Some All-22 Observations from Cinci

[Low Positive]

6 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Yes but I don't think there is the connection you are implying. Dorsey doesn't coach players. he draws up game plans. Obviously the Bills look like they aren't on the same page right now (see: Davis intl grounding call) But I can't say if that draws a line back to Dorsey.

Position coaches I would assume.

Maybe Chad Hall was the biggest loss?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

50 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

Indeed. Dorsey is unable to scheme for separation the way Reid does with any and all of his offensive players.

 

So much to the opposite, in fact, that on this play Dorsey schemed Kincaid and Diggs so close and crossed with each other that they tripped over each other and can be seen laying on the ground at the top of that pic.

 

Now, we all know Diggs and Kincaid can get separation on their own abilities 1:1 in the open field. But tough to do when your OC has you run right at each other from the LOS.

 

Look at this awesome play design and wonder how many WRs would get separation here:

 

 

 

 

Those problems span all parts of the offense, and makes it clear to me it isnt a player/talent issue.

 

 

I think the Chiefs are showing that talent matters. 

 

They're at 23.1 ppg with Mahomes telling Peter King that they will get the offense figured out. 

 

The Bills are at 20 ppg London onwards. They'd be right in there with one more TD per game. 

 

How can they extract one more TD per game out of what they have? 

Earlier in the year:

it was more under Center

more motion

more play action

more Allen running

[PromoTheRobot]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I honestly wasn't attempting to make a connection, but I can see how it appears that way. I am just as confused as everyone else as to why these same players (and in many cases upgrades - speaking of the line) have regressed since Daboll left.

 

I'm as confused as you are, especially since continuity was the buzzword when they promoted Dorsey. Other than Dorsey and maybe Cole Beasley, I can't think of anything major that would have changed on this offense. Were there some key position coaches that left that did more than we realized?

 

At the risk of sounding conspiratorial, I wonder if Josh's personal life is part of the reason? He breaks up with his childhood sweetheart, then hooks up with a Hollywood starlet on the rebound, He's on a ton of commercials now. Then there's that interview in the offseason where Josh admits to taking it easy. It made me raise an eyebrow. All this could be nothing. But I think we have transitioned from hungry-driven-disrespected Josh to everyone-kissing-his-ass Josh. Is he still as driven as he once was?

Edited November 8, 2023 by PromoTheRobot

[HoofHearted]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

2) More o-line issues. We are 9 games into the season and still having miscommunication between linemen. Torrence clearly thinks he has help from Morse.

He should have - they were in slide protection. Morse looks lost...

 

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

5) No defense is convinced by our WR's pretending to be a screen option on shotgun darts. And it's actively hurting us. Instead of our WR's blocking the CB across from them, they fake a screen and then THAT CB goes and plugs a run whole. Shakir's defender on this play is who makes the tackle, stopping the run for a 2 yard gain.

They're not pretending to be an option - they are an option. It's an RPO. We've gotten a lot of mileage out of this concept this year. What's concerning to me is why did we reduce the splits down? They're playing 3 over 2 so there's no play to be had on the pass - the give is the correct call - but we're doing ourselves no favors with the stack that tight to the formation.

[PromoTheRobot]

13 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

Maybe Chad Hall was the biggest loss?

 

May well be. What position coaches left that would have been key in teaching players what to do?

[Low Positive]

10 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

May well be. What position coaches left that would have been key in teaching players what to do?

On the offense, the only one that I can think of is Chad Hall. But Adam Henry, the guy the Bills hired, certainly has a strong resume. He seems to have worked a lot with OBJ, both in college and in the league. 

 

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/upload/v1693415686/bills/x0ogre2fw5biu5793mwx.pdf

[GoBills808]

19 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

He should have - they were in slide protection. Morse looks lost...

 

They're not pretending to be an option - they are an option. It's an RPO. We've gotten a lot of mileage out of this concept this year. What's concerning to me is why did we reduce the splits down? They're playing 3 over 2 so there's no play to be had on the pass - the give is the correct call - but we're doing ourselves no favors with the stack that tight to the formation.

Wanted to ask 

 

Is there a read presnap on defense where LBs can ignore playaction rules or can they just be so confident in their front winning they can stay home in coverage?

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

In years past, Allen hit this pass in roughly the red circle below. The safety just has no chance to get there. One move and Gabe might be gone. 



But if you want to see a tight window throw...

 

My goodness...


 

 

Yeah it's a hole shot that Allen hits a lot. The margin for error is low and the risk factor is high, but when you have a QB with the ability to make those throws you're going to call them from time to time.

 

As to why this one was underthrown, I would guess his mechanics off the pump fake were not right. He kind of rushed the throw after pump faking, perhaps because he realized too late CTB still had leverage towards Davis. In a perfect world he would have recognized at the last millisecond that the play wasn't going to be there and take the 3 yard completion to Diggs underneath.

 

But when you're relying on your QB to regularly make one of one throws just to keep your team in the game, you're always going to live on the edge and these sorts of mistakes are going to pop up. I believe the Chiefs and Mahomes are running into the same problem right now. If people are trying to hyper focus on plays like this as a primary reason for the offense's problems, that is the definition of missing the forest for the trees.

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Wanted to ask 

 

Is there a read presnap on defense where LBs can ignore playaction rules or can they just be so confident in their front winning they can stay home in coverage?

With the increase in the RPO game teams don't teach attack steps to LBs anymore. Instead they'll just bounce and trigger late vs the run.

[HappyDays]

55 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

What's concerning to me is why did we reduce the splits down? They're playing 3 over 2 so there's no play to be had on the pass - the give is the correct call - but we're doing ourselves no favors with the stack that tight to the formation.

 

Do you agree with some of the coaching/schematic concerns noted in this thread and others? Lack of cohesion to the route progressions, failure to layer concepts of top of each other, failure to scheme players open, predictable scheming etc. Or do you think it is still more player execution than anything? I just can't figure out how we'll go 5+ drives at a time looking like a completely hopeless offense, sandwiched in between unstoppable drives.

[Einstein]

4 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

They're not pretending to be an option - they are an option. It's an RPO

This doesn’t look like an RPO to me. If so, Allen did not give any indication of RPO and Diggs did not seem ready... at all… for a pass.

I also don't think i've seen a tackle pull on any RPO pass this year. Have you? I'll have to check my notes.

 

Came back to edit; Found an RPO with Spencer Brown pulling a couple weeks ago.

.

Edited November 8, 2023 by Einstein

[Low Positive]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Do you agree with some of the coaching/schematic concerns noted in this thread and others? Lack of cohesion to the route progressions, failure to layer concepts of top of each other, failure to scheme players open, predictable scheming etc. Or do you think it is still more player execution than anything? I just can't figure out how we'll go 5+ drives at a time looking like a completely hopeless offense, sandwiched in between unstoppable drives.

It happens to all teams and in most games. It happened to the Bengals in the game on Sunday night, but you weren't frustrated by it so it didn't seem as bad. Remember the drive after the Bills FG when the Bengals were driving and then suddenly couldn't complete a pass? The Bills punted the same number of times that the Bengals did (3). It was the turnovers that did the Bills in. KC couldn't score in the second half in Germany. The Eagles punted the ball all three times that they had it in the 4th after scoring at will earlier in the game.

[Dablitzkrieg]

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

This was a very frustrating game to analyze.

1) For those who wanted to keep running and establish "balance". It simply wasn't happening. They could have ran 50 times and we simply wouldn't have scored. Very frustrating run blocking performance for several linemen. Example of this (GIF may take a moment to load):



2) More o-line issues. We are 9 games into the season and still having miscommunication between linemen. Torrence clearly thinks he has help from Morse.



3) Why isn't Josh throwing the ball? Well... to whom? Separation is non-existent on many pays.



4) Torrence got tripped up on the screen play. Had he not been tripped, Cook may have scored on this screen. See the following two photos.





5) No defense is convinced by our WR's pretending to be a screen option on shotgun darts. And it's actively hurting us. Instead of our WR's blocking the CB across from them, they fake a screen and then THAT CB goes and plugs a run whole. Shakir's defender on this play is who makes the tackle, stopping the run for a 2 yard gain.








 

Diggs does an amazing job selling it.  At least his braids look good

[GoBills808]

I have another question for @HoofHearted

 

on the INT, is Davis supposed to read DB outside leverage and stem/stack w inside release vs that coverage? It almost looks like Allen expects that which is why he pumps it once before yoloing the hole shot

[Dillenger4]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

2 things stood out to me at first

 

Big one is just how much faster and physical Bengals dline played vs our oline and vice versa

 

Second was a result of that and one of the reasons we ended up ditching the run and the pass game got disjointed- we could not run block effectively vs that front and it affected MOF reads due to their LBs not being moved AT ALL when we went playaction

 

these are stills from deep throw to Harty when the score was still 14-7, right before INT.

 

at snap

 

after playaction from drop

 

 

LBs do not play run keys at all despite being in a 4man front w 6blockers in

 

 

Nice post. Would you play run facing the big, bad, tough Cook?!? He instills NO fear to any defense. Funny thing is when we were marching at the end of the game (our last 2 drives: Kincaid fumble, then TD) we used L. Murray at RB and he ran well. Hard runs, gained the yards we needed, setup shorter down-to-go. I hope we use Murray and maybe Fournette from here on out. Keep Cook for screens or dumps.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Seemingly all of our offensive linemen have taken a step back the past couple weeks. They were all playing quite well together, I'm not sure what happened.

 

Here's PFF offensive grades from this game:

 

 

3 of our bottom 4 graded starters were OL in this one.

 

Man am I sick of the same issues still holding this offense back. Poor pass protection. No run game. Zero production from our #2 outside WR.

All you can hope is the Coaches and FO don't get snowed by Gabe's work ethic and they draft their own WR who has some of the traits that work with Allen. 

 

Namely some speed and a set of hands. 

 

At the end of that game Sherfield was on the field and Gabe wasn't, my hope was that means Gabe got benched. So maybe there is some light at the end of the tunnel that he doesn't have to play all the time. 

[Utah John]

5 hours ago, Motorin' said:

Can you grab the INT and show if Kincaid was as wide open as one of the later replays seems to show?

 

I also saw Diggs wide open on short routes over the middle on 3 different 3rd and short or medium plays. And Josh never looked his way. 

Allen used to be able to see the entire field and rarely missed seeing open receivers.  Is he locking onto one guy now and ignoring the others?

[HoofHearted]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Do you agree with some of the coaching/schematic concerns noted in this thread and others? Lack of cohesion to the route progressions, failure to layer concepts of top of each other, failure to scheme players open, predictable scheming etc. Or do you think it is still more player execution than anything? I just can't figure out how we'll go 5+ drives at a time looking like a completely hopeless offense, sandwiched in between unstoppable drives.

Haven’t had a chance to spin through the A22 outside of finding a few snaps that I saw posted on here so I can’t really say for the Bengals game. I will say we do have quite a few concepts that aren’t full field reads (zone beater one side and man beater the other) so the notion that there’s not full field cohesion of routes is real but it’s intentional. May be able to spin through some stuff tomorrow and have a better answer for you.

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

This doesn’t look like an RPO to me. If so, Allen did not give any indication of RPO and Diggs did not seem ready... at all… for a pass.

I also don't think i've seen a tackle pull on any RPO pass this year. Have you? I'll have to check my notes.

 

Came back to edit; Found an RPO with Spencer Brown pulling a couple weeks ago.

.

The overhang (conflict defender who was the read) was the DB who folded in to make the tackle. He was so wide initially that the read was essentially predetermined as long as he stayed there. Yeah we’ve run a couple of RPO off of Dart this year both left and right with Dawkins or Brown pulling - can’t remember exactly which games they were in but I remember commenting on it on here when they did. Gabe got a really good gain on one of them at or close to the High RZ area on one of them.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Thanks @Einstein

 

Your point on the running game is maddening…. As @boyst suggested, we need to be able to run the ball vs those 2 high, six man boxes. Tough game up front for the hogs, so we need to be able to pivot. Any horizontal running game does not exist as well. Frustrating. 
 

I would have loved to see some old school zone read. You want to put pressure on those force defenders? Put Kincaid in motion in concert with the QB. 

[Comebackkid]

To me, I feel like what goes on during practice is leading to a lot of our durmise on game day.   

The players for the most part come out making mental mistakes every game, all through out the game.

routes dont make sense.   Josh not seeing open players.   I remember for a whlie he was bouncing on 

his toes and bam open guy got the ball and was gone.   

All game long against Cinci they were for the most part praising them and the players for basicaly 

playing smart and having a smart plan on the field.   everyone knew thier job and did it well..

yeah they did a few dumb questionable things but over all.

The Bills just looked lost as to what they should be doing at times.  

 

Take out the play calling and I still think coaching on the offensive side of the ball is horrid between games.