X’s and O’s Thread

[HoofHearted]

Just now getting to the Jets film. Watched the first half and there's some really cool things McDermott did with personnel and pressure packages. I'll post diagrams and more detail tomorrow at some point. Offense through the first half didn't look much different as far as scheme is concerned from what we've been doing. Only real difference was the window dressing with the motions. Used change of strength motions quite a bit to get favorable matchups - targeted the linebackers in particular which was really nice to see.

[HappyDays]

38 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Offense through the first half didn't look much different as far as scheme is concerned from what we've been doing. Only real difference was the window dressing with the motions. Used change of strength motions quite a bit to get favorable matchups - targeted the linebackers in particular which was really nice to see.

 

Cover1's latest video claims that Brady's sequencing of route progressions is more fluid than Dorsey's. As in when Josh goes from progression 1 to 2 to 3, the route he looks at next is flashing into his vision at the exact right time, whereas with Dorsey it was more all over the place which led to timing issues. Do you agree with this having watched the Jets film?

 

100% agree that motions made all the difference in this one. I think Josh is one of the best QBs in the league at properly identifying leverage in coverage players and choosing his throw accordingly. If he sees your hips turned even an inch in the wrong direction, you've already lost. I felt that motions in this game gave him clear leverage identifiers that he took full advantage of. Good example of what I mean on this play:

 

I may of course just be talking out of my ass here 😁

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Cover1's latest video claims that Brady's sequencing of route progressions is more fluid than Dorsey's. As in when Josh goes from progression 1 to 2 to 3, the route he looks at next is flashing into his vision at the exact right time, whereas with Dorsey it was more all over the place which led to timing issues. Do you agree with this having watched the Jets film?

 

100% agree that motions made all the difference in this one. I think Josh is one of the best QBs in the league at properly identifying leverage in coverage players and choosing his throw accordingly. If he sees your hips turned even an inch in the wrong direction, you've already lost. I felt that motions in this game gave him clear leverage identifiers that he took full advantage of. Good example of what I mean on this play:

 

I may of course just be talking out of my ass here 😁

 

I’ve only made it through the first half but so far every concept I saw we’ve run before so not sure what he’s referring to.

[Coach Tuesday]

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I’ve only made it through the first half but so far every concept I saw we’ve run before so not sure what he’s referring to.

You refer to the motion as “window dressing” but from what I could tell, they were actually using the information they got from the defense as a result of it, which seemed to be an issue under Dorsey.

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

You refer to the motion as “window dressing” but from what I could tell, they were actually using the information they got from the defense as a result of it, which seemed to be an issue under Dorsey.

That wasn’t meant to infer that it didn’t have purpose. We used CoS motions to great effect to get favorable matchups or pull backers out of the box. It also caused confusion multiple times as they didn’t know whether to bump their nickel into the box and bump the backers or whether to carry the nickel across and flip the backers (this is ultimately what they started doing). We used motions out of the backfield to identify coverages as well as to widen backers and open up pass lanes in the middle of the field.

 

My point was the concepts didn’t change from what Dorsey was running, we just dressed them up to make them more effective.

 

EDIT: And to be fair to Dorsey when he did use motions he did it intelligently and with purpose. He just didn’t do it often enough imo.

Edited November 22, 2023 by HoofHearted

[34-78-83]

From the stands, on the 81 Yd TD play to Shakir, it appeared to be quite an impressive "baiting" of the Jets defense by Allen. They moved Diggs into the slot and I feel like the Jets thought they had us with a gotcha! It wasn't Sauce in coverage across from Diggs and it sure seemed like they wanted to bait us into a throw over in that direction into their zone, where they'd likely have 2 guys near the throw with a chance to make a play. Instead, post snap, Josh takes an extended look in that direction, then looks at Kincaid quickly (who opened up the seam for Shakir) then right over to Shakir with the strike, and the gotcha! came in our favor. Great manipulation (I thought) by Josh on the play. I wonder also how much prep goes into a play like that between QB and OC or if its just where Josh is in his game right now. Thoughts, @HoofHearted ?

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

My point was the concepts didn’t change from what Dorsey was running, we just dressed them up to make them more effective.

 

Kurt Warner posted this video yesterday:

 

 

He has been saying that Dorsey was not the problem and didn't agree with him being fired. So in this video he tries to show how our offense against the Jets was exactly the same which to him is proof that Dorsey was not the problem.

 

But interestingly he kind of accidentally shows that Brady's offense is not the same. Same concepts but dressed up more, like you said. It's almost bizarre how Kurt Warner glosses over some of that stuff in this video. On one play he fails to point out that a Diggs motion against the Jets made Kincaid a lot more wide open than he was in a similar play against the Broncos. He compares a true mesh against the Broncos to a fake mesh against the Jets but to me those concepts created entirely different passing windows to Cook in the example plays he shows.

 

If you get a chance to watch this 10 minute video I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

[BADOLBILZ]

40 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Kurt Warner posted this video yesterday:

 

 

He has been saying that Dorsey was not the problem and didn't agree with him being fired. So in this video he tries to show how our offense against the Jets was exactly the same which to him is proof that Dorsey was not the problem.

 

But interestingly he kind of accidentally shows that Brady's offense is not the same. Same concepts but dressed up more, like you said. It's almost bizarre how Kurt Warner glosses over some of that stuff in this video. On one play he fails to point out that a Diggs motion against the Jets made Kincaid a lot more wide open than he was in a similar play against the Broncos. He compares a true mesh against the Broncos to a fake mesh against the Jets but to me those concepts created entirely different passing windows to Cook in the example plays he shows.

 

If you get a chance to watch this 10 minute video I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

 

 

Joe got some guys wide open a couple times.    But Dorsey had been getting guys "NFL open" regularly though.    And Warner was a guy who carved up "NFL open".   We forget just how bad the execution by the players has been the past couple months.   In this Jets game the fumbles got recovered,  and the "yikes" throws didn't get intercepted by Sauce and Reed on the Bills side of the field etc..  But the offense still had plenty of the same issues.    It was a couple thisclose plays away from being a standard 22 point Dorsey game in recent weeks.    So I tend to agree with Kurt here.   

[Allen2Moulds]

31 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Joe got some guys wide open a couple times.    But Dorsey had been getting guys "NFL open" regularly though.    And Warner was a guy who carved up "NFL open".   We forget just how bad the execution by the players has been the past couple months.   In this Jets game the fumbles got recovered,  and the "yikes" throws didn't get intercepted by Sauce and Reed on the Bills side of the field etc..  But the offense still had plenty of the same issues.    It was a couple thisclose plays away from being a standard 22 point Dorsey game in recent weeks.    So I tend to agree with Kurt here.   

Warner has always been very critical of Allen and his style of play. All the video shows to me, is look...these are still the same routes. However, Warner fails to address the little tweaks that Brady made, to create better passing windows. Everyone also appeared to be in better sync. Spacing and timing go hand and hand. With Dorsey that seemed to be a little off. Over simplification by Warner if you ask me.

[BADOLBILZ]

49 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said:

Warner has always been very critical of Allen and his style of play. All the video shows to me, is look...these are still the same routes. However, Warner fails to address the little tweaks that Brady made, to create better passing windows. Everyone also appeared to be in better sync. Spacing and timing go hand and hand. With Dorsey that seemed to be a little off. Over simplification by Warner if you ask me.

 

 

Perhaps but it's an over-reaction from Bills fans though if you ask me.    Decent game.   Some nice changes.   It's not like Dorsey never made any changes in 2 years though.   And he was running an offense that didn't punt the ball for like a month at one point last year.   He had to adjust his offense for Josh not being able to make short throws after his UCL injury.    He made the changes everyone applauded in the Tampa game.   He showed some identifiable flaws and looked green as a play caller at times but so did Joe Brady in Carolina.   

 

I sit about 10 rows down from the OC box.   After the game there were just a few of us left and one guy was yelling and gesturing thumbs up to Brady and wondering why he didn't respond back even though he clearly heard/saw him.    I told him the facts.........because he has been there and he knows he will be getting his turn over the open flames soon enough and he isn't going to acknowledge it then either.    That's the nature of the job.

 

Hopefully they build off this performance but I didn't come away from 3 quarters of having to settle for field goals against an opponent you know they've been itching for revenge against for months thinking that was a revelation of an offensive performance.    This team under McD just always runs into these mid-season ruts each year and this year's has been particularly damaging and threatened to turn the season into a waste.   The change was necessary for the frame of mind of the team more than anything else.

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Kurt Warner posted this video yesterday:

 

 

He has been saying that Dorsey was not the problem and didn't agree with him being fired. So in this video he tries to show how our offense against the Jets was exactly the same which to him is proof that Dorsey was not the problem.

 

But interestingly he kind of accidentally shows that Brady's offense is not the same. Same concepts but dressed up more, like you said. It's almost bizarre how Kurt Warner glosses over some of that stuff in this video. On one play he fails to point out that a Diggs motion against the Jets made Kincaid a lot more wide open than he was in a similar play against the Broncos. He compares a true mesh against the Broncos to a fake mesh against the Jets but to me those concepts created entirely different passing windows to Cook in the example plays he shows.

 

If you get a chance to watch this 10 minute video I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

I mean he’s not wrong. It’s the same scheme, but we knew it was going to be the same scheme. Dorsey wasn’t fired because of the scheme - he was fired because he was told to fix the execution issues and they never got fixed. If you can’t get players to respond to coaching then you lose your job - it is what it is.

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

https://buffalonews.com/sports/professional/nfl/bills/jim-kubiak-what-we-learned-and-liked-about-joe-bradys-debut-as-play-caller/article_5299cdda-8884-11ee-ab90-4fce29bde559.html

 

Conclusion

The story of this game was always going to be about Brady's debut. Statistically speaking, Dorsey had an excellent run this season.

Next to scoring, the most important area is turnovers. For some reason, Allen had been plagued with turnovers and this was crippling the high-octane and healthy Bills offense. 

In this game, Brady demonstrated a couple of differences between he and Dorsey:

• Brady didn’t use RPOs the way that Dorsey liked to. Instead, he married a pass to a quarterback run. I liked that adjustment because it makes things more clear and easier for the quarterback.

• Brady tried to get the ball to Diggs, but not at all costs, and when necessary Brady used Diggs more effectively as a decoy as seen in the fourth-and-1 touchdown pass, the touchdown pass to Cook in the flat, and the touchdown pass to Johnson inside the 5-yard line.

• The running game was more effective as the Bills rushed the ball 38-times out of 71 total plays for 130 yards against a talented Jets’ defense. This combination asked Allen to do less, as it should be. 

Allen’s first two touchdown passes were wide-open throws into the flat that were due to outstanding strategic planning. His third touchdown was the result of a vertical concept against a three-deep zone and a laser throw that only he can make. 

The Bills’ offense had turned the ball over 13 times in the previous six games. In those same six games, the Bills lost the turnover differential in five and tied once. This was the first game since the Dolphins’ victory in Week 4 that the Bills protected the football better than their opponent. Allen and the Bills have won every single game in which they have won the turnover differential. 

 

Just wondering what you think of Jim Kubiak thoughts?

 

Of course way more but behind a paywall. He talks about the marriage concept.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Buffalo Bills Fan

[Dukestreetking]

20 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I sit about 10 rows down from the OC box.   After the game there were just a few of us left and one guy was yelling and gesturing thumbs up to Brady and wondering why he didn't respond back even though he clearly heard/saw him.

Just quick aside Bado: some poster, I think on the PoGT, said he witnessed this exchange, and that Brady was smiling and gave acknowledgement. No idea, maybe different moments...

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

Brady didn’t use RPOs the way that Dorsey liked to. Instead, he married a pass to a quarterback run. I liked that adjustment because it makes things more clear and easier for the quarterback.

Not sure what he's referring to here, but I assume it was the QB Draw that was dead to rights that Josh tried to pull up on and look for a pass option. That's not an RPO, just Josh trying to make a play. We ran a couple RPOs and they were the same as what we've been doing. Like I've said - we ran the same concepts as we have all year - we just dressed them up to take advantage of some match-ups better than we have in the past.

[HoofHearted]

13:37 mark of the A22 film we line up in a Tite front and confused the Jets protection by doing so. They went half-slide to the field which gave Bernard a 1v1 against their RB in protection. The back wasn't disciplined enough in his rules "scan inside out" and immediately worked out to our walked up linebacker outside (Dodson) and Bernard was unblocked leading to the sack.

 

 

At the 22:22 mark we line up in the same Tite front but this time with 5 DL - the Jets set their half slide protection to the boundary this time anticipating the same blitz - but instead we run a Pirate game with Rousseau who ends up drawing the 1v1 with the RB as he scan protects across and allows Bernard to add in to the rush to get the sack.

 

 

At the 36:28 mark we show double A gap pressure to an empty set (we've seen this before). What caught my attention was our use of personnel. Instead of using backers to mug the A gaps we used our defensive ends and had our backers coming off the edge. This caught the eye of the Jets as they worked a full slide to the field in order to account for the double A gap pressure which made Wilson responsible for the free rusher. Poyer took a bad angle (didn't aim upfield shoulder of the QB) and he was able to escape by spinning out of the pressure, but it was a really intelligent use of personnel to ensure we got our best athlete unblocked on the rush.

 

 

There were some simulated pressures as well throughout the game where we forced the Jets to set protection one way only to drop those players out and bring overloaded pressures from the opposite side of the field. I really wanted to bring these specifically to light because McDermott gets a ton of flak for his pressure packages when he puts on a master class of dialing up pressures to attack protections and guarantee 1v1 match-ups with RBs (and more often than not getting 2v1 on a RB) in order to win in these scenarios.

[HoofHearted]

4 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

From the stands, on the 81 Yd TD play to Shakir, it appeared to be quite an impressive "baiting" of the Jets defense by Allen. They moved Diggs into the slot and I feel like the Jets thought they had us with a gotcha! It wasn't Sauce in coverage across from Diggs and it sure seemed like they wanted to bait us into a throw over in that direction into their zone, where they'd likely have 2 guys near the throw with a chance to make a play. Instead, post snap, Josh takes an extended look in that direction, then looks at Kincaid quickly (who opened up the seam for Shakir) then right over to Shakir with the strike, and the gotcha! came in our favor. Great manipulation (I thought) by Josh on the play. I wonder also how much prep goes into a play like that between QB and OC or if its just where Josh is in his game right now. Thoughts, @HoofHearted ?

Josh definitely wanted to go to Diggs initially (he had a 1v1 with a linebacker), recognized it was Hole coverage and knew that the backside double Posts would beat the Cover 3 look as Kincaid was running the collector route (inside post to occupy the Safety) and Shakir would have inside leverage on an in-breaking route vs the corner. Just good recognition and a great job going through his progressions - understanding the coverage and what we were doing offensively that would attack that coverage.

 

Also want to shout out Diggs and Davis on the earlier touchdowns. Neither of them had the sexy stat line, but they both did a lot of the dirty work. Diggs picked Mosley on the Cook touchdown in order to allow Cook to be wide open, and Davis sold the hell out of a crack block on the flat defender on the touchdown to Johnson completely eliminating him from the play and then hustled down field to shove and shield the corner who was covering him vertical so that he couldn't make a play on it either. HUGE play that will go completely unnoticed by the public.

[Coach Tuesday]

38 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Josh definitely wanted to go to Diggs initially (he had a 1v1 with a linebacker), recognized it was Hole coverage and knew that the backside double Posts would beat the Cover 3 look as Kincaid was running the collector route (inside post to occupy the Safety) and Shakir would have inside leverage on an in-breaking route vs the corner. Just good recognition and a great job going through his progressions - understanding the coverage and what we were doing offensively that would attack that coverage.

 

Also want to shout out Diggs and Davis on the earlier touchdowns. Neither of them had the sexy stat line, but they both did a lot of the dirty work. Diggs picked Mosley on the Cook touchdown in order to allow Cook to be wide open, and Davis sold the hell out of a crack block on the flat defender on the touchdown to Johnson completely eliminating him from the play and then hustled down field to shove and shield the corner who was covering him vertical so that he couldn't make a play on it either. HUGE play that will go completely unnoticed by the public.

Yeah Davis made Johnson’s TD happen almost single-handedly.  On the Cook TD, I thought Diggs easily could’ve been flagged.

[HappyDays]

58 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

but instead we run a Pirate game with Rousseau

 

I've seen you mention this term before. What is a Pirate game? A specific type of stunt?

[WideNine]

53 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Josh definitely wanted to go to Diggs initially (he had a 1v1 with a linebacker), recognized it was Hole coverage and knew that the backside double Posts would beat the Cover 3 look as Kincaid was running the collector route (inside post to occupy the Safety) and Shakir would have inside leverage on an in-breaking route vs the corner. Just good recognition and a great job going through his progressions - understanding the coverage and what we were doing offensively that would attack that coverage.

 

Also want to shout out Diggs and Davis on the earlier touchdowns. Neither of them had the sexy stat line, but they both did a lot of the dirty work. Diggs picked Mosley on the Cook touchdown in order to allow Cook to be wide open, and Davis sold the hell out of a crack block on the flat defender on the touchdown to Johnson completely eliminating him from the play and then hustled down field to shove and shield the corner who was covering him vertical so that he couldn't make a play on it either. HUGE play that will go completely unnoticed by the public.

 

Noticed them doing a lot of the dirty work too which (for me) softened the narratives that we should have gotten more production out of our #1 and #2 WRs.

 

Game within the game that shows a lot of unselfish heady play by our receiving core to do the things needed to open up plays for guys that don't normally show up as much on the reception stat sheets.

 

That is needed against a defense that has the kind of players and schemes that can do a good job taking away your primary receiving options.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Dukestreetking said:

Just quick aside Bado: some poster, I think on the PoGT, said he witnessed this exchange, and that Brady was smiling and gave acknowledgement. No idea, maybe different moments...

 

And a million people were at "The Comeback" game.