THE ROCKPILE REVIEW - On Scapegoats and Five and Five

[Cash]

7 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

This is simply not true, I've heard HC McDermott now going on 2 press conferences with him stating that "all phases need to get better and it starts with me". He even said "the defense hasn't been perfect but they played their asses off today". You can listen to both his press conferences and he says those lines about himself and about coaching the defense in both of them so I'm not sure where you're getting that he doesn't hold himself accountable, he clearly does. I'm not for or against him right now, I'm in a wait and see approach but you're spewing facts that just aren't true, go listen to both those interviews entirely and you'll hear him say those exact lines and I'm not calling you out or anything, maybe you didn't hear the full press conference but it's in there.

It’s weird that the two military veterans were both comparing McD’s “accountability” to military structures, when we’re really talking about public statements in press conferences. Maybe I’m way off, but I don’t think the top brass does much in the way of explaining F-ups to the public when they happen. I was under the impression that that sort of accountability was mostly handled away from the public eye. We fans ARE the public eye. 
 

I forgot to add my two cents about McDermott in my last post, so I’ll do it here. Number one thing for me: I don’t see how firing McD this week gets us into the playoffs this year. If/when we’re mathematically eliminated? Go for it. But as long as there’s a chance of us making a run, we need to maximize that chance. (With the caveat that if he’s lost the team a la Josh McDaniels and the Raiders, he has to go right away. None of us can know that from out here, though.)

 

I wasn’t a McDermott fan from the start, but he generally won me over. @Shaw66 made some great arguments around McD’s leadership and ability to establish a winning culture. And I saw for myself an ability to learn from his mistakes. That’s extremely important to me, because everyone will make mistakes whether you like it or not. As much as I HATED it when he benched Tyrod for Peterman, I ultimately gained some respect for McD in the aftermath. Why? Because he admitted he made a mistake and apologized to the team, and course-corrected afterwards. There are other examples, but this post is long enough already. 
 

With all that said, I think the blunder on Monday night hits the level of a fireable offense pretty much on its own. And to some extent, I think @GunnerBill is right that McD might have too much on his gameday plate. I wouldn’t mind it if he handed off defensive play calling to one of his assistants to let him be just a head coach during the game. 

[Bob Jones]

11 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Under Dorsey Josh has regressed.  It doesn't matter what the record is or what happened with 12 men on the field Monday night.  This franchise will live or die, win or lose based on how #17 plays.  

 

If Dorsey can't get the best out of Josh, even if it is primarily Josh's fault, and I'm not making that claim, then they need to get someone in there who can.  It's as simple as that. 

After watching A LOT of "experts" break down the film from Bills' games, every week, over the past couple months, I can say with certainty that it IS INDEED primarily Josh's fault. Anybody who denies the latter is either a homer with blinders on, or just lying to themselves. I've stated this here and there in this forum this year, and of course I've been downvoted into oblivion, but I'm right. An old saying comes to mind, "None are so blind as those who refuse to see."

[EasternOHBillsFan]

5 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

After watching A LOT of "experts" break down the film from Bills' games, every week, over the past couple months, I can say with certainty that it IS INDEED primarily Josh's fault. Anybody who denies the latter is either a homer with blinders on, or just lying to themselves. I've stated this here and there in this forum this year, and of course I've been downvoted into oblivion, but I'm right. An old saying comes to mind, "None are so blind as those who refuse to see."

 

The experts hammer these points home a LOT, so you are wrong.

-The Bills don't commit to the running game

-The Bills don't have an offensive identity

-The Bills don't consistently allow offensive flow

-The Bills have a problem with Gabe Davis continuously not getting any separation

 

Gabe Davis has been exposed and now many experts are wondering why the Bills didn't trade for a WR. It's a serious problem now because he was exposed on Monday night, and since McD will easily bench Cook but not Davis, alarm bells should be ringing.

 

STOP putting this primarily on Josh Allen and saying a majority of experts say so, it's really embarrassing.

[Bob Jones]

28 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

STOP putting this primarily on Josh Allen and saying a majority of experts say so, it's really embarrassing.

LMAO. Yes, very few experts/talking heads are going to come right out and blame JA, especially former players.

 

But if you read between the lines, both Kurt Warner and the Manning brothers did exactly that this week. There is such a thing as a players' fraternity, and it's even stronger for the fraternity of ex NFL QBs, but at some point, even some of them have the gonads to be honest. 

 

I think that Bills' "Mafia" who think JA17 can do no wrong are embarassing to intelligent Bills' fans. Other fanbases definitely see the latter. Take off your blinders for a little bit and look around. 😉

Edited November 16, 2023 by Bob Jones

[Bill from NYC]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I was with you to the end.   As I just said, he hired Daboll, so why is it that the Bills won't get another good coordinator?   Good for you, truly, that you knew Dorsey wasn't the right guy, but the fact that you were right about one OC and McDermott was wrong doesn't mean that McDermott can't hire and thrive with a good OC.  

McDermott needs to be shown the door. He fails at game management and he is even worse at team building, starting with his firsrt draft. You remember, right? The one in which he traded away the Mahomes pick to KC, was undercompensated, and then drafted a cornerback instead. Yeah, that one.

 

He sold Pegula a bill of goods with his co-opted term "process" and Pegula ate it up and gave him WAY too much power.. What are we now? A floundering team with talent, getting spanked by inferior teams. Ya think perhaps the head coach might be a little bit to blame? Please.

 

Btw, you seem to paint Bills Fans who are sick of McDermott's stale act as irrational. I disagree. Long time Bills fans are well able to spot disaster when we see it. Lord knows we have seen enough of it.

 

How you can defend McDermott is really beyond my comprehension but of course, the above is jmo.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Bill from NYC

[EasternOHBillsFan]

8 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

I think that Bills' "Mafia" who think JA17 can do no wrong are embarassing to intelligent Bills' fans. Other fanbases definitely see the latter. Take off your blinders for a little bit and look around. 😉

 

If you think that I am one of those who thinks Josh can't do any wrong then that's not true. A majority of us are of the belief that over time, Josh's abilities and mental state have been ruined because of poor coaching. He is a shell of himself and it could have all been rectified a long time ago had McDermott not gotten Josh the help that he needed. Only now after we are 5-5 after a terrible loss to the Broncos at home does he finally act, but it's too late!!! An offensive coach who knows how to use Josh must be found or we're going to utterly collapse.

[blitzboy54]

8 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

This is simply not true, I've heard HC McDermott now going on 2 press conferences with him stating that "all phases need to get better and it starts with me". He even said "the defense hasn't been perfect but they played their asses off today". You can listen to both his press conferences and he says those lines about himself and about coaching the defense in both of them so I'm not sure where you're getting that he doesn't hold himself accountable, he clearly does. I'm not for or against him right now, I'm in a wait and see approach but you're spewing facts that just aren't true, go listen to both those interviews entirely and you'll hear him say those exact lines and I'm not calling you out or anything, maybe you didn't hear the full press conference but it's in there.

Those I see as platitudes. He’s hiding under “we all have to get better” he says it starts with me but when HE specifically screws up he hides from it. Subtly blames everyone else and tells the media it’s not the time to talk about it. 

[Bob Jones]

6 minutes ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

If you think that I am one of those who thinks Josh can't do any wrong then that's not true. A majority of us are of the belief that over time, Josh's abilities and mental state have been ruined because of poor coaching. He is a shell of himself and it could have all been rectified a long time ago had McDermott not gotten Josh the help that he needed. Only now after we are 5-5 after a terrible loss to the Broncos at home does he finally act, but it's too late!!! An offensive coach who knows how to use Josh must be found or we're going to utterly collapse.

Coaches tell JA to throw into double or triple coverage? Coaches tell JA to ignore the underneath routes and throw deep downfield when it's 3rd and short? Coaches tell JA to get happy feet and abandon the pocket when there’s no need to? Coaches tell JA to make virtually every throw at full velocity? Coaches tell JA to make inaccurate throws to open receivers? OK, LOL. I'm done here.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Coaches tell JA to throw into double or triple coverage? Coaches tell JA to ignore the underneath routes and throw deep downfield when it's 3rd and short? Coaches tell JA to get happy feet and abandon the pocket when there’s no need to? Coaches tell JA to make virtually every throw at full velocity? Coaches tell JA to make inaccurate throws to open receivers? OK, LOL. I'm done here.

 

HE IS TRYING TO MAKE PLAYS UNDER POOR PLANNING, hence why Dorsey was let go. The offensive game plans and play calling WAS NOT WORKING!!! So was Josh supposed to just play like Tryrod, protect his stats, and meekly go down in a 13 point loss to the Broncos? Play like Bledsoe and take hits and just fall down and get sacked? Dude is a COMPETITOR and the coaching staff has failed him... to put the blame all on Josh Allen is ignorant.

[Shaw66]

23 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

McDermott needs to be shown the door. He fails at game management and he is even worse at team building, starting with his firsrt draft. You remember, right? The one in which he traded away the Mahomes pick to KC, was undercompensated, and then drafted a cornerback instead. Yeah, that one.

 

He sold Pegula a bill of goods with his co-opted term "process" and Pegula ate it up and gave him WAY too much power.. What are we now? A floundering team with talent, getting spanked by inferior teams. Ya think perhaps the head coach might be a little bit to blame? Please.

 

Btw, you seem to paint Bills Fans who are sick of McDermott's stale act as irrational. I disagree. Long time Bills fans are well able to spot disaster when we see it. Lord knows we have seen enough of it.

 

How you can defend McDermott is really beyond my comprehension but of course, the above is jmo.

And when I posted, I knew it was just my opinion, too.  I understand that people feel differently.  

 

The real point is that right now, in the middle of November and at 5-5, firing Dorsey was the right move.   The idea that he was a scapegoat is silly - Dorsey demonstrably was not succeeding at his job.   

 

I don't believe McDermott should be shown the door any time soon, but I know others think differently.  Whether one likes McDermott or not, firing him now makes no sense.   There's no one to take over the head coaching job now, because there's no OC and no DC.  

 

Why don't I believe McDermott should be replaced?  Well, as I said earlier, he has one of the best records of all active coaches in the league, and the chances are that whoever replaces him will be worse, not better.  Sure, we all can point to things he could have done differently, starting with Mahomes, but it makes no sense to point to those things and ignore the fact that he a took a team with a historic losing record for twenty years and turned into a perennial playoff team (except maybe this season).  I'm not prepared to unload quickly someone with that kind of record.  

[Gavin in Va Beach]

28 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

McDermott needs to be shown the door. He fails at game management and he is even worse at team building, starting with his firsrt draft. You remember, right? The one in which he traded away the Mahomes pick to KC, was undercompensated, and then drafted a cornerback instead. Yeah, that one.

 

He sold Pegula a bill of goods with his co-opted term "process" and Pegula ate it up and gave him WAY too much power.. What are we now? A floundering team with talent, getting spanked by inferior teams. Ya think perhaps the head coach might be a little bit to blame? Please.

 

Btw, you seem to paint Bills Fans who are sick of McDermott's stale act as irrational. I disagree. Long time Bills fans are well able to spot disaster when we see it. Lord knows we have seen enough of it.

 

How you can defend McDermott is really beyond my comprehension but of course, the above is jmo.

 

We've seen this story before in Wade Phillips. Great defensive coordinator, good guy, but mediocre head coach. I like McDermott, seems like a solid guy. I disagree that he sold Pegula a bill of goods, he definitely helped turned the Bills around with his emphasis on culture and process. We were a dumpster fire before he got here. Perhaps you're right that Pegula/Beane gave him too much power, but his main problem is he has failed to evolve and hasn't grown past his serious limitations has head coach, such as decision making and clock management. Pegula and Beane have hopefully told him he has the rest of the season to prove he should keep his job (at least for another year).

 

 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Oh I completely agree. Just because McDermott has been the cause of a lot of team's issues, doesn't mean Dorsey was just a scapegoat. He didn't have his side of the ball working as well as it should. I do think though that firing him is somewhat of an act of desperation by McDermott. He knows his job security is slipping away and he was very close to losing the locker room and the fanbase, if he hasn't already. A big change in the middle of the season is, if nothing else, an announcement that McDermott knows his operation hasn't been good enough and needed some kind of spark.

Oh, yes.  I agree that firing Dorsey is an admission by McDermott (and I'm sure he understands it) that his choice of OC was wrong.  I don't agree it was desperation.   It was the right move by an executive.   There was no upside keeping Dorsey, and there was clear downside.  There was no downside in firing him, and there is clear upside, if for no other reason than you get to try out Brady for the job. 

 

I don't know if McDermott is desperate, and I don't know how you'd know, either.  I mean, has Terry told McDermott he's out if he doesn't get to the AFC championship this year?   Has McDermott told his wife to expect to be moving our of Buffalo after the first of the year?   I don't think so, but I don't know. 

[Cash]

15 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Coaches tell JA to throw into double or triple coverage? Coaches tell JA to ignore the underneath routes and throw deep downfield when it's 3rd and short? Coaches tell JA to get happy feet and abandon the pocket when there’s no need to? Coaches tell JA to make virtually every throw at full velocity? Coaches tell JA to make inaccurate throws to open receivers? OK, LOL. I'm done here.

Whose job is it to work with Allen on correcting his mistakes? Whose job is it to give Allen feedback on what went wrong and how he can do better next time? Whose in charge of establishing the first read on a given play?

 

Yes, Allen needs to play better. It’s the job of the coaches to facilitate that. Since you know this stuff definitively, I’ll ask you: how was Dorsey working with Allen to correct those mistakes? Was Dorsey just yelling at Allen to do better, or was he giving actionable feedback in a way that clicked for Allen? Also, how did you manage to sneak into the room for all these meetings without being caught? 

[Shaw66]

9 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

So Shaw let's say for the sake of argument that Brady turns out amazing.  Sean gets this one right like Daboll.  How does that help us eliminate McD's bonehead game day mistakes.  Or maybe Brady will turn Josh back into a confident elite qb and the offense will start scoring 30 again?  That will at least mask the never ending mistakes Sean's bound to make in the future. 

You really can't see the answer to your own question.  If Dorsey had been that guy, and the Bills had been scoring 30 points a game, they'd have two losses, or fewer, this season, and no one except the most pig-headed Bills fans would be complaining about whatever boneheaded decisions you seem to think McDermott makes.  

 

After Monday night, I won't argue with the people who say McDermott isn't getting his team prepared properly.  The penalty at the end of the game is in the same category as 13 seconds and several others, where his team just wasn't prepared to execute.  I get that.  But, as I said, if the Bills had the kind of offense they should have with Allen, Diggs, Davis, Kincaid, and Cook, this morning they would be 8-2 or better and be a favorite to make the Super Bowl.  I'll take that all day, any day. 

[Bob Jones]

1 minute ago, Cash said:

Yes, Allen needs to play better. It’s the job of the coaches to facilitate that. Since you know this stuff definitively, I’ll ask you: how was Dorsey working with Allen to correct those mistakes? Was Dorsey just yelling at Allen to do better, or was he giving actionable feedback in a way that clicked for Allen? Also, how did you manage to sneak into the room for all these meetings without being caught? 

I am in agreement with you on the above. I have been wondering ALL YEAR LONG what is it, exactly, that this team does in practices and meetings, because their play on the field looks like they hardly practice at all. I was flabbergasted at their poor game vs the Bengals when they had TEN DAYS to prepare for it. Did they practice/have meetings for 9 out of those 10 days? Who knows? I suggested that the week prior to that game, ALL of the team should have been made to come in to OBD and sit and watch the Bengals vs 49ers game on Sunday afternoon. Finally, besides Dorsey, JA had a separate QB coach, no? Wasn’t that Joe Brady, our new OC? I would think that the QB coach would be the guy to "fix" Allen's problems, moreso than Dorsey....I mean what else is there for him to do?

[EasternOHBillsFan]

15 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

After Monday night, I won't argue with the people who say McDermott isn't getting his team prepared properly.  The penalty at the end of the game is in the same category as 13 seconds and several others, where his team just wasn't prepared to execute.  I get that.  But, as I said, if the Bills had the kind of offense they should have with Allen, Diggs, Davis, Kincaid, and Cook, this morning they would be 8-2 or better and be a favorite to make the Super Bowl.  I'll take that all day, any day. 

 

I don't want to do this, but I have to push back.

 

Yes, but an 8-2 record and going into the playoffs with the same head coach that makes inane decisions against teams in close games that's not going to win you a Super Bowl. We could be 16-1 and yet in a close game in the playoffs McDermott will still make questionable decisions that costs us a win in the playoffs and ends our season. You have to see that McDermott is not a championship head coach......

Edited November 16, 2023 by EasternOHBillsFan

[Bill from NYC]

26 minutes ago, Gavin in Va Beach said:

 

We've seen this story before in Wade Phillips. Great defensive coordinator, good guy, but mediocre head coach. I like McDermott, seems like a solid guy. I disagree that he sold Pegula a bill of goods, he definitely helped turned the Bills around with his emphasis on culture and process. We were a dumpster fire before he got here. Perhaps you're right that Pegula/Beane gave him too much power, but his main problem is he has failed to evolve and hasn't grown past his serious limitations has head coach, such as decision making and clock management. Pegula and Beane have hopefully told him he has the rest of the season to prove he should keep his job (at least for another year).

 

 

McDermott has far more say in the organization than Beane. FAR more. This is not all that unusual on football teams. Pat Kirwin was GM when Pete Carroll was coach and Kirwin calls Carroll his "boss." 

In fact, Beane was almost certainly hired on McDermott's say so.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

4 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

McDermott has far more say in the organization than Beane. FAR more. This is not all that unusual on football teams. Pat Kirwin was GM when Pete Carroll was coach and Kirwin calls Carroll his "boss." 

In fact, Beane was almost certainly hired on McDermott's say so.

 

That's a huge part of the problem and why we keep bringing in retreads. Beane keeps bringing in the talent but McD is making some really, REALLY head scrtching decisions, like Kaiir Elam and James Cook get treated like castoffs but Gabe Davis keeps getting chance after chance, and Kincaid being relegated for many weeks as Knox's play declined.

[hondo in seattle]

McD deserves ALL the blame for the Bills being a disappointing 5-5.  He's the head coach.  But I don't get the scapegoat thing.

 

Certainly, Dorsey doesn't deserve all the blame for the offense's struggles.  Outside of Josh and Diggs, Beane hasn't loaded the offense with a ton of talent.  The OL, in particular, has been far below Super Bowl standards since Beane came on board.  And some of the mistakes made by the players (that Beane acquired) are hard to pin on Dorsey.

 

But, be that as it may, Dorsey needed to go.  

 

I've watched X-and-O breakdowns by a variety of analysts (Kurt Warner, Dan Orolovsky, Eric Turner, JT O'Sullivan, etc.) and walked away unimpressed.  Folks far smarter than me clearly explain problems with our scheme and play-calling that Dorsey should be fixing.  

 

Rodgers says Allen needs to throw on schedule instead of ad-libbing all the time.  Dorsey should be fixing that too.  

 

Under Daboll, Allen improved.  Under Dorsey, Allen regressed.  

 

Here's a fun fact.  In the 13 games in 2016 when ALynn was the OC and Tyrod the QB, we averaged more points per game (27) than we're doing in 2023 with Dorsey as the OC and Josh as the QB.  That's shameful.  

 

At this point in his career, Dorsey is not a Super Bowl-quality OC.   And he's not the right guy to coach Allen up to his maximum greatness.  

 

Maybe, because of Josh's unique set of skills and shortcomings, we need a special QB-whisperer-type OC who knows how to keep Josh's head straight and make maximal use of his strengths while covering up his flaws.  We certainly need someone who will be tactically better at the Xs and Os.  

 

Dorsey had to go.

 

 

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, Cash said:

Whose job is it to work with Allen on correcting his mistakes? Whose job is it to give Allen feedback on what went wrong and how he can do better next time? Whose in charge of establishing the first read on a given play?

 

Yes, Allen needs to play better. It’s the job of the coaches to facilitate that. Since you know this stuff definitively, I’ll ask you: how was Dorsey working with Allen to correct those mistakes? Was Dorsey just yelling at Allen to do better, or was he giving actionable feedback in a way that clicked for Allen? Also, how did you manage to sneak into the room for all these meetings without being caught? 

Agreed.  And I'll give you a simple example that I didn't include in my essay yesterday, but that bothers me a lot. 

 

I said in the off-season that Allen and Dorsey had to be better.   I said in particular that Allen had to get his completion percentage up, because the real measure of good offense is percentage of positive plays.  Every incompletion is not a positive play. 

 

And so, in the beginning of the season, after the Jets, Allen's completion percentage was leading the league and he and the Bills were absolutely killing it on offense.  Why?  Because Allen was reading the defense and going to where the open man was supposed to be.  That often was to the back, over the middle or in the flat.  It was working great.  But in recent weeks, defenses have figure out how to limit the effectiveness of those short throws.  One play in particular was a two-yard completion over the middle to Murray Monday night.  Two yards, and the defender was right on him.  And the throws in the flat are getting them nothing, too.  Well, if the defenses have adjusted to that strategy, then there must be other areas of the field to attack.  If the linebackers are staying close to the LOS to stop the outlet passes, there are openings somewhere else.  Dorsey's job was to know where those openings are, to install plays that take advantage of those openings, and give Allen the reads to decide quickly where the ball should go.   

 

Instead, what did we get?  We got things like Allen throwing an interception on a deep out pattern to Davis, a play Allen and Davis had great success with two years ago, but a play defenses have long since shut down.  Allen should have known that throw was not open, and he should have had open options elsewhere, option he understood and could find.    And for the second week in a row, we saw Allen and Davis miscommunicate on a back-shoulder opportunity, with Davis stopping and Allen air-mailing it deep.   Things like that shouldn't be happening to an experience QB and an experienced receiver, and it was Dorsey's job to be sure they weren't happening.  

 

Everyone can see the same thing:  If you have a QB as talented as Josh Allen, you should be winning some Super Bowls.  And the way you should be winning Super Bowls is with a top-five offense.  That's how McVay won, and that's how Reid has won.  Daboll was giving the Bills an offense that was at least within shouting distance of the top five.  The Bills hoped Dorsey would continue and build on what Daboll started.  He didn't.  

 

Obviously, those who say Dorsey was the wrong hire from the beginning are correct.  It was a mistake.   There were those who said he should have been fired after a year, and they were correct, too.   We can discuss whether McDermott was late to pull the plug on Dorsey, but that's just a question of times.  GMs and HCs make mistakes all the time, and mistakes are not the reason to fire them.  Performance is the reason.  This season is the first season where the Bills have underperformed, and the underperformance is tied directly to the failure of the offense to be top 10 or better.