Notes from the Cinci Game

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

It would be schematic shift from both the way Daboll and Dorsey have employed Davis to shorten his split to the OT (and then possibly have someone - probably Sherfield?) play the X. 

 

I've never seen much of our coordinators choosing to put Gabe anywhere but outside. Even in a 4 wide arrangement. 

The condensed sets have been around since Daboll took over. That's not out of the ordinary - the Curl/Arrow concept that they kept having success with is a common concept as well. It's nothing abnormal. They just haven't ever done it a ton like they did against the Bucs.

[Simon]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

We've seen way more man coverage this year than I can remember us seeing in the past and a lot of that has to do with our scheme.

 

I remember a couple years ago when running a bunch of man against this offense was pretty much akin to ordering yourself up a 40burger. I miss that.

I also miss tossing out a dozen trail technique jokes every time we played the Dolphins.

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

The condensed sets have been around since Daboll took over. That's not out of the ordinary - the Curl/Arrow concept that they kept having success with is a common concept as well. It's nothing abnormal. They just haven't ever done it a ton like they did against the Bucs.

I'm up for it.

 

I think the Bills have to try some things to shake some playmaking out of the offense. 

 

They have a lot of efficiency, but without the explosives, how can you squeeze more out of what you have? 

 

Great conversation man! 

[billsfan_34]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:27 PM, billsfan_34 said:

We stunk…all I got for this team right now.

Sorry “Coach” but we do. Hopefully things improve.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

Also Josh has to recognize it. He missed one this past game where he read the zone side against man coverage and our man beater backside (I believe it was Shakir on a slant under a rub route) was wide open.

 

What do you think causes this? I imagine that reading if it's man or zone is usually pretty simple, especially for Josh Allen who's been in the league for 6 years now. Did Lou Anarumo disguise that snap well? Did Allen just misread the coverage, or maybe had the play wrong in his head? Curious what your opinion is on this.

 

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

I remember a couple years ago when running a bunch of man against this offense was pretty much akin to ordering yourself up a 40burger. I miss that.

I also miss tossing out a dozen trail technique jokes every time we played the Dolphins.

 

 

 

Yeah the script has definitely flipped. When we had Diggs, Beasley, and Brown in their prime we were unstoppable against man. But Allen had trouble diagnosing zone defenses at that time, especially zone blitzes IIRC. Now he's figured out zone but we don't have the personnel or the schematic genius to beat man. Maybe someday we'll put it all together and finally see the best possible version of Josh Allen...

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by HappyDays

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

What do you think causes this? I imagine that reading if it's man or zone is usually pretty simple, especially for Josh Allen who's been in the league for 6 years now. Did Lou Anarumo disguise that snap well? Did Allen just misread the coverage, or maybe had the play wrong in his head? Curious what your opinion is on this.

 

 

Yeah the script has definitely flipped. When we had Diggs, Beasley, and Brown in their prime we were unstoppable against man. But Allen had trouble diagnosing zone defenses at that time, especially zone blitzes IIRC. Now he's figured out zone but we don't have the personnel or the schematic genius to beat man. Maybe someday we'll put it all together and finally see the best possible version of Josh Allen...

 

I've always thought that John Brown and Sanders were underrated cogs in those offenses.. different skillets obviously but both could reliably lift coverages and win downfield

[Bob Jones]

After thinking about this thread for a day, and stepping back and looking at the big picture, the OP is telling us (when he details all the “bad” things) that highly paid professional football players….the best of the best in the world at this game, where only a minute number of men ever even get to that level….are NOT DOING THEIR JOBS in an efficient manner. Why is that? If I repeatedly don’t do my job efficiently, I surely will get fired.

 

Yesterday I surmised that maybe some of the key players are old, slow, or dumb. Obviously age catches up with everyone, so that’s definitely part of it. As far as being “dumb”….do they not know what they are SUPPOSED TO DO out on the field? Is it a failure of coaching? Maybe on defense, due to changing schemes and unseen plays, the defenders really don’t know what to do (in real time), and even if they are “coached up”, they don’t recognize what’s happening in real time. But on offense, I would think every player knows exactly what he’s supposed to do, every play. 
 

So if they know what they’re supposed to do, but they aren’t doing it, the question remains…WHY? It ain’t rocket science out there. Some of the stuff…like offensive linemen not picking up all rushers when they have the advantage of 5 linemen vs 4 rushers is just mind boggling.

 

Note: Obviously, bad throws and/or bad receiver choice decisions by JA, or dropped balls by receivers are not applicable to what I’m saying above. 

[stevewin]

On 11/9/2023 at 2:03 PM, HoofHearted said:

All of the above at different times throughout the game. Here's what I mean:

 

Drive 1: Dorsey did a fantastic job with a Change of Strength shift then motion to scheme Diggs wide open in the flat for a big gainer

Drive 2: Dorsey motions across the formation and pulls the overhang into the box vs the split zone run concept we run and it gets shut down

Drive 2: Dawkins whiffs a block on a well designed pin and pull concept that would have gone for at least 10 had he maintained the down block

Drive 2: Dorsey schemes Diggs 1v1 on a backer using a short motion and Diggs runs an in-breaking route vs inside leverage instead of running the out-breaking route he should have (and Josh anticipated him running)

Drive 2: Vertical pass concepts are covered - Allen doesn't take the check-down which probably would have gotten us into a forth and short in "go for it" territory

Drive 3: Allen under throws a hole shot and gets intercepted

Drive 4: Morse whiffs a block on outside zone that would have been a solid gainer had he made it

Drive 5: Allen does a really good job with eye manipulation to uncover Kincaid on a decent gain

Drive 5: Allen takes the 1v1 option to Davis and isn't on the same page and throws the vertical instead of playing the field concepts which were also man beaters vs man coverage

Drive 6: Allen mis-reads an RPO that should have been a give and ends up dirting the ball because there wasn't anything there

Drive 6: Ran the same RPO off Dart action that we ran at the beginning of the game and it's executed perfectly again

Drive 6: Vertical pass game is covered and Allen doesn't take the checkdown

Drive 6: Torrence trips on a slip screen that would have otherwise been a big gainer

Drive 7: Man coverage and Allen looks to Diggs/Kincaid side instead of going to his man beater side - had Shakir open on a crack/slant

Drive 8: Stack receivers too tight to formation on the Dart RPO which pulls overhang defender into the box when Josh correctly gives the ball - Brown also whiffed his block.

Drive 8: Kincaid fumble

Drive 9: We finally used Tight Ends to block on the perimeter screen game!!!

 

It's a mixed bag of everything. There were some really good things from Dorsey from a scheme and play calling perspective - there were also some head scratchers. Josh did some really good things, but also did some boneheaded things. Overall execution at times was really good and others really bad.

@Hoofhearted - so, given what you see, where do you stand on the Fire/Kill/Shoot into the Sun opinions of Dorsey (and McD for that matter)

[34-78-83]

5 hours ago, Simon said:

 

I remember a couple years ago when running a bunch of man against this offense was pretty much akin to ordering yourself up a 40burger. I miss that.

I also miss tossing out a dozen trail technique jokes every time we played the Dolphins.

 

 

I think the reason nobody dared play man against us back then is because Josh would readily take off and end up with 50-100 yards rushing on those outings, gashing them for huge chunks. In my opinion, and for the rest of this season, that threat has to return enough (kinda like in the Tampa game) so that they have to once again respect it. Next year maybe we can replace that with a more versatile #2 WR (one that is better than the #2 Corner covering him)

Edited November 11, 2023 by 34-78-83

[EmotionallyUnstable]

36 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I think the reason nobody dared play man against us back then is because Josh would readily take off and end up with 50-100 yards rushing on those outings, gashing them for huge chunks. In my opinion, and for the rest of this season, that threat has to return enough (kinda like in the Tampa game) so that they have to once again respect it. Next year maybe we can replace that with a more versatile #2 WR (one that is better than the #2 Corner covering him)

Agreed 100%
 

Down and distance is a consideration, but if it’s there…take it.

 

Teams have changed how they rush Allen in these situations to limit that exposure but opportunities are still there. He is passing them up. This is a tricky situation, since keeping his eyes downfield and making a play on the move is something elite in his game that makes him so dangerous. 
 

Id personally like to see a lot more designed Allen run opportunities (RPOs or zone reads) to take advantage of the lighter boxes they’re seeing. 

[Scott7975]

56 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

I think the reason nobody dared play man against us back then is because Josh would readily take off and end up with 50-100 yards rushing on those outings, gashing them for huge chunks. In my opinion, and for the rest of this season, that threat has to return enough (kinda like in the Tampa game) so that they have to once again respect it. Next year maybe we can replace that with a more versatile #2 WR (one that is better than the #2 Corner covering him)

 

I agree.  I've said for most of the year that Josh not being a threat to take off and run hurts this offense because the defense won't change out of what they are playing without it.  They don't care about our checkdowns even if we took them and they don't care about our run game.  Josh running the football was huge and special.  It tore defenses up almost as much as the pass so they had to account for it. Now they don't and they know it.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Scott7975

[dave mcbride]

5 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I've always thought that John Brown and Sanders were underrated cogs in those offenses.. different skillets obviously but both could reliably lift coverages and win downfield

In the two or so years before Sanders joined the Bills, he was at or near the top of the league in gaining separation. I think he led the league in separation average for NO in 2020. The Bills tried to trade for him in 2019/2020 because he was such a perfect fit for Daboll’s scheme, but they didn’t get him until 2021. 

[HoofHearted]

5 hours ago, 34-78-83 said:

I think the reason nobody dared play man against us back then is because Josh would readily take off and end up with 50-100 yards rushing on those outings, gashing them for huge chunks. In my opinion, and for the rest of this season, that threat has to return enough (kinda like in the Tampa game) so that they have to once again respect it. Next year maybe we can replace that with a more versatile #2 WR (one that is better than the #2 Corner covering him)

That’s exactly right. My hope is they bring it back for the playoffs at least to some degree. It puts so much stress on a defense.

[Nihilarian]

@HoofHearted awesome stuff, thank you for the conversations!

[HoofHearted]

9 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

What do you think causes this? I imagine that reading if it's man or zone is usually pretty simple, especially for Josh Allen who's been in the league for 6 years now. Did Lou Anarumo disguise that snap well? Did Allen just misread the coverage, or maybe had the play wrong in his head? Curious what your opinion is on this.

 

It can be simple depends on if they’re disguising. I’d have to go back and look at what specifically the defense did in that situation, but I’d guess he liked the matchups Diggs and Kincaid pulled even though the concept was better to the other side vs the coverage. It was a third down situation so that’s why I lean towards that.

[HoofHearted]

6 hours ago, stevewin said:

@Hoofhearted - so, given what you see, where do you stand on the Fire/Kill/Shoot into the Sun opinions of Dorsey (and McD for that matter)

Schematically McDermott is one of the top defensive minds in the game. There’s clear intent to put our players in the best position based on their skill sets to make plays. He’s also done a phenomenal job of building a culture in our organization. I think that’s easy to gloss over because it can’t be quantified but it’s what separates good teams from great teams. What he’s done is special.

 

Dorsey does a lot of really good schematic stuff too. I think he gets to tunnel visioned at times with what he wants to do. I also think he could do a better job with his utilization of personnel, but when I turn on the film I don’t sit back and think “this guy doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing”.

 

Im also curious to see how they handle and work through this adversity. It’ll be very telling since this is really the first time since we started rolling that things haven’t gone our way for an extended period of time.

 

So long winded response to say I think if we got rid of McDermott it’d be a mistake and the jury is still out on Dorsey.

[34-78-83]

Bumping this thread so folks with all their wackado takes and theories from the ringer and the athletic, along with some dangerously false assumptions of those looking at all-22 can find and at least see some objective truth as to what’s actually going on when our team is struggling.

[1onemangang7]

How do you think Tahj Brooks would fit in the offense?  

[Freddie's Dead]

On 11/9/2023 at 1:41 PM, boyst said:

That flea flicker should have absolutely been schemed to the reverse man since they run man coverage so tight. 

The real problem with that play is that it wasn't set up by anything that came before it. You run the reverse action early to see if Cinci bites, maybe a couple times. THEN you drop the hammer. Daboll was a master at this, Dorsey?  Not so much.