Saint Josh of Buffalo?

[oldmanfan]

The past several days there has been a lot of talk about Josh.  Among the things that I have read just today:

 

He can’t ever learn to read defenses pre-snap so just let him play how he wants

 

He was better when Daboll was here, and Daboll hated McD so much he was willing to throw away a series in one of the playoff games against the Chiefs to prove it.

 

Josh is already a sure fire first ballot HOFer and the best player to ever put on a Bills uniform

 

The issue the offense has had recently are all Dorsey’s fault, or the O line, or the WRs. 
 

And so on.  It seems to some that Josh and the quality of his play is untouchable, that no one dare question anything about his play.

 

Here is my perspective, and I’ve literally seen every player that has ever played for the Bills since 1960.  I love that we have Josh as our QB.  He is the mainstay of the team.  He gives us a shot every time he walks in the field. I think he may be the most physically gifted QB we have had in team history.  His arm strength is great, although Kelly’s was as well and Jack Kemp did not exactly have a noodle arm.  He is competitive and tough as you want; again so was Kelly and for those who don’t remember Kemp he was a bulldog as well.  But Josh is on a plain above them and others QBs playing today when talking about his physical skills.  if Josh continues on his path he will be in the HOF and I fully expect at least one Lombardi or two before he’s done.  He may be the best to ever wear the uniform especially when he wins a Lombardi (but at present Bruce and OJ would have an argument).
 

But he is not a saint.  He is not perfect, he is not immune from criticism, and there are things he can improve in his game.  In that regard he is like any other NFL player or coach,  past or present.  McD and Dorsey deserve criticism at times.  Daboll did when he was here (many forget the vitriol thrown at him).  The WRs, the line, the RBs they all deserve it at times.  And so does Josh.  The Jets game he stunk.  There, I said it.  So did Josh.  Then he played great in the three blowout games.  He hasn’t played well in the first half of the last 3 games, then played very well in the second halves.  He turns the ball over more than he should.  And when people say he has no one to throw to, sometimes yes but the film says sometimes no.

 

If it was any other player on the team, no one would argue that player is perfect, that they should be immune from criticism.  Josh is no different in that regard.  He is different from the perspective of how prodigious his physical talent is, but not that he cannot continue improving.  Someone said today that he can never be a Brady in terms of pre-snaps reads.  I say:  why not?  Why can’t he continue improving there, improving in recognizing blitzes.  Improving in getting the ball out to a hot read?  Why?

 

Again, I love Josh.  I love how much he has brought to the team.  I love how he has embraced the community, the Mafia, his talent, and that we have our guy, a guy that I know can take us all the way, for at least another 10 years.  But he is not a saint.  I don’t think we need to treat him as such.  Let’s recognize him for what he is; a tremendously talented QB who with continued experience may very well be spoken of as one of the greatest ever.  But that at present he has room to get better.  And if someone had the temerity to say so it does not mean they are a non-fan, or Bills hater, or whatever. 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by oldmanfan

[Ramza86]

I mean...we pretty much trash him when he plays how the average top QB plays. Hes currently on the highest of pedestals.

 

Literally just watch all the top QBs play. They miss just as much as Allen misses. 

 

Mahomes has been pretty bad by our standards if you watch his games.

 

Allen has been a freak of nature for us. So hes no longer running people over and doing WOW stuff he just looks like any other top QB now.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Ramza86

[Success]

I have no issue at all with criticism.

 

But some here are just over the top about it.  There is a difference between analytical criticism, and just saying he's trash or something. And we've seen the latter on this board.

 

 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Ramza86 said:

I mean...we pretty much trash him when he plays how the average QB plays. Hes currently on the highest of pedistals.

 

Literally just watch all the top QBs play. They miss just as much as Allen misses. 

 

Mahomes has been pretty bad by our standards if you watch his games.

 

Allen has been a freak of nature for us. So hes no longer running people over and doing WOW stuff he just looks like any other top QB now.

Correct

 

It's good to have high standards but you have to be realistic

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

No one is above criticism, he stunk week 1, he wasn't great on Sunday. What I can't stand is the people who only understand football through the lens of the QB. What I also find ridiculous is it has to be an either or. There are alot of problems with this team right now. And, trying to fix them requires prioritization. The critics of Allen act like he fixes it and all is well. Not true. That is all.

[oldmanfan]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

I have no issue at all with criticism.

 

But some here are just over the top about it.  There is a difference between analytical criticism, and just saying he's trash or something. And we've seen the latter on this board.

 

 

Agreed

5 minutes ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

No one is above criticism, he stunk week 1, he wasn't great on Sunday. What I can't stand is the people who only understand football through the lens of the QB. What I also find ridiculous is it has to be an either or. There are alot of problems with this team right now. And, trying to fix them requires prioritization. The critics of Allen act like he fixes it and all is well. Not true. That is all.

Agreed.  It is a multi factorial problem.

[RobbRiddick]

He's not a saint. But Bernard is

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, RobbRiddick said:

He's not a saint. But Bernard is

Bernard may be the NT we need.

[T&C]

I like the mention of Kemp... the only QB we have who led us to the title.

[CincyBillsFan]

24 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

The past several days there has been a lot of talk about Josh.  Among the things that I have read just today:

 

He can’t ever learn to read defenses pre-snap so just let him play how he wants

 

He was better when Daboll was here, and Daboll hated McD so much he was willing to throw away a series in one of the playoff games against the Chiefs to prove it.

 

Josh is already a sure fire first ballot HOFer and the best player to ever put on a Bills uniform

 

The issue the offense has had recently are all Dorsey’s fault, or the O line, or the WRs. 
 

And so on.  It seems to some that Josh and the quality of his play is untouchable, that no one dare question anything about his play.

 

Here is my perspective, and I’ve literally seen every player that has ever played for the Bills since 1960.  I love that we have Josh as our QB.  He is the mainstay of the team.  He gives us a shot every time he walks in the field. I think he may be the most physically gifted QB we have had in team history.  His arm strength is great, although Kelly’s was as well and Jack Kemp did not exactly have a noodle arm.  He is competitive and tough as you want; again so was Kelly and for those who don’t remember Kemp he was a bulldog as well.  But Josh is on a plain above them and others QBs playing today when talking about his physical skills.  if Josh continues on his path he will be in the HOF and I fully expect at least one Lombardi or two before he’s done.  He may be the best to ever wear the uniform especially when he wins a Lombardi (but at present Bruce and OJ would have an argument).
 

But he is not a saint.  He is not perfect, he is not immune from criticism, and there are things he can improve in his game.  In that regard he is like any other NFL player or coach,  past or present.  McD and Dorsey deserve criticism at times.  Daboll did when he was here (many forget the vitriol thrown at him).  The WRs, the line, the RBs they all deserve it at times.  And so does Josh.  The Jets game he stunk.  There, I said it.  So did Josh.  Then he played great in the three blowout games.  He hasn’t played well in the first half of the last 3 games, then played very well in the second halves.  He turns the ball over more than he should.  And when people say he has no one to throw to, sometimes yes but the film says sometimes no.

 

If it was any other player on the team, no one would argue that player is perfect, that they should be immune from criticism.  Josh is no different in that regard.  He is different from the perspective of how prodigious his physical talent is, but not that he cannot continue improving.  Someone said today that he can never be a Brady in terms of pre-snaps reads.  I say:  why not?  Why can’t he continue improving there, improving in recognizing blitzes.  Improving in getting the ball out to a hot read?  Why?

 

Again, I love Josh.  I love how much he has brought to the team.  I love how he has embraced the community, the Mafia, his talent, and that we have our guy, a guy that I know can take us all the way, for at least another 10 years.  But he is not a saint.  I don’t think we need to treat him as such.  Let’s recognize him for what he is; a tremendously talented QB who with continued experience may very well be spoken of as one of the greatest ever.  But that at present he has room to get better.  And if someone had the temerity to say so it does not mean they are a non-fan, or Bills hater, or whatever. 

 

 

Who is saying Allen is above reproach and should never be criticized?  You are mislabeling those of us who push back hard on over the top attacks on Allen as people that are unwilling to tolerate any legitimate criticisms of Allen. That is not what is going on here.  And your choice of "Saint Allen" in your thread title betrays your misreading of what we're saying.

 

I have no problems with legit criticisms of Allen.  But I'm also not obligated to agree with every one of these criticisms either. There are places where reasonable and knowledgeable Bills fans can disagree on Allen.  After all those of us called "Allen homers" on 2BD largely criticized Allen after the Jets game. 

 

And we don't have to be harsh in our criticism.  IMO Allen has earned the benefit of the doubt from Bills fans that no QB since Jim Kelly has earned.  I see to many posters tell us Allen is lazy or can't read defenses or is distracted by off field activities or doesn't see the field well and on and on.  I don't agree with this because while it is true that Allen is many of these things at times in a game, like every other QB, it is also true that overall Allen is not these things.  And my proof is his season to date stats. 

 

Allen's rank among QB Starters:

 

Yards passing = #6

 

Passing TD's = tied with Mahomes & Tua for #2

 

Total TD's = #1

 

Regular QB Rating = #6

 

QBR = #3

 

Sorry but given the quality of the Bills O line and skill players not named Diggs a QB that doesn't see the field well or read defenses could not put up these stats. Allen is not surrounded by the Eagles or 49's offensive units.

 

Bringing it back to the NE game.  Some of us are reacting to those claiming that Allen played terribly.  Do you think he did?  The objective evidence overwhelmingly supports that overall he played very good and had the Bills in a position to win the game.  That is not saying Allen couldn't have played better, he could have. If elite Allen was on the field the Bills win that game no matter what the D does. 

 

So a reasonable position to disagree IMO is whether Allen was very good or just good in the NE game.  I would never characterize Allen's play against NE as great that would be wrong.  But equally wrong is to try to claim Allen played poorly against NE.

 

But as Greg Cosell says repeatedly when discussing the Bills:  "If you need your QB to be elite in every game you have a big problem and it's not the QB".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, T&C said:

I like the mention of Kemp... the only QB we have who led us to the title.

Still, imo Allen is the best QB the Bills have ever had ( no offense to J. Kelly) 

[FireChans]

37 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

I mean...we pretty much trash him when he plays how the average top QB plays. Hes currently on the highest of pedestals.

 

Literally just watch all the top QBs play. They miss just as much as Allen misses. 

 

Mahomes has been pretty bad by our standards if you watch his games.

 

Allen has been a freak of nature for us. So hes no longer running people over and doing WOW stuff he just looks like any other top QB now.

PATRICK MAHOMES IS 6-1. His passer rating is better than Josh's. He is throwing for more yards than Josh.

 

And you're telling me he's "pretty bad" by our standards?  So Josh is even worse???

 

Am I taking crazy pills?

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

PATRICK MAHOMES IS 6-1. His passer rating is better than Josh's. He is throwing for more yards than Josh.

 

And you're telling me he's "pretty bad" by our standards?  So Josh is even worse???

 

Am I taking crazy pills?

This is instructive re W/L

 

Common opponent was Jags

 

Having watched both games (or not😂😂) can you confidently say the difference in outcome was QB performance

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Who is saying Allen is above reproach and should never be criticized?  You are mislabeling those of us who push back hard on over the top attacks on Allen as people that are unwilling to tolerate any legitimate criticisms of Allen. That is not what is going on here.  And your choice of "Saint Allen" in your thread title betrays your misreading of what we're saying.

 

I have no problems with legit criticisms of Allen.  But I'm also not obligated to agree with every one of these criticisms either. There are places where reasonable and knowledgeable Bills fans can disagree on Allen.  After all those of us called "Allen homers" on 2BD largely criticized Allen after the Jets game. 

 

And we don't have to be harsh in our criticism.  IMO Allen has earned the benefit of the doubt from Bills fans that no QB since Jim Kelly has earned.  I see to many posters tell us Allen is lazy or can't read defenses or is distracted by off field activities or doesn't see the field well and on and on.  I don't agree with this because while it is true that Allen is many of these things at times in a game, like every other QB, it is also true that overall Allen is not these things.  And my proof is his season to date stats. 

 

Allen's rank among QB Starters:

 

Yards passing = #6

 

Passing TD's = tied with Mahomes & Tua for #2

 

Total TD's = #1

 

Regular QB Rating = #6

 

QBR = #3

 

Sorry but given the quality of the Bills O line and skill players not named Diggs a QB that doesn't see the field well or read defenses could not put up these stats. Allen is not surrounded by the Eagles or 49's offensive units.

 

Bringing it back to the NE game.  Some of us are reacting to those claiming that Allen played terribly.  Do you think he did?  The objective evidence overwhelmingly supports that overall he played very good and had the Bills in a position to win the game.  That is not saying Allen couldn't have played better, he could have. If elite Allen was on the field the Bills win that game no matter what the D does. 

 

So a reasonable position to disagree IMO is whether Allen was very good or just good in the NE game.  I would never characterize Allen's play against NE as great that would be wrong.  But equally wrong is to try to claim Allen played poorly against NE.

 

But as Greg Cosell says repeatedly when discussing the Bills:  "If you need your QB to be elite in every game you have a big problem and it's not the QB".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He was not good in the first half Sunday.  He was the Josh we expect the second half.  It’s hard to win in the NFL when your QB is off his game for 50% of the time.  

[RobbRiddick]

7 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Who is saying Allen is above reproach and should never be criticized?  You are mislabeling those of us who push back hard on over the top attacks on Allen as people that are unwilling to tolerate any legitimate criticisms of Allen. That is not what is going on here.  And your choice of "Saint Allen" in your thread title betrays your misreading of what we're saying.

 

I have no problems with legit criticisms of Allen.  But I'm also not obligated to agree with every one of these criticisms either. There are places where reasonable and knowledgeable Bills fans can disagree on Allen.  After all those of us called "Allen homers" on 2BD largely criticized Allen after the Jets game. 

 

And we don't have to be harsh in our criticism.  IMO Allen has earned the benefit of the doubt from Bills fans that no QB since Jim Kelly has earned.  I see to many posters tell us Allen is lazy or can't read defenses or is distracted by off field activities or doesn't see the field well and on and on.  I don't agree with this because while it is true that Allen is many of these things at times in a game, like every other QB, it is also true that overall Allen is not these things.  And my proof is his season to date stats. 

 

Allen's rank among QB Starters:

 

Yards passing = #6

 

Passing TD's = tied with Mahomes & Tua for #2

 

Total TD's = #1

 

Regular QB Rating = #6

 

QBR = #3

 

Sorry but given the quality of the Bills O line and skill players not named Diggs a QB that doesn't see the field well or read defenses could not put up these stats. Allen is not surrounded by the Eagles or 49's offensive units.

 

Bringing it back to the NE game.  Some of us are reacting to those claiming that Allen played terribly.  Do you think he did?  The objective evidence overwhelmingly supports that overall he played very good and had the Bills in a position to win the game.  That is not saying Allen couldn't have played better, he could have. If elite Allen was on the field the Bills win that game no matter what the D does. 

 

So a reasonable position to disagree IMO is whether Allen was very good or just good in the NE game.  I would never characterize Allen's play against NE as great that would be wrong.  But equally wrong is to try to claim Allen played poorly against NE.

 

But as Greg Cosell says repeatedly when discussing the Bills:  "If you need your QB to be elite in every game you have a big problem and it's not the QB".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yep. Allen certainly isn't above criticism, but you're right that he doesn't get the credit for doing what he does with so little. Mediocre O-line, never had a great running game, Knox is not close to the top TEs in the league, Davis is an extremely limited number 2 WR, and the rest of the WRs are nothing but journeymen. And yet as you point out he's still right there with the leaders in every category.

 

I guess a Josh skeptic would say he's the reason Knox and the other WRs aren't better, but I'm inclined to say only Andy Reid could make those guys consistently explosive.

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, T&C said:

I like the mention of Kemp... the only QB we have who led us to the title.

Caught a pass at autograph day from him when I was 9 years old.  He drilled it at my chest and I hung on.  Think I still have the mark.

Edited October 24, 2023 by oldmanfan

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

PATRICK MAHOMES IS 6-1. His passer rating is better than Josh's. He is throwing for more yards than Josh.

 

And you're telling me he's "pretty bad" by our standards?  So Josh is even worse???

 

Am I taking crazy pills?

Mahomes and Allen are pretty darn close in all of the statistical measures.  I would agree that Mahomes is a bit ahead of him at this point in the season. But NO ONE would call out Mahomes for the things they're calling out Allen for.  Yet objectively both QB's performance over the season so far is very similar. Allen had the worst game of the two but he also had the best game of the two. 

 

So again why are people dogging Allen about reading defenses and seeing the field in ways they wouldn't dare say about Mahomes for fear of looking stupid?

 

 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

This is instructive re W/L

 

Common opponent was Jags

 

Having watched both games (or not😂😂) can you confidently say the difference in outcome was QB performance

Common opponent was Jags and Jets my guy.  Go ahead and tell me QB performance didn't matter lol.

 

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

Mahomes and Allen are pretty darn close in all of the statistical measures.  I would agree that Mahomes is a bit ahead of him at this point in the season. But NO ONE would call out Mahomes for the things they're calling out Allen for.  Yet objectively both QB's performance over the season so far is very similar. Allen had the worst game of the two but he also had the best game of the two. 

 

So again why are people dogging Allen about reading defenses and seeing the field in ways they wouldn't dare say about Mahomes for fear of looking stupid?

 

 

Um, the guy I responded to just said Mahomes was having a bad year. So wrong.

[oldmanfan]

Just now, CincyBillsFan said:

Mahomes and Allen are pretty darn close in all of the statistical measures.  I would agree that Mahomes is a bit ahead of him at this point in the season. But NO ONE would call out Mahomes for the things they're calling out Allen for.  Yet objectively both QB's performance over the season so far is very similar. Allen had the worst game of the two but he also had the best game of the two. 

 

So again why are people dogging Allen about reading defenses and seeing the field in ways they wouldn't dare say about Mahomes for fear of looking stupid?

 

 

You would have to look at film for both.  Film I have seen with Josh from the last couple games is that there are guys open but he goes elsewhere.  Not so much in the run of three games when we blew teams out.  Don’t know about Mahomes but he has Kelce that teams can double or ever triple and he still gets open.  I wish Josh had a safety valve like that.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Common opponent was Jags and Jets my guy.  Go ahead and tell me QB performance didn't matter lol.

 

Um, the guy I responded to just said Mahomes was having a bad year. So wrong.

Yes which is why nobody would argue that that a better QB  performance vsJETS would have produced a result