DORSEY FIRED, Joe Brady Interim OC

[Seventeen]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I'm 7min into a video called "In Defense of Dorsey" and so far all I've seen is a poorly organized unit trying to run poorly designed plays.

 

Yes, Josh needs to play much better. But he's been getting no help.

 

That's the one - what I took away was Warner saying a few times he wasn't attacking Josh in favor of Dorsey ... but at multiple times, Warner calls Josh impatient or late and demonstrates how the plays are supposed to work. So it really was an attack on Josh IMO.

 

I don't know enough about play design to call them a "poorly organized unit running poorly organized plays".  

 

But aren't these the same plays we ran against Miami, Washington & Las Vegas ? 

 

 

[DuckyBoys]

ask yourself how many times this year you have seen a completion and there are several Bills receivers near each other?  I understand they want routes he can process quickly but stacking them virtually a few yards apart seems like asking for defenders to drop underneath and also makes tipped ints far more likely

[JMM]

46 minutes ago, Seventeen said:

 

Did you watch Warner's Studyball breakdown ? 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Map40XDVnxM

Nice watch, Kurt does a great job. And it confirms what we pretty much know, the problem with the O has been a combo of Dorsey and Josh. No doubt both have underperformed. For whatever reason it simply was not working with them together. You're not going to bench Allen, so of course the ax was going to fall on Dorsey. 

 

What's so disappointing about Josh is he seems to be regressing since the beginning of last year. And he went out of his way to say that this year he was going to be ultra focused just on football,  taking his game to the next level.  And to finally eliminate a lot of the turnovers. And this is the result of that?? He is impatient, making poor decisions, and simply has lost his energy and machismo.  He is a supreme physical talent. HOF type of physical talent. My fear is  that if he doesn't somehow work on the mental aspects of the game he won't be able to get us to the promised land. He would benefit so much from someone like Kurt or Peyton helping him.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Seventeen said:

 

That's the one - what I took away was Warner saying a few times he wasn't attacking Josh in favor of Dorsey ... but at multiple times, Warner calls Josh impatient or late and demonstrates how the plays are supposed to work. So it really was an attack on Josh IMO.

 

I don't know enough about play design to call them a "poorly organized unit running poorly organized plays".  

 

But aren't these the same plays we ran against Miami, Washington & Las Vegas ? 

 

 

 

I dont think it's an "attack" on Josh. It isnt unfair or unreasonable to say he needs to play better. I believe he said as much himself today. But he isnt the main problem. And even so, you can't fire Josh.

 

That said, while Warner is making his "defense" of Dorsey, he is also saying things the entire time like "Now, I dont like this play here", "It's tough to run this play against this defense", "Not a good concept, I agree", "Not great options on this play", so... yeah.

 

Yes, they are largely the same plays we ran against Miami, Washington, Vegas, Tampa, etc. That's the problem. Everyone knows what is coming now. Almost every clip Warner showed was extremely well covered. Because they knew exactly what was coming. Just like I did in my previous post.

[Scott7975]

Im not sure if this one was posted or not yet but I am listening/watching it now.  It's a good listen IMO.  I will watch the Warner one next.

 

 

 

One thing is said in here is something I said even when Daboll was here that I didn't like about him.  They don't build off the plays.  They don't run the football and build off of it.  They run the football just to run the football.  It isn't setting up a pass.  He also said something else I have been saying... you aren't going to march 80 yards on the Jets consistently taking 3-5 yards at a time.  Can't really do that against any team.  The explosive plays have to be mixed in there.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Scott7975

[Seventeen]

10 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont think it's an "attack" on Josh. It isnt unfair or unreasonable to say he needs to play better. I believe he said as much himself today. But he isnt the main problem. And even so, you can't fire Josh.

 

That said, while Warner is making his "defense" of Dorsey, he is also saying things the entire time like "Now, I dont like this play here", "It's tough to run this play against this defense", "Not a good concept, I agree", "Not great options on this play", so... yeah.

 

Yes, they are largely the same plays we ran against Miami, Washington, Vegas, Tampa, etc. That's the problem. Everyone knows what is coming now. Almost every clip Warner showed was extremely well covered. Because they knew exactly what was coming. Just like I did in my previous post.

 

Maybe attack was the wrong word ... 

 

In defense of Josh, Orlovsky tweeted today that only 3 of his 11 picks were his fault. I didn't see if the 3 were identified.

 

If everyone knows what's coming now, either the playbook is not deep enough or Dorsey was calling routine repetitive plays that are easily read and defended. If the latter is the case, why not just go to Dorsey and tell him to mix it up so everything is not telegraphed. Obviously there are more factors than that, i.e. quality of defense, injuries, etc but the simple answer is to mix it up. If Josh is now throwing into tight windows, why are those windows so tight ? Surely this could've been discovered on film study a few weeks ago. 

 

ETA - Dorsey would have had Daboll's playbook to work with starting last year so I find it hard to believe he scrapped it and started over.

    

Edited November 16, 2023 by Seventeen

[DrDawkinstein]

3 minutes ago, Seventeen said:

 

Maybe attack was the wrong word ... 

 

If everyone knows what's coming now, either the playbook is not deep enough or Dorsey was calling routine repetitive plays that are easily read and defended. If the latter is the case, why not just go to Dorsey and tell him to mix it up so everything is not telegraphed. Obviously there are more factors than that, i.e. quality of defense, injuries, etc but the simple answer is to mix it up. If Josh is now throwing into tight windows, why are those windows so tight ? Surely this could've been discovered on film study a few weeks ago. 

 

This is what these guys do for a living. Pretty much 24/7 for coaches. So you have to imagine those things have been seen, those discussions have been had, most of those things have already been tried. And either way, the Offense continues to decline. And so goes morale.

 

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by DrDawkinstein

[bouds]

42 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Kurt Warner just put out another All-22 on Dorsey’s offense.

 

Interested in other opinions on this, but the main theme, like a lot of others I’ve seen this season is: Dorsey has checkdowns built into every play, there is always a flat or a hot, and if Allen was patient he could take more of those, let plays develop.

 

But I don’t know how anyone could argue that there isn’t a lot of playmaking out there for the Bills and the margins/throwing windows are small, the Bills WRs don’t uncover that well. 

Also, has Allen’s clock sped up because he doesn’t trust longer developing routes because his offensive line was bad in 2021-2022?
 

 

Watched it and understand what Warner is talking about.  The one thing however he brought up and it really wasn’t touched again is how Josh starting in shotgun may be hurting him because he’s set to throw while the wrs are still not out of their breaks, and that maybe being under center could help with that which he does mention once.  
 

Also, if anyone else watched this, did you feel like our wrs are not spaced out correctly, the field seems so crowded with some of these reads, feels like everyone is so close together and maybe that’s causing issues for Josh. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by bouds

[Buffalo Boy]

3 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I'm not absolving Brady from all responsibility, but the job of an OC is far more than calling plays.  And even when he calls plays, he might have marching orders about the general trend wanted by the HC for the play-calling.

 

If you're an OC working for an offensive-minded HC is very different than being an OC for a defensive-minded HC.   We don't know how tightly supervised Brady was in Carolina or how much he was (or wasn't) executing Rhule's scheme and vision.  So I'm not going to damn the guy for his performance there.  

   I live in Charlotte and watched the whole fiasco up close and personal.

   Rhule isn’t an Xs and Os coach. He’s a conference man who get players to believe in themselves. It works in college, not so much in the NFL.

   Brady was running whatever he wanted to. It was Brady’s ( the wonder boy who would soon get his own HC shot) offensive scheme. The short story, not much of any kind of run scheme and when told to run, by Rhule, he would quickly go right back to passing O.

   Maybe he has grown but you can’t change an Offense halfway through the season. I have zero expectations of the Bills  suddenly becoming proficient.

[Behindenemylines]

37 minutes ago, Seventeen said:

 

Maybe attack was the wrong word ... 

 

In defense of Josh, Orlovsky tweeted today that only 3 of his 11 picks were his fault. I didn't see if the 3 were identified.

 

If everyone knows what's coming now, either the playbook is not deep enough or Dorsey was calling routine repetitive plays that are easily read and defended. If the latter is the case, why not just go to Dorsey and tell him to mix it up so everything is not telegraphed. Obviously there are more factors than that, i.e. quality of defense, injuries, etc but the simple answer is to mix it up. If Josh is now throwing into tight windows, why are those windows so tight ? Surely this could've been discovered on film study a few weeks ago. 

 

ETA - Dorsey would have had Daboll's playbook to work with starting last year so I find it hard to believe he scrapped it and started over.

    

From what I saw of Dorsey’s actions I would assume he scrapped much of Dabolls plays to prove how much smarter he was.  No evidence other than his behaviour and lack of adjustments in game. 

[Best Williams Available]

Whatever happens in the next several weeks on the O side of the ball is 95% up to Josh Allen. Either the firing of his buddy motivates him or it infuriates him and he goes rogue. There could be a middling middle ground I guess but doesn’t seem as likely.

[Richard Noggin]

44 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Im not sure if this one was posted or not yet but I am listening/watching it now.  It's a good listen IMO.  I will watch the Warner one next.

 

 

 

One thing is said in here is something I said even when Daboll was here that I didn't like about him.  They don't build off the plays.  They don't run the football and build off of it.  They run the football just to run the football.  It isn't setting up a pass.  He also said something else I have been saying... you aren't going to march 80 yards on the Jets consistently taking 3-5 yards at a time.  Can't really do that against any team.  The explosive plays have to be mixed in there.

 

They're not marrying the run and the pass, schematically AND sequentially.

 

Do they ever throw when Gabe Davis reduces down pre-snap inside the TE or OT?

 

I know they did have some success throwing on 1st down play-action earlier in the season (after so many ineffective 1st down runs), but has that disappeared?

 

It's about sequencing, getting the defense off-balance, and leveraging advantages where you find them. 

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, Behindenemylines said:

From what I saw of Dorsey’s actions I would assume he scrapped much of Dabolls plays to prove how much smarter he was.  No evidence other than his behaviour and lack of adjustments in game. 

 

I dont know. To me it almost looks like he simply wasnt smart/experienced enough to run most of Dabol's playbook, so he trimmed it down to what he did know and understand, and could kind of teach, and that left us with the "pop warner" scheme and play calling we've seen this year. Not sure he was trying to prove anything as much as he was just trying to keep his head above water.

 

 

[NewEra]

46 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

Im not sure if this one was posted or not yet but I am listening/watching it now.  It's a good listen IMO.  I will watch the Warner one next.

 

 

 

One thing is said in here is something I said even when Daboll was here that I didn't like about him.  They don't build off the plays.  They don't run the football and build off of it.  They run the football just to run the football.  It isn't setting up a pass.  He also said something else I have been saying... you aren't going to march 80 yards on the Jets consistently taking 3-5 yards at a time.  Can't really do that against any team.  The explosive plays have to be mixed in there.

I agree with the premise but the chiefs did last season…. All the way to a Lombardi 

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, LabattBlue said:

Why does the meeting have to take place immediately after the game?  

 

Doesn't Terry live in Florida now?  Game Day might be the only day in the week when he is with the team.   So it would make sense for them to meet right after a game so Terry can promptly fly back home.  

[hondo in seattle]

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont know. To me it almost looks like he simply wasnt smart/experienced enough to run most of Dabol's playbook, so he trimmed it down to what he did know and understand, and could kind of teach, and that left us with the "pop warner" scheme and play calling we've seen this year. Not sure he was trying to prove anything as much as he was just trying to keep his head above water.

 

 

 

Orlovsky said that we have strong tendencies to run certain plays out of certain formations.  No one in the NFL is dumb enough to have a playbook with a formation that is only used for one play.   But, apparently, Dorsey got into some bad habits and would often only call one or two of the plays that could be run from a certain formation.  That meant defenses often had a good idea of what we were doing.  

 

We've heard things, too, from defenders that Davis tends the run the same routes over and over.  And that if Josh has two guys in the same zone when facing zone defense, he'll throw to the deeper guy almost regardless of coverage.  And that the Bills only run a few different run plays.  Etc.  

 

As Orlovsky says, the Bills offense has been "wildly predictable."  

[Seventeen]

20 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont know. To me it almost looks like he simply wasnt smart/experienced enough to run most of Dabol's playbook, so he trimmed it down to what he did know and understand, and could kind of teach, and that left us with the "pop warner" scheme and play calling we've seen this year. Not sure he was trying to prove anything as much as he was just trying to keep his head above water.

 

 

 

I doubt he trimmed it down as McD & Josh for sure would've noticed. More likely to me is he doesn't use most of Daboll's playbook as either he doesn't understand when to use it or doesn't feel it stacks up against the defense of the week. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, JMM said:

Nice watch, Kurt does a great job. And it confirms what we pretty much know, the problem with the O has been a combo of Dorsey and Josh. No doubt both have underperformed. For whatever reason it simply was not working with them together. You're not going to bench Allen, so of course the ax was going to fall on Dorsey. 

 

What's so disappointing about Josh is he seems to be regressing since the beginning of last year. And he went out of his way to say that this year he was going to be ultra focused just on football,  taking his game to the next level.  And to finally eliminate a lot of the turnovers. And this is the result of that?? He is impatient, making poor decisions, and simply has lost his energy and machismo.  He is a supreme physical talent. HOF type of physical talent. My fear is  that if he doesn't somehow work on the mental aspects of the game he won't be able to get us to the promised land. He would benefit so much from someone like Kurt or Peyton helping him.

Warner by my count showed (12) plays.

 

Just by formation:

 

Play 1 - Shotgun

Motion? - No

 

Play 2 - Shotgun

Motion? - No

 

Play 3 - Shotgun

Motion? - No

 

Play 4 - Under Center 

Motion? - Yes

 

Play 5 - Shotgun

Motion? - No

 

Play 6 - Shotgun

Motion? - No

 

Play 7 - Shotgun

Motion? - No

 

Play 8 - Shotgun

Motion? - Yes

 

Play 9 - Under Center

Play Action

 

Play 10 - Under Center

Motion? - Yes

Play Action

 

Play 11 - Shotgun

Motion? - Yes

 

Play 12 - Shotgun

Motion? - No

 

7/12 in static Shotgun alignments.

 

No designed boots or rollouts. 
 

We’re doing everything we can to help a struggling offense? 

[Richard Noggin]

Is anyone talking about the new WR coach? (Who IS the new WR coach lol.)

 

Davis has ALWAYS had issues being consistently on the same page as Allen in this option-heavy concept passing attack. But I'd argue this known layer of complexity and variability (so much evidence of guys declaring this the most complicated and difficult to learn passing playbook...plus the much maligned inability or unwillingness to assimilate new guys more rapidly into the offense) is a major cause of the rest of the receivers in 2023 having issues, too: ending up in each other's space, not adjusting to coverages the way their QB expects them to, etc. And maybe this is a bigger issue in 2023 because the new WR position coach isn't having success teaching these demanding concepts to his guys? Just a thought. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, bouds said:

Watched it and understand what Warner is talking about.  The one thing however he brought up and it really wasn’t touched again is how Josh starting in shotgun may be hurting him because he’s set to throw while the wrs are still not out of their breaks, and that maybe being under center could help with that which he does mention once.  
 

Also, if anyone else watched this, did you feel like our wrs are not spaced out correctly, the field seems so crowded with some of these reads, feels like everyone is so close together and maybe that’s causing issues for Josh. 

I also think that a lot of these plays lead the QB to taking a checkdown, and many times to the sidelines.

 

On the play Warner said Allen should have taken his 1 on 1 shot deep, the WR has no separation at all, in fact the corner is running ahead of him. 
 

Ideally it looks like Tampa I guess? Ball out in 2.5 seconds, everything short?