wish all of the Bills fans were appreciating this, and not waiting until they win it all.  The journey is the destination.

 

(BadOlBillz is just joking, trolling, right? No one can post that stuff in a serious way, actually believe it. Right?  Ignorance at its worst if it is real, though.)

 

 

My sense is that the "big picture concept" that Brady is doing is the same "concept" that Dorsey tried to do but in an exceptionally incompetent manner. 

 

What I mean by "big picture concept" is to transition our offense around Allen from one that Allen carries by himself to one that carries him and allows him to make great plays only when we need great plays from him.

 

Basically, we want to give Allen what Mahomes has had since his 1st day in the league. If you ignore the negative connotation of the top image, you'll see what I mean. 

 

 

 

Mahomes has been carried by the amazing parts around him, which allowed Mahomes to max out his skills and make the great plays only when he needed to. Allen on the other hand, has had to drag the team around him to glory. You saw this at it's peak during the Daboll years where Daboll once ran Allen on a designed QB run during the Bucs, two plays after Allen injured himself. They were running him into the ground.

 

McDermott and Beane (correctly) made this realization and wanted a new OC who would bring this mentality to the offense. This is where Dorsey came in, and was given the assignment from the bosses, to create an offense that does not live and die with Allen's legs and heroics. 

 

This was actually the right move. The problem was, as you noted in the OP and opened my eyes to, was Dorsey's extreme incompetence at play calling and preparation. The move was right, but the wrong man was given the job.

 

What we're seeing from Brady is the same concept as the image on the top that Dorsey attempted, but with solid (and growing) efficiency. This is why we are seeing the run game more, Kincaid more, and Diggs and Davis less. We're balancing out the offense the correct way, allowing Allen to use his legs, but not living and dying with his legs and arm like Daboll did. Dorsey unfortunately took some years off of Diggs prime, and may have ruined Davis mentally just as he was ready to breakout.

 

To answer your question succinctly, I think we want to build a team that can win with Allen as a game manager (like we saw against Dallas), while making the great plays when we need them (the way a true game manager like Purdy couldn't if the chips were on the table and a DE was in his face and his routes weren't ready).  

Edited December 20, 2023 by ToGoGo
minor correction

[Mikie2times]

On 11/19/2023 at 2:39 PM, Aussie Joe said:

Any comment on the D from that game ?

 

they looked like they played on roller skates and just were back pedaling 

 

They showed as much physicality as a 10 week old kitten 

The physicality of a 10 week old kitten hit the spot 😂

[thewookie1]

Dorsey could call plays, Brady can call games it seems. It’s the difference between being capable of writing and being an author. Both can play in the same sand box but only the latter will build a castle. 
 

Daboll’s offense was the basis to Dorsey’s offense to which he modified from there to include more 21 personnel and less Josh runs. The issue seemed to be that no matter how good one play could be in a vacuum; they all were individual plays. There was no setting up for later or meaningful misdirection. The offense had to play each play perfectly to achieve the intended goal. Brady is likely using much of the same plays but stringing them together into a story. The motion isn’t merely for show, it actually affects the play. That misdirection means even if the Bills have 1 of 11 slightly off the play, the misdirection will give the needed grace period to create the play anyway. 
 

The other thing Brady showed against Dallas, was a willingness to pound a weakness mercilessly and wait for the Cowboys to change. I’d safely assume had they started putting another LB out there and played to stop Cook that we would have pivoted to the pass. But since all they did was some minor window treatments, we just kept going with what worked. This being an issue even Daboll had.

[NickelCity]

2 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

The other thing Brady showed against Dallas, was a willingness to pound a weakness mercilessly and wait for the Cowboys to change. I’d safely assume had they started putting another LB out there and played to stop Cook that we would have pivoted to the pass. But since all they did was some minor window treatments, we just kept going with what worked. This being an issue even Daboll had.

 

🎯

[Scott7975]

Dorsey sucked. Dorsey is thankfully gone. Been banging that drum until it happened. Offense is better now. Hopefully it keeps getting better and hopefully they invest more in skill positions next season. 

[BigDingus]

I'm not buying that Dorsey was the main reason either, though I do agree he didn't help. 

 

Pre-firing, everyone was pointing out the long history of McDermott coaching blunders, saying he was running out of bodies to throw under the bus for his mistakes. 

 

Never had it been more clear than after the Broncos game, where 12 men on the field allowed the another FG attempt to steal the win. Dorsey's offense looked inept, but it was another game blown by the defensive side of the ball.

 

Even after the OC change, the Eagles game showed us that same issue again. 

 

Though we're riding high now, this team had similar issues even with Daboll as OC. Josh being 0-7 in OT isn't normal, or the equally bad record in 1 score games. 

 

And remember the posts in the gameday thread as the game started? People couldn't believe how easy the defense was getting carved up. The offense falling apart in the snow was nothing new, but it seeing a top ranked defense choke so bad was embarrassing. 

 

Now I do feel the inability to run hurt, but the Bengals had no issue passing all over the place. They looked great in the snow & on the road, Allen looked lost & we couldn't run to help. 

 

But that was a huge issue due to inferior OL imo. We have a lot of the same guys, but this is the first year they've all stayed on the field together nearly all year! The additions, their overall health, and the improved play (Spencer Brown especially), give us a much better chance.

 

Let's be real though, Allen wasn't very good either. He wasn't good in the Miami WC, and he was struggling for weeks before that. 

 

The Bengals game was a total failure from all levels. The HC, the OC, the OL, the defense, the injuries and yes, even the QB.

 

Hopefully this year will be different, but we still have to sustain this level of play & get into the playoffs in the first place. Take it one game at a time, and don't overlook ANY opponent.

[DrDawkinstein]

I dont agree with OP that Dorsey was the main reason for the whole-team collapse against Cincy.

 

I do believe Dorsey was absolutely the topic behind the Diggs/Allen spat, and exactly who Diggs was referring to when he was yelling at Josh to "Stop listening to HIM!"

 

Diggs knew Dorsey was ruining Josh by feeding him BS scheme rules like "If you see 1 high Safety, go long to Davis" which Cincy was baiting us into all game while Diggs was open underneath.

 

But the whole-team collapse was absolutely a culmination of all those things that happened starting with a mass shooting and brother dying, and only spiraling further from there.

[Mister Defense]

20 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I'm no fan of Dorsey, but this is an awful take.

 

Thank you very much; what an insightful addition to this conversation.   

 

You must have thought quite a bit about this response, as it demonstrates a certain degree of intelligence, specificity and insight that all posters probably appreciate.

 

Very thoughtful, knowledgeable--I would hate to be in actual debate with you!

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Thank you very much; what an insightful addition to this conversation.   

 

You must have thought quite a bit about this response, as it demonstrates a certain degree of intelligence, specificity and insight that all posters probably appreciate.

 

Very thoughtful, knowledgeable--I would hate to be in actual debate with you!

 

 

 

My man, if youre going to throw out a thread like this and then get personal with anyone who disagrees with you, I'd suggest finding a more productive hobby through the holidays.

 

What more insight do you want there? You said the Bills O under Dorsey was the worst coached offense in the NFL?!?!? That is a MAJOR absolute to throw down, and absolutes will always get criticized heavily. Rightfully so.

 

Watch the Panthers. Watch the Falcons. Watch the Raiders. Watch the Bears. Watch the Patriots. Watch the Cardinals.

 

Cmon man.

 

Although on second thought, starting pissing matches with both BADOL and WEO might be some quality entertainment during this slow week. Proceed.

[Mister Defense]

20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Your hindsight is 50/50.......congrats.

 

The team on the field now is not the same as the one at the end of last season..........the talent on offense is significantly better.......guys like Torrence/McGovern/Kincaid weren't with the team..........and the development of Spencer Brown and James Cook among others has been significant they weren't nearly the players they are now.    And they've been healthier.  

 

On defense they aren't just relying on Tim Settle and Ed Oliver to rotate as the 1 tech like they were in that Cinci game........Leonard Floyd and Rasul Douglas are big upgrades at key starting positions.........with the pass rush and LOS play improved the back 7 in general is more effective even though last years back 7 had Milano and Edmunds. 

 

There is no doubt they were emotionally sapped at the end of last season and they also didn't have the horse's to overcome it against a strong Cinci team(unfortunately even with the Bengals OL banged up) like they did versus Miami the week before.         

 

What?????? Yo clearly did not read my post--no way.  You would have seen that I was making that main point about that game to make my points about this year.

 

So the rest of our eyes were just deceiving us?

 

Those first half shut outs and such, the Bills teams scraping to get back in the game, over and over, having no answers on offense, could not move the ball, the chains, and, most of all, score, were only a mirage??

 

And the overnight--5 days later-- dramatic changes I thought I saw against the Jets, and then again and again since then, the improvements, the offense moving the ball very often with ease, the dramatic improvement of the running game, line play, and then the overall complimentary football, with the defense feeding off the offense and visa versa--all of that never really happened?

 

I am very confused!  Why do you not mention the things we all saw, except a few, obviously, early this season, and then AD?

[Mister Defense]

20 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Did anyone not expect the offense to improve later in the season whether they changed play callers or not?   

 

Dorsey began the season with a directive to not get Josh Allen beaten up.

 

They were playing "not to lose Josh" and just get thru these easy opponents offensively for the last month before Dorsey got canned.

 

And the reality is they do not have the talent at WR to just make their QB stay in the pocket with the way defense's are attacking big play offense's this season.

 

Dorsey's exit coincided with the team letting Josh be Josh.   The threat of Allen using every skill at his disposal opens up the run game.   The passing game is still out of sync and very punchless but now that every option is on the table they can look more like they have when they've played with desperation in the past.   

 

This season is not just an extension of last season.......so much has changed beyond just the offensive play caller.

 

 

So, these dramatic changes we have seen AD, the Bills almost overnight once again looking like a Super Bowl contender, quickly becoming one of the top 3 teams in the NFL, and, of course, the team building on these changes, week after week now, YOU believe that they were all coming anyway, naturally, with Dorsey too?

 

No, in answer to your opening question, I cannot believe almost anyone was thinking that! Or that almost anyone believes the change to Brady was not the catalyst for these dramatic changes in the Bills' performance.  I assume, as you don't back that statement up with anything, that it is just your intuition guiding you..

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

34 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

 

 

Never had it been more clear than after the Broncos game, where 12 men on the field allowed the another FG attempt to steal the win. Dorsey's offense looked inept, but it was another game blown by the defensive side of the ball.

 

 

Agreed. Let’s be real too. In that game the offense was not inept because of Dorsey. The players could not hang onto the ball. If they have one turnover instead of the four they had on the night the offense likely scores 30+ 

 

 

[Mister Defense]

19 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Yes I would think he gets another job as OC at some point

 

On this post in this thread, I completely agree with you.

 

I think if there is a (very poorly performing) high school football team out there, or middle school team, in desperate need, and they think a former NFL coach might help them out, then yes, Dorsey may once again become an OC.

 

Shoot, I will take the next step--he might even be anointed as their head coach.

 

[T master]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:16 PM, Utah John said:

Essentially Dorsey accomplished what no NFL defensive coordinator was able to do for the past four years:  he stopped the Bills offense.

 

But since it was clear that Dorsey wasn't getting the job done, it fell to the guy in charge, Sean McDermott, to step in and get things right.  And I think McD's repeated failures either to fix problems, or to own up for mistakes or problems, is what's eating out this team from the inside out.  Time and again, something goes wrong with the Bills, and McD NEVER takes the blame publicly.  This is exactly wrong.  

 

The players won't respect a man as a coach if they don't respect the coach as a man.  And when the players see McD continually blaming the coaches on his staff, or the players, each time it happens a little more respect bleeds away.  And now the Bills are bled dry.  All McD had to do to prevent this or to fix it, was to stand up after another botched play, and say, boy that was bad and it's on me.  Thirteen seconds, and 12 men, are now code words for McD's failures, and what happened is he fired the ST coordinator and the offensive coordinator.  

 

At this point I think it's too late even if he starts taking the blame for things, especially things we and the players all know were not his fault.  

 

If the Bills window closes, it'll be because McD is still the HC. He needs to be gone. 

 

I have never heard McD throw any one under the bus you must have a different news feed than most of us . McD has made mistakes but has from anything i've seen tried to fix the problem & if a coordinator is having problems getting a job done has given them more than enough rope to hang them selves .

 

I feel that's why Frazier was let go . McD saw other things that he could do & wouldn't in those times that they needed to be done due to his defensive back ground and although Frazier had a top 5 D every year he wasn't getting it done the way McD thought he should have so they parted ways .

 

Dorsey thinking to be taught by Dabol in some ways was the natural choice to take over but seeing the production going from Dabol to Dorcey & the decline McD like a good HC first fired Dorcey & then put in place someone they hired as a competent coach in Brady to take over & quite possibly be the better option moving forward .

 

All of y'all hate on McD and would rather take the chance of bringing in a HC that could very possibly do what Rex did & F up everything all the way around or have someone like Brandon Staley that looked really good as a coordinator but not as a HC to go backwards where the Bills came out of by hiring McD .

 

But i'll take my chances with a guy that although maybe a little slow on the uptake will make the proper corrections to keep our Bills a winner rather than falling into the Charger, Bears category ...

 

Oh while i'm at it who would be a good replacement if by chance the Pegs were ever foolish enough to get rid of McD & Beane which y'all are complaining so much about . If you could guarantee that your choice for HC could do as good or better than McD i might go for it but the NFL and the Bills have seen that movie play out before .

[GunnerBill]

Dorsey will get another shot and it wouldn't shock me if he is good if he ends up somewhere with weapons. His issue here was with a mediocre overall set of weapons and his scheme was just too vanilla and asked too much of execution from the guys he had. Just some minor tweaks in shifts, motion and route combos under Brady and the same offense has found more ways to move the ball. Which isn't to say it is all perfect. Some of the issues Dorsey was battling against remain. 

[dave mcbride]

16 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

So, these dramatic changes we have seen AD, the Bills almost overnight once again looking like a Super Bowl contender, quickly becoming one of the top 3 teams in the NFL, and, of course, the team building on these changes, week after week now, YOU believe that they were all coming anyway, naturally, with Dorsey too?

 

No, in answer to your opening question, I cannot believe almost anyone was thinking that! Or that almost anyone believes the change to Brady was not the catalyst for these dramatic changes in the Bills' performance.  I assume, as you don't back that statement up with anything, that it is just your intuition guiding you..

 

 

 

 

I look forward to how this debate is going to go. Good luck.