Cover 1 breakdown of the Dorsey offense

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

There were two receivers in his field of vision, Kincaid was there. Scanning left to right would have Diggs, Kincaid, and Cook (check down). Then the left side of the field had Shakir and Davis running another go route.

 

I think there is a good conversation around this, and maybe we need to do more. But if this is the most egregious example it isn't a great one. 

 

Somebody much smarter than me would have to be able to rattle off the stats and uniformity of NFL plays that run all its routes in the QB's field of vision.

I don't have those stats

 

but I can confidently say having reads in the same vision plane is something football offenses at all levels do w regularity because it simplifies progressions

 

I think some folks watch and believe the only way you can tell if a QB is getting to multiple reads is if he reloads his stance and turns his head but I would guess getting to those reads is much less common (because among other things you need great pass pro and progression wise they're down the order) than having two or more reads at different depths in the same field of vision

 

I mean not for nothing but the helmet is a little constricting 😂

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The one thing I have noticed just using the eye test is it seems like Allen is only using half the field most of the time. High low reads or low high reads to half the field. Very rookie QB stuff. This video supports that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have mentioned more than once about playing horizontal as Gailey did with Fitz, and the O line really..

think this is Dorsey's mind set as well. low High and vice versa. Have seen the same from him plenty of times.

Josh had made some progress with going through progressions checking out or down last year. Not sure why Bills have not progressed and are semi predictable, or seemingly so.

 

good observation !

4 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Separation is also based on scheming and route design.

Have you texted Ken about this concept ?

 

lol😇

[Old Coot]

On the reading process, specifically which side the QB reads first:

 

Picking a side is based on the alignment of the DBs, usually the safeties. The read of the safeties can be pre-snap or post-snap based on the movement of the safeties. That tells the QB which side he looks to first. If the receivers on that side are covered the QB looks to the other side.

 

It looks easy by as someone has said the QB has about 2.5 seconds to make his reads and throw the ball.

 

FWIW Josh immediately looks to one side. He doesn't attempt to look off the safety on that side so the safety knows which side the initial reads are on.

[3rdand12]

21 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't have those stats

 

but I can confidently say having reads in the same vision plane is something football offenses at all levels do w regularity because it simplifies progressions

 

I think some folks watch and believe the only way you can tell if a QB is getting to multiple reads is if he reloads his stance and turns his head but I would guess getting to those reads is much less common (because among other things you need great pass pro and progression wise they're down the order) than having two or more reads at different depths in the same field of vision

 

I mean not for nothing but the helmet is a little constricting 😂

But thats the basics . Easy two reads and knowing your pocket and where pressure is coming from

 

need to know in your head once the ball is snapped who is likely to be getting open or free. Long or short. and how many steps till that is going to happen

thats the advanced model

[Mango]

52 minutes ago, Mango said:

I am struggling to understand that the start of the video spent the first ~5:00 talking about the built in checks in cover 2, quarters, etc. only to end that portion with "We can see that the efficient plays are there. But Josh wants to throw the ball downfield.  Again there are multiple options all over the field. But that underthrown ball gets intercepted. This is the problem with the Ken Dorsey offense". 

 

The second play is an identical concept. 2 high shell. Off coverage. Kincaid runs a great route and reads the LB properly. Josh executes. Good play by Kincaid. Great play by the Bengals here. But the tag line is "There is nothing deep down field". I don't man, I have absolutely zero issue with running the same play against the same coverage all game long. If the Bengals don't want to adjust they don't have to. Keep running it until they decide to change up. At that point go over top. 

 

I appreciated the breakdown of the 3rd play, especially the comment about line of site. The one thing I would ask though is what is the additional expectation? Like the Bengals are playing 2 high for the millionth time giving us everything underneath. It sounds like the big criticism here was the Davis was running the go route on the opposite side of the field. But Kincaid is on that side of the field, and Cook is close. Should the entire play come back to the right side of the field? Also, how much of the decision is pre-snap v post snap when it comes to picking a side? 

I think there is a good conversation around this. I was interested in getting into the layers of when a play breaks down, but tough for me to move past that opening. It is cover 2, the right play is called, with the proper outlets. I don't see a major malfunction in the first three plays he showed. 

This gets me through the first half of the video. I have to jump on a call. Looking forward to getting into the second half. 

 

4th play. The right call and the right read against cover 2 gain. Diggs is covered, Kincaid  is open. Josh hits him on time. Great play in the situation. I am failing to see the criticism here. No talk about depth or field of view. Just sort of uses efficiency as a knock. 

 

5th play against Cover 2 again. Josh gets the snap inside the 10. Doesn't likes what he sees. Hits Cook quickly. Positive play for 4-ish yards. I don't see the criticism here. Isn't this what we should be doing if defenses are going to protect the big play at all costs? Take what the play they give us until they adjust to stop it. Then make the big play? Cover 1 says "But is the defense actually threatened? I don't know. Do we need to threaten a defense when we are that close to our own endzone, or do we need to move the offense up field a bit? 

 

6th play. This I think was a better example because the coverage shifts. I think we pull the trigger a little early on Diggs. By the eye test it feels like Kincaid may be the better option at that moment, although that window may have closed quickly. I think to say "are we scheming guys open" is an "it' term. Is there a difference between a coverage beater and "scheming a guy open"? Question, not pointing fingers. Dorsey thinks we will see cover 2 again on 3rd and 6 because we have seen it all game. We get to the line. Allen reads single high man. What are the checks and freedoms in the offense?  Is it just a "this is the play that's called" or do we audible. And I think this is where some things get murky from fan and amateur analysis, and we don't have anything definitive. None the less. Bad play call. 

 

7th play. Kincaid is open. Josh skips both him and Murray to look deep down the opposite sideline. C1 says he doesn't know the proper read, but says maybe he looks to the right because it is cover 1 not 2, and that is Davis deep. Hard time nailing Dorsey on this one when you look passed your open 2nd and 3rd reads to the opposite sideline because the QB might have gotten the pre snap read wrong. Pretty tough example for a video titled "Is Ken Dorsey's Offensive Scheme Holding Josh Allen Back". 

 

8th play is bad protection. I would be curious to see what this play looks like if given the opportunity to develop. But I don't have an issue with calling it a bad play either. 

 

9th play. C2 mentions that Dorsey makes the receivers do a lot of heavy lifting. Where do we draw the line between the WR running the option routes or finding the softs spots as part of the plan. I think Davis may have actually might have blow this one. He curls back way too late and runs 3 yards pass a soft spot in the zone. This play could have gone poorly. If not for Josh and Shakir this is likely a throw away. 

 

10th play - Good play from Josh. I can't believe those guys tripped over each other. 

 

11th play - I agree to an extent, what's the play? But it is also cover zero, with a spy on Josh. Davis was open with a facemask and a bad throw, and Shakir was open on the other side. But on the other hand, if there are two guys open what does "Players have to be frustrated at the lack of creativity" actually  mean? Guys are open. 

 

All in all I was hoping for a bit more depth and somethings that were a lot more egregious given the video's title. We aren't executing. Part is on the player. Part is on the coach. Happy to move on and get more/better weapons around the QB, but the plays in this video didn't get me worked up at all. 

[3rdand12]

1 minute ago, Old Coot said:

On the reading process, specifically which side the QB reads first:

 

Picking a side is based on the alignment of the DBs, usually the safeties. The read of the safeties can be pre-snap or post-snap based on the movement of the safeties. That tells the QB which side he looks to first. If the receivers on that side are covered the QB looks to the other side.

 

It looks easy by as someone has said the QB has about 2.5 seconds to make his reads and throw the ball.

 

FWIW Josh immediately looks to one side. He doesn't attempt to look off the safety on that side so the safety knows which side the initial reads are on.

Thanks Coot

[Mango]

26 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I don't have those stats

 

but I can confidently say having reads in the same vision plane is something football offenses at all levels do w regularity because it simplifies progressions

 

I think some folks watch and believe the only way you can tell if a QB is getting to multiple reads is if he reloads his stance and turns his head but I would guess getting to those reads is much less common (because among other things you need great pass pro and progression wise they're down the order) than having two or more reads at different depths in the same field of vision

 

I mean not for nothing but the helmet is a little constricting 😂

 

Oh for sure. I get that. But in the example that C1 used there were two pass catchers in the field of vision. Like what is the prevalence for total plays with more than 2 WR in the field of vision for both Josh and the league. 

This is where I get really curious about NFL offense design. Also I find the endless options for the way a WR can run the same route on the same play fascinating. 

For how dumb guys like Leodis McKelvin sounded, these guys are smart with lightning quick processing speeds. It is really impressive. 

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

But thats the basics . Easy two reads and knowing your pocket and where pressure is coming from

 

need to know in your head once the ball is snapped who is likely to be getting open or free. Long or short. and how many steps till that is going to happen

thats the advanced model

 

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

4th play. The right call and the right read against cover 2 gain. Diggs is covered, Kincaid  is open. Josh hits him on time. Great play in the situation. I am failing to see the criticism here. No talk about depth or field of view. Just sort of uses efficiency as a knock. 

 

5th play against Cover 2 again. Josh gets the snap inside the 10. Doesn't likes what he sees. Hits Cook quickly. Positive play for 4-ish yards. I don't see the criticism here. Isn't this what we should be doing if defenses are going to protect the big play at all costs? Take what the play they give us until they adjust to stop it. Then make the big play? Cover 1 says "But is the defense actually threatened? I don't know. Do we need to threaten a defense when we are that close to our own endzone, or do we need to move the offense up field a bit? 

 

6th play. This I think was a better example because the coverage shifts. I think we pull the trigger a little early on Diggs. By the eye test it feels like Kincaid may be the better option at that moment, although that window may have closed quickly. I think to say "are we scheming guys open" is an "it' term. Is there a difference between a coverage beater and "scheming a guy open"? Question, not pointing fingers. Dorsey thinks we will see cover 2 again on 3rd and 6 because we have seen it all game. We get to the line. Allen reads single high man. What are the checks and freedoms in the offense?  Is it just a "this is the play that's called" or do we audible. And I think this is where some things get murky from fan and amateur analysis, and we don't have anything definitive. None the less. Bad play call. 

 

7th play. Kincaid is open. Josh skips both him and Murray to look deep down the opposite sideline. C1 says he doesn't know the proper read, but says maybe he looks to the right because it is cover 1 not 2, and that is Davis deep. Hard time nailing Dorsey on this one when you look passed your open 2nd and 3rd reads to the opposite sideline because the QB might have gotten the pre snap read wrong. Pretty tough example for a video titled "Is Ken Dorsey's Offensive Scheme Holding Josh Allen Back". 

 

8th play is bad protection. I would be curious to see what this play looks like if given the opportunity to develop. But I don't have an issue with calling it a bad play either. 

 

9th play. C2 mentions that Dorsey makes the receivers do a lot of heavy lifting. Where do we draw the line between the WR running the option routes or finding the softs spots as part of the plan. I think Davis may have actually might have blow this one. He curls back way too late and runs 3 yards pass a soft spot in the zone. This play could have gone poorly. If not for Josh and Shakir this is likely a throw away. 

 

10th play - Good play from Josh. I can't believe those guys tripped over each other. 

 

11th play - I agree to an extent, what's the play? But it is also cover zero, with a spy on Josh. Davis was open with a facemask and a bad throw, and Shakir was open on the other side. But on the other hand, if there are two guys open what does "Players have to be frustrated at the lack of creativity" actually  mean? Guys are open. 

 

All in all I was hoping for a bit more depth and somethings that were a lot more egregious given the video's title. We aren't executing. Part is on the player. Part is on the coach. Happy to move on and get more/better weapons around the QB, but the plays in this video didn't get me worked up at all. 

I have been pretty unimpressed w Cover1 as of late tbh

[NoSaint]

3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Again if you want to say McDaniel schemes around their guys better I am in total agreement, I love the way their offense works

 

I'm just saying I believe we oversell our talent on that side of the ball

It’s not great, it’s not the worst but little is done to help them 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

 

I have been pretty unimpressed w Cover1 as of late tbh

To your point, the 9th play where Shakir finds a soft spot is a really good example of the receivers not carrying enough water. Davis curls his route back right into coverage. He ends that route a bit earlier and he’s sitting in green grass. 
 

I think games like this are a good use case for Davis. He gets enough respect to keep a healthy dose of cover 2. Go ahead and toss him a few when coverage allows. We didn’t need him with Kincaids production. 
 

My one criticism of the plays and concepts I saw on the C1 video is that I would love to get Cook (and Shakir) more involved in the passing game. I think that’s key to getting guys to cheat up a little more open up some passing lanes. 
 

EDIT: I’ll watch the whole A22 tomorrow. No time today. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Mango
Edit

[DCofNC]

7 hours ago, Bruffalo said:

I don't know but it's much more realistic to move on from Dorsey. If you see the same problems then you know it's likely McD.  Seems straightforward to me, but I'm oversimplifying it.  

Kinda like Frazier?

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Thoughts on this:

 

1) Am I the only one that wants Allen/Cook runs wayyyy more out of those two high, six man boxes? Hellooooo zone read. 
 

2) Allen missed some throws and made some obvious errors. He’s the 50 million dollar man. He is not absolved. 
 

3) I really question how much leniency Allen is being given at the LOS. No variation in these plays? Is that Dorsey, is that Allen’s comfort level? 
 

4) We desperately need to find a screen game, jet sweep, tap toss, swing pass, bubble screen, etc.

 

5) The Bengals gave a heavy dose of cover 2…but I was disappointed to see there wasn’t too much into the middle of the field from the slot. The Tampa looks take that away, but there are options here they aren’t exploring.

 

6) 4 yard efficient plays are okay. They can’t be the only option. 
 

7) The Bengals ability to rush 3 or 4 really widened their ability to take away our cover 2 beaters. They had extra bodies in coverage, and the OL either didn’t hold up, allen missed or didn’t find the right route, or the routes themselves are finite. A lot of the stops, whips, spot routes etc don’t carry. These defenses are zone matching our WRs and settling on them, blanketing those quick opportunities. 
 

😎 We are putting no stress on the back end of the defense. What happened to the 4 verticals? At some point any time they need to push the envelope. 
 

9) I don’t see how this gets solved, with this personnel and this offensive philosophy. 
 

10) I would be so interested to hear an opposing DCs or defensive players take on our concepts. It all seems so basic and rudimentary, and therefore, extremely difficult for our players to make plays. 

[3rdand12]

10

 Thanks for the bullet points. well sorted as semi counters.
Grateful to our fine posters here who can dissect footballs finer details for folks like me 😇

[Mango]

47 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Thoughts on this:

 

2) Allen missed some throws and made some obvious errors. He’s the 50 million dollar man. He is not absolved. 
 

3) I really question how much leniency Allen is being given at the LOS. No variation in these plays? Is that Dorsey, is that Allen’s comfort level? 
 

4) We desperately need to find a screen game, jet sweep, tap toss, swing pass, bubble screen, etc.

 

6) 4 yard efficient plays are okay. They can’t be the only option. 
 

7) The Bengals ability to rush 3 or 4 really widened their ability to take away our cover 2 beaters. They had extra bodies in coverage, and the OL either didn’t hold up, allen missed or didn’t find the right route, or the routes themselves are finite. A lot of the stops, whips, spot routes etc don’t carry. These defenses are zone matching our WRs and settling on them, blanketing those quick opportunities. 
 

😎 We are putting no stress on the back end of the defense. What happened to the 4 verticals? At some point any time they need to push the envelope.  
 

10) I would be so interested to hear an opposing DCs or defensive players take on our concepts. It all seems so basic and rudimentary, and therefore, extremely difficult for our players to make plays. 

2) Agreed. Watching live, this was my frustration.

 

3) I think this is where the answers to most of our questions about this offense lies. 
 

4) I think not being able to run the ball and not having a screen game made it very difficult to get CIN to break from their base defense. While it would be nice to steal some plays in the middle of the field, I’m not sure it would have gotten them to shift philosophy. 
 

6) Honestly, run it until they stop it. I don’t care. 4 yards a clip is fine. You won’t go broke making a profit. Make them get out of their base by taking the opportunities presented. Once they do they, assert your will. 
 

7 and 10) I think these two points answer each other. Rush 3/4, spy the. QB, and make Allen make good decisions. Some of the post games I hear from other teams are more polite versions of the “make him play QB” we heard about Lamar. But to your point; I don’t think Dorsey is helping either. 
 

😎I agree, you have to sometimes throw the deep ball to keep everybody honest. But situationally after a stalled drive and the defense not being able to get off the field, that sequence of events on the 3rd drive was bad. I’ll also add, Cincinnati was protecting the deep ball in their Tampa 2. It didn’t feel like they needed to drop down. We needed to make them pay for not respecting anything else other than the big play. 
 

If anything I think defenses sometimes take advantage of Josh’s impatience. He wants to push the ball down the field so bad. He can’t help himself sometimes. 
 

Looking forward to taking a look at the first half A22 and what was different in the second other than tempo. 

[ProcessTruster]

yeah but the Cover 1 kid, whatever his name is, couldn't heap enough praise on Dorsey after the Bucs game...

 

go watch that youtube, he makes the offense out to be truly inspired.  its a "wadda done for me lately" league

 

If they lose to the Broncos on monday night, then its time to think about things a bit,  not now

Edited November 8, 2023 by ProcessTruster

[Mango]

10 hours ago, schoolhouserock said:

A very nice video from Cover1.

 

About midway through, he makes a point that really resonates with me. He tries to explain what the Bills’ players mean by ‘we just have to execute the offense’ or ‘we just have to run the plays that are called.’

 

The Bills are not scheming. They’re not trying to pick on specific weaknesses of the opposing defense. Instead, they are running an offense that is supposed to work against any defense. If that’s the case, then why bother scheming?

 

 

C1 showed about 10 plays. Something like 8 of them were against cover 2. And each time he said something like “these are cover 2 beater routes. But what is he scheming.”

 

I honestly don’t know what means. Each play had 2+ guys open. It’s so odd to me to look at a play with multiple guys open and go “I agree frustrating play design”

 

I think there are some situational things Dorsey struggles with. I wish he’d do some different things to get guys working in their skill sets so they’re set up for success. I also think that the constant misfires in reads and route running also falls on coaching. 
 

There was a play C1 showed that was single high man, with a QB spy and we ran cover 2 zone route concepts. But many times we run man concepts on one side, zone on the other. This is where I get curious about the ongoings at OBD. Does Allen have the freedom to check out of that? I know we run the EP which is supposed to be super malleable but requires a lot of work from the QB/WR pre and post snap. Was that a misread? Or did we think because we saw two high all day, that’s what we were getting? I think this is the area we’re getting lost on offense the most.
 

I’ll get through the complete A22 tomorrow but if those 10 or so plays are the most compelling case against Dorsey’s play design, then the design isn’t the problem.

 

. 

[Scott7975]

10 minutes ago, Mango said:

C1 showed about 10 plays. Something like 8 of them were against cover 2. And each time he said something like “these are cover 2 beater routes. But what is he scheming.”

 

I honestly don’t know what means. Each play had 2+ guys open. It’s so odd to me to look at a play with multiple guys open and go “I agree frustrating play design”

 

I think there are some situational things Dorsey struggles with. I wish he’d do some different things to get guys working in their skill sets so they’re set up for success. I also think that the constant misfires in reads and route running also falls on coaching. 
 

There was a play C1 showed that was single high man, with a QB spy and we ran cover 2 zone route concepts. But many times we run man concepts on one side, zone on the other. This is where I get curious about the ongoings at OBD. Does Allen have the freedom to check out of that? I know we run the EP which is supposed to be super malleable but requires a lot of work from the QB/WR pre and post snap. Was that a misread? Or did we think because we saw two high all day, that’s what we were getting? I think this is the area we’re getting lost on offense the most.
 

I’ll get through the complete A22 tomorrow but if those 10 or so plays are the most compelling case against Dorsey’s play design, then the design isn’t the problem.

 

. 

 

The design is still the problem.  This is not what Josh excels at.  You make your offense around the personnel, not force the personnel into stuff they don't excel at.  Imagine Miami having Tua chuck balls like Josh last year.  It doesn't work that way.  I am also not sure I agree with your assessment but I don't have all22 so...

[Mango]

5 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The design is still the problem.  This is not what Josh excels at.  You make your offense around the personnel, not force the personnel into stuff they don't excel at.  Imagine Miami having Tua chuck balls like Josh last year.  It doesn't work that way.  I am also not sure I agree with your assessment but I don't have all22 so...

The defenses called in the video was designed to take away the stuff Josh likes. It was their game plan. They said so much. The offensive plays in video had 2+ guys open on about 8 of 10 plays. What else do you want? 
 

Unsure what you disagree with in my assessment that would require you to have A22. Almost all my commentary in this thread have been about the 10 or so plays used by C1. All you have to do is watch the video this thread is based on and then you’d know what plays you disagree on. 
 

There are valid criticism of Dorsey. I even mentioned some of your same concerns in the post you quoted. But it seems like the comment section in this thread just listened to the audio, didn’t actually watch any of the video, and are repeating some of the platitudes. 
 

Simply a defense was called, the offensive play call beats it with multiple receivers open fairly regularly in the video C1 provided. And this entire thread has burst into “bUt ThAt IsN’t WhAt AlLeN lIkEs To dO. wE aReN’t ScHeMiNg GuYs OpEn”. WTF does not scheming guys open mean in a video where like 8 of 10 plays hand picked to support the premise,  has 2+ guys open on the plays?

 

Is this what I want this offense to look like? No, not regularly. But if teams refuse to break out of a cover 2 shell? He’ll yes, beat the shirt out of them with 4-6 yard routes underneath until they break out of it and start cheating up. 
 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

13 hours ago, boyst said:

is it Dorsey or is it McDermott?

 

It's weird we hear so little out of this organization and the media refuses to critique the team. However, sometimes in what they don't say we find something. In this case it is the idea that McDermott has had input to strategically limit our plays.

 

I think it's mostly Dorsey, but I also think McDermott is a part of the problem.

 

Daboll did what he wanted and would let Josh do what he wanted. He and McDermott reportedly butted heads and didn't get along. 

 

Since Dorsey has taken over, the edict to keep Josh more in the pocket and banging him over the head to be more careful and run less is 100% McDermott driven, in my opinion.

 

Where Daboll would do whatever was needed to be done and let the reigns off of Josh, Dorsey is more of a yes man to McDermott. And I think he's having a lot more say in the Offense and what Josh should and shouldn't be doing than ever before.

 

I don't have any firm evidence to support my hypothesis. But I do believe Josh isn't as free under Dorsey as he was under Daboll and that's part of the problem with the Offense.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

13 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

IMO (still) Dorsey is the problem

 

Edit: sorry @HappyDays I just noticed you posted this in the Dorsey thread.  I didn't see it because sometimes when I click a thread it skips a page or two that I haven't read yet.  Mods can delete if they want.

 

 

 

not scheming players open but relying on the players to get open i an absolute travesty. Also not sticking with the no huddle while it's working is a fireable offense