DORSEY FIRED, Joe Brady Interim OC

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, Peter said:

Gabe Davis speaks truths about Dorsey. Unfortunately, some here, on WGR, and McCoach have a narrative they want to push.

 

"We are behind Dorsey 100%"

 

 

Gabe is right that he himself is a big reason why Dorsey got fired.    And McDermott is right for pointing out the lack of good stewardship of the offense from Dorsey.   I mean you got a "captain" in Gabe Davis refusing to answer questions after a game where a turnover he created with that terrible drop was a big enough play to provide the difference on the scoreboard.    The players just weren't performing for Dorsey,  and there wasn't enough accountability from people like Gabe.   

 

It's convenient though that he chooses to address his drop in a rant at people for focusing the blame on Dorsey.   Unless you sit behind the Bills bench you haven't seen rabbit-ears Gabe going at it with fans after his drops.   He is a bit of a no-account f*ck and guys like that get coaches fired.

[Low Positive]

8 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Do you watch the rest of the NFL?    How many QB's don't get pressured in the pocket?   None.  The excuse that Allen's mechanics are poor because he doesn't trust the protection is at best a ridiculous excuse.    His pass pro is at worst league average this season.

I'm going to partially agree with you. I have no idea about QB mechanics, but I do think that defending Dorsey by finding flaws in Josh's game has become the cause celeb amongst the NFL's chattering class. But the stats tell us that the Bills OL is actually playing pretty well this year.

 

The advanced passing stats on PFR are a fun read for stats nerds like me. My eyes tell me that Joash is bailing on relatively clean pockets a lot this year. He is being blitzed a lot (98 times which is 7th most in the league).  Josh is ranked 24th in pressure percentage but he's scrambled the 4th most times. That's bailing on clean pockets. But Lamar and Mahomes have similar numbers. That's just who these guys are and teams should stop trying to turn them into pocket passers. The numbers tell you that Josh Allen is playing well, and he is. Nothing jumps out in the numbers but the TOs. There are lulls in games, but it's the costly TOs that are killing the Bills. Not all TOs are created equal and Josh has had two that have cost us games (that fumble in NY and the INT on the first pass in NE). If those two don't happen, we win those two games and the Bills are 7-3, in first place in the AFC East and contending for the one seed. I also think that if the Bills had been at 7-2 they don't lose that game to the Broncos. Sometimes seasons (and jobs) come down to a few plays. But what do I know?

 

The RPO numbers are interesting. They've run 48 RPOs this year and only handed the ball off 5 times for 28 yards. They are fooling no one. But then again, the only teams that have double-digit handoffs from RPOs are the Ravens and the Eagles. Well, Taysom Hill has 12 rushing attempts and 0 passing attempts out of RPOs, but he's not a QB. I'm beginning to think that RPOs don't really work as well in the NFL as they do in college and that you will start seeing fewer of them in the near future. 

 

And for the angry yellers, Josh has the 6th most PA pass attempts in the league at 65. 

 

You can go play with the numbers yourself here: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/passing_advanced.htm

[Peter]

31 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Do you watch the rest of the NFL?    How many QB's don't get pressured in the pocket?   None.  The excuse that Allen's mechanics are poor because he doesn't trust the protection is at best a ridiculous excuse.    His pass pro is at worst league average this season.

 

Do you watch football or have you ever played football?!?!

 

My point is that it has gotten into his head. If you cannot see that, we disagree.

 

 

[Low Positive]

Just now, 34-78-83 said:

thats what he was saying essentially

All of you on here yell "Nobody takes accountability!" and then when someone does you parse the statements to somehow make it a bad thing that these guys see that their substandard play got a guy with a family fired? Dorsey has a family and kids that he'll have to take out of school in the middle of the year. Ken Dorsey needed to go now, but there are personal costs to all of this, and these guys know and like the man. 

[Peter]

23 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Gabe is right that he himself is a big reason why Dorsey got fired.    And McDermott is right for pointing out the lack of good stewardship of the offense from Dorsey.   I mean you got a "captain" in Gabe Davis refusing to answer questions after a game where a turnover he created with that terrible drop was a big enough play to provide the difference on the scoreboard.    The players just weren't performing for Dorsey,  and there wasn't enough accountability from people like Gabe.   

 

It's convenient though that he chooses to address his drop in a rant at people for focusing the blame on Dorsey.   Unless you sit behind the Bills bench you haven't seen rabbit-ears Gabe going at it with fans after his drops.   He is a bit of a no-account f*ck and guys like that get coaches fired.

https://x.com/minakimes/status/1724466437190975685?s=20

[John from Riverside]

I haven’t really seen talk about that much, but is it possible that the last oc just had him thinking too much

 

I keep hearing these reports of all kinds of underneath wide receivers open and Josh missing them is he just overthinking it

 

The best, Josh is the one that doesn’t think much, and just let his natural instincts guide him

 

A interception or a completion can be a matter of less than a second

[Peter]

9 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

I'm going to partially agree with you. I have no idea about QB mechanics, but I do think that defending Dorsey by finding flaws in Josh's game has become the cause celeb amongst the NFL's chattering class. But the stats tell us that the Bills OL is actually playing pretty well this year.

 

The advanced passing stats on PFR are a fun read for stats nerds like me. My eyes tell me that Joash is bailing on relatively clean pockets a lot this year. He is being blitzed a lot (98 times which is 7th most in the league).  Josh is ranked 24th in pressure percentage but he's scrambled the 4th most times. That's bailing on clean pockets. But Lamar and Mahomes have similar numbers. That's just who these guys are and teams should stop trying to turn them into pocket passers. The numbers tell you that Josh Allen is playing well, and he is. Nothing jumps out in the numbers but the TOs. There are lulls in games, but it's the costly TOs that are killing the Bills. Not all TOs are created equal and Josh has had two that have cost us games (that fumble in NY and the INT on the first pass in NE). If those two don't happen, we win those two games and the Bills are 7-3, in first place in the AFC East and contending for the one seed. I also think that if the Bills had been at 7-2 they don't lose that game to the Broncos. Sometimes seasons (and jobs) come down to a few plays. But what do I know?

 

The RPO numbers are interesting. They've run 48 RPOs this year and only handed the ball off 5 times for 28 yards. They are fooling no one. But then again, the only teams that have double-digit handoffs from RPOs are the Ravens and the Eagles. Well, Taysom Hill has 12 rushing attempts and 0 passing attempts out of RPOs, but he's not a QB. I'm beginning to think that RPOs don't really work as well in the NFL as they do in college and that you will start seeing fewer of them in the near future. 

 

And for the angry yellers, Josh has the 6th most PA pass attempts in the league at 65. 

 

You can go play with the numbers yourself here: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/passing_advanced.htm

 

Who makes the decision in the moment whether to hand the ball off?

 

Rhetorical question.

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Peter

[Low Positive]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I haven’t really seen talk about that much, but is it possible that the last oc just had him thinking too much

 

I keep hearing these reports of all kinds of underneath wide receivers open and Josh missing them is he just overthinking it

 

The best, Josh is the one that doesn’t think much, and just let his natural instincts guide him

 

A interception or a completion can be a matter of less than a second

His natural instincts are to bail, scramble, and make plays. The Bills coaches have tried to change that, and there is a good argument to be made that this has cost us a season. 

[CincyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, Mango said:

Brady was on his podcast. Linked below. 
 

The Manning’s was from the Manningcast during the game. But there were comments like “if you have to throw it that hard it makes you wonder if you should throw it at all” and “they’re giving him everything underneath. Just march down the field. Does he know he is allowed to have a 10,11 play drive?”

The problem I have with comments like this from Manning is it doesn't reflect reality and is simply snarky.  Since I remember a lot of long Bills drives I wondered what the hell Manning was talking about. So I went back and just looked for any Bills drive that ended in points (FG or TD) that was 9 plays or longer.  I choose 9 as that is a pretty long drive IMO.  Here's what I found:

 

*  Long Bills drives have been evenly spread out over the season and Allen has had at least one in every game.

 

*  The total number of long drives is = 23.

 

*  The longest was for 17 plays.

 

*  The long drives have been:  9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12, 12, 13, 15, 15, 17

 

So is Manning being fair or does Allen know he can have long drives?

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by CincyBillsFan

[CincyBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

His natural instincts are to bail, scramble, and make plays. The Bills coaches have tried to change that, and there is a good argument to be made that this has cost us a season. 

The problem with McD, as I believe he is behind this with support from Bean (after all Bean needs Allen to stay healthy & productive for 10 - 12 more years for CAP reasons) is that because he doesn't understand offenses & QB's in the way that Reid or McDaniel does he assumed he could change Allen without losing a step.  The goal should have been to tweak Allen's style of play not change it.  This is what DaBoll was doing and Dorsey was not. But in defense of Dorsey he was likely simply following McD's orders here. If Brady isn't free to run this offense in the way he sees fit then he to will fail.

 

 

 

[Scott7975]

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Ideally, that would be perfect. Perfect it just looks like dink  dunk isn’t working for us.

 

I still say that it’s got to do with an injury to Josh Allen that he’s playing through trying to keep his team going it’s affecting his short game

 

3 hours ago, Radar said:

I've wondered about Josh and is he injured. We know how good he can be. You just don't lose that over two years in your prime. I do suspect it's more than play calling but I hope we can be more diverse in that department. Denver is a team I believe could have been run on more for instance.

 

It's a possibility. I dunno if it's real or not because they keep that stuff in house even if it is real, but it's possible.  Even if he isn't all that hurt, last year he had to learn to change how he threw the ball because of injury.  If thats healed then he probably needed to learn how to go back to throwing normal because of that.  He definitely hurt his shoulder this year and then aggravated it in another game too.  Whether that is still effecting him I don't know.  Josh would never say if it did.  He just says "we're good."

 

One thing I do know is that him throwing on the run used to be dimes.  It was his money throw.  He has been missing those throws all year.  There has to be a reason he is missing them.  Sometimes his downfield throws don't seem to have as much zip on them either. I dunno if he is consiously trying to take some heat off them or trying to maybe throw with a littl more arc and less velocity but some of them just don't look like the same Josh throws.  He didn't suddenly forget how to throw the football.  Either it's in his head or ...

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

Do you watch football or have you ever played football?!?!

 

My point is that it has gotten into his head. If you cannot see that, we disagree.

 

 

 

 

It's a violent game for violent people...........not being able to execute proper mechanics in the same situation as other QB's who do is NOT an excuse for it...........it's a justifiable reason to be critical of the preparation he's been putting in.

 

[John from Riverside]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

 

It's a possibility. I dunno if it's real or not because they keep that stuff in house even if it is real, but it's possible.  Even if he isn't all that hurt, last year he had to learn to change how he threw the ball because of injury.  If thats healed then he probably needed to learn how to go back to throwing normal because of that.  He definitely hurt his shoulder this year and then aggravated it in another game too.  Whether that is still effecting him I don't know.  Josh would never say if it did.  He just says "we're good."

 

One thing I do know is that him throwing on the run used to be dimes.  It was his money throw.  He has been missing those throws all year.  There has to be a reason he is missing them.  Sometimes his downfield throws don't seem to have as much zip on them either. I dunno if he is consiously trying to take some heat off them or trying to maybe throw with a littl more arc and less velocity but some of them just don't look like the same Josh throws.  He didn't suddenly forget how to throw the football.  Either it's in his head or ...

I think this shoulder designation that keeps him coming up on him. Every year is actually much more than that maybe surgery in the off-season.

[Low Positive]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The problem with McD, as I believe he is behind this with support from Bean (after all Bean needs Allen to stay healthy & productive for 10 - 12 more years for CAP reasons) is that because he doesn't understand offenses & QB's in the way that Reid or McDaniel does he assumed he could change Allen without losing a step.  The goal should have been to tweak Allen's style of play not change it.  This is what DaBoll was doing and Dorsey was not. But in defense of Dorsey he was likely simply following McD's orders here. If Brady isn't free to run this offense in the way he sees fit then he to will fail.

 

 

 

I agree with all of this, except for the concept that McDermott doesn't understand offense. His entire career has been built on stopping NFL offenses. He understands play calls and formations because he has to call plays to counter them. He knows better than anyone how Josh Allen's running stresses a defense. because he had to stop guys like Vick and RG3. But he also had a front-row seat for Cam Newton's decline.  

[John from Riverside]

24 minutes ago, Peter said:

 

Do you watch football or have you ever played football?!?!

 

My point is that it has gotten into his head. If you cannot see that, we disagree.

 

 

Oh boy, you’re really asking for that saying that to bado

[34-78-83]

23 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

All of you on here yell "Nobody takes accountability!" and then when someone does you parse the statements to somehow make it a bad thing that these guys see that their substandard play got a guy with a family fired? Dorsey has a family and kids that he'll have to take out of school in the middle of the year. Ken Dorsey needed to go now, but there are personal costs to all of this, and these guys know and like the man. 

ok???

 

I praised nothing. Just was correcting the poster who made an assumption

[Scott7975]

26 minutes ago, Peter said:

https://x.com/minakimes/status/1724466437190975685?s=20

 

Yeah, those numbers all look nice but I would bet over the last 6 weeks this team ranks near the bottom in scoring and protecting the football.  Advanced stats are nice, but scoring and protecting the football is what wins football games.

[Peter]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's a violent game for violent people...........not being able to execute proper mechanics in the same situation as other QB's who do is NOT an excuse for it...........it's a justifiable reason to be critical of the preparation he's been putting in.

 

 

The first part ignores my point. I am not making an excuse for him. I am making an observation as to why, as Kurt Warner demonstrated, he is not getting his feet set and his rushing throws etc.

 

The second part (preparation) could be part of the problem.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yeah, those numbers all look nice but I would bet over the last 6 weeks this team ranks near the bottom in scoring and protecting the football.  Advanced stats are nice, but scoring and protecting the football is what wins football games.

 

To push their narrative, the Dorsey haters ignored those numbers and have had it out for him since last year and ignored these full season numbers from last year:

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/season/2022/seasontype/2

[BADOLBILZ]

31 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

I'm going to partially agree with you. I have no idea about QB mechanics, but I do think that defending Dorsey by finding flaws in Josh's game has become the cause celeb amongst the NFL's chattering class. But the stats tell us that the Bills OL is actually playing pretty well this year.

 

The advanced passing stats on PFR are a fun read for stats nerds like me. My eyes tell me that Joash is bailing on relatively clean pockets a lot this year. He is being blitzed a lot (98 times which is 7th most in the league).  Josh is ranked 24th in pressure percentage but he's scrambled the 4th most times. That's bailing on clean pockets. But Lamar and Mahomes have similar numbers. That's just who these guys are and teams should stop trying to turn them into pocket passers. The numbers tell you that Josh Allen is playing well, and he is. Nothing jumps out in the numbers but the TOs. There are lulls in games, but it's the costly TOs that are killing the Bills. Not all TOs are created equal and Josh has had two that have cost us games (that fumble in NY and the INT on the first pass in NE). If those two don't happen, we win those two games and the Bills are 7-3, in first place in the AFC East and contending for the one seed. I also think that if the Bills had been at 7-2 they don't lose that game to the Broncos. Sometimes seasons (and jobs) come down to a few plays. But what do I know?

 

The RPO numbers are interesting. They've run 48 RPOs this year and only handed the ball off 5 times for 28 yards. They are fooling no one. But then again, the only teams that have double-digit handoffs from RPOs are the Ravens and the Eagles. Well, Taysom Hill has 12 rushing attempts and 0 passing attempts out of RPOs, but he's not a QB. I'm beginning to think that RPOs don't really work as well in the NFL as they do in college and that you will start seeing fewer of them in the near future. 

 

And for the angry yellers, Josh has the 6th most PA pass attempts in the league at 65. 

 

You can go play with the numbers yourself here: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/passing_advanced.htm

 

 

All I am saying is that Allen deserves his(significant) share of the blame.

 

I wasn't a fan of putting Allen into this Patriot's style offense in 2018.    I thought it was too complicated and limited his dynamic potential.   I wanted him under center, running play action and making a living on intermediate and deep throws to talented receivers.   Not trying to turn him into a dink and dunk option-route thrower who could survive with a bunch of JAG's at receiver opposite a great defense.

 

But when the cupboard was stacked at WR in 2020 and Allen still had a chip on his shoulder it was working.    And then you could dream on having the best of both worlds in time.   But 6 years in........Josh Allen SHOULD have grown in this offense to the point where he could do what was being asked to keep him healthy thru the regular season, at least.   Instead he's hit a plateau as the talent around him at WR has declined and doesn't appear to have put much effort into improving since 2021.   I blame the coaching staff......and maybe even more Brandon Beane.........for not identifying that he'd turned into Big Ben instead of TB12.  

 

But I also know it's fair to be critical of Allen's mechanics or basic inadequacies like not being able to execute any kind of screen game.    There are elements of the game where he is a flat-out HACK still.    That shouldn't be.  

[Peter]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

All I am saying is that Allen deserves his(significant) share of the blame.

 

I wasn't a fan of putting Allen into this Patriot's style offense in 2018.    I thought it was too complicated and limited his dynamic potential.   I wanted him under center, running play action and making a living on intermediate and deep throws to talented receivers.   Not trying to turn him into a dink and dunk option-route thrower who could survive with a bunch of JAG's at receiver opposite a great defense.

 

But when the cupboard was stacked at WR in 2020 and Allen still had a chip on his shoulder it was working.    And then you could dream on having the best of both worlds in time.   But 6 years in........Josh Allen SHOULD have grown in this offense to the point where he could do what was being asked to keep him healthy thru the regular season, at least.   Instead he's hit a plateau as the talent around him at WR has declined and doesn't appear to have put much effort into improving since 2021.   I blame the coaching staff......and maybe even more Brandon Beane.........for not identifying that he'd turned into Big Ben instead of TB12.  

 

But I also know it's fair to be critical of Allen's mechanics or basic inadequacies like not being able to execute any kind of screen game.    There are elements of the game where he is a flat-out HACK still.    That shouldn't be.  

 

I agree with your point that Josh deserves his share of the blame.  

 

I love the guy and he is perfect for Buffalo and the Bills, but he does deserve his share of the blame certainly.