Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 minute ago, SWATeam said:

Yet everyone was screaming before about him running too much...  

 

They were wrong and it's time for them to admit that. 

 

Josh might not have a 10+ year career but do you want this version of an 85% Allen playing for 15+ years and hoping to make the wild card every year? 

 

We've heard Josh says he can't continue to throw his body around like he has. I wonder if he truly thinks that or if it's just what he has been told over and over again so he has convinced himself of it as well. 

 

It's Allen's body and mind so if he truly wants to protect himself, he should. But as fans we need to lower our expectations if we are not getting the fully maximized talents that he has week in and week out. We just have to hope he can flip a switch in the postseason assuming we get there. 

[uticaclub]

38 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

So what is changing from Allen’s performance vs the Raiders and Dolphins vs the basically the remainder of teams? I would say he was good not great against Washington. Were these games outlier? 
 

Do the Jags, Pats play a more physical style in your face type of Defense? 
 

Is it motivation?  Lack  of prep?

 

I don’t know but the contrast between the 2 games we scored a lot of points vs the last couple weekends is  really strange?

 

Somerhing has to be going on between his ears.. 

 

 

The obvious answer would be Dolphins & Raiders have the worst defenses we played

[SCBills]

Going to listen to this later, but it seems like the other guys who break down tape all agree with Joe Marino here.

 

Disappointing to see a guy who worked so hard when he came into the league to become someone who had control of this at an elite level, all of a sudden regress in certain games to the point where he's one of the main culprits of our offensive woes. 

 

I'm not one to say he isn't putting in the work or he's distracted, but something is off.  The stuff he's been struggling with lately is all cerebral....and all stuff that he had made a strength of his game before. 

[Andrew Son]

7 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 We have heard he doesn't do a lot of film study and that is because thats not his strength. Therefore you have to playt to his strengths, and that is something Beane and comapny are not very good at

Unfortunately the defenses we play are well aware of his strengths as well.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

Counterpoint, Josh wasn’t hyped as the Second Coming of Christ 

sed contra: because he went to Wyoming instead of Awesome U

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Ugh, what a great play design. QB sucked. 3rd and goal.

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

8 minutes ago, boater said:

Too blame? How can this be? I have fifteen pages right here: How Good is Josh Allen Really? of Bills fans predicting HoF for Josh.

 

🙄 He is a HOF'er already. He's on his way to his 4th straight 40+ TD season. Let's  not confuse Josh Allen playing below his standards as to mean he is now no longer playing at an elite level on average. 

[oldmanfan]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

How does he have half as many runs as years past then? That is more than just getting in his head about sliding. If that was the case he would maybe half 20% less runs but not half as many. As @Big Turk pointed out, we are taking the league's most physically gifted and dominant QB and turning him into Justin Herbert. And now we are getting LA Chargers results. 

They may not want him to run as much to avoid injury, true.  And to slide as well.  But they also want him to make the right pre-snap reads and get the ball out to the right guy at the right time.  Which he did very well in the 3 blowout wins.  And has not done that well the last 3 games.  

 

This is a multifactoral issue with issues on many fronts.  Dorsey needs to be much more imaginative in play calling.  You can't automatically call runs on second and less than 5 yards, for example, and the stupid delay to Cook out of the shotgun needs to disappear forever.  The O line needs to hold up better in general and protections need to be adjusted when blitzes are read (or should be read).  Josh needs to make the right reads as mentioned above.  Receivers need to get better separation.

 

The thing is we know it can work given how we blew three teams in a row off the field.  But defenses adjust, and the offense must do so in response.  The biggest issue I had Sunday was that supposedly Doresy and Josh and the other coaches spent a ton of time discussing what plays they felt they wanted to run, and not, to avoid another poor start.  And look what happened.  Josh throws an ugly pick and before you know it, they're down 10-0.  That does not bode well.

6 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

They were wrong and it's time for them to admit that. 

 

Josh might not have a 10+ year career but do you want this version of an 85% Allen playing for 15+ years and hoping to make the wild card every year? 

 

We've heard Josh says he can't continue to throw his body around like he has. I wonder if he truly thinks that or if it's just what he has been told over and over again so he has convinced himself of it as well. 

 

It's Allen's body and mind so if he truly wants to protect himself, he should. But as fans we need to lower our expectations if we are not getting the fully maximized talents that he has week in and week out. We just have to hope he can flip a switch in the postseason assuming we get there. 

You realize it's a team game and that whatever Josh wants to do personally isn't the issue, right?

[oldmanfan]

9 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

On Sunday when the offense took the field my wife made a real-time comment and said the camera close-ups of Allen showed a look in his eyes that indicated Josh is not mentally focused on the game.  Then he threw the INT on the first play.

 

 

I started a thread yesterday that got a lot of pushbacks, and in it I wrote that I said to my wife that Josh looked disinterested at time, and that I was shocked that I felt that way.  I do think he and the team want him to play with control and not get so amped up it affects his performance.  There is something going on, and none of us can possibly know what it is because we're not part of the team.  Is Josh frustrated with Dorsey's play calling?  Something off the field?  who knows?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You realize it's a team game and that whatever Josh wants to do personally isn't the issue, right?

 

Josh's athleticism one way the team can overcome his and his teammates mental lapses. That is my point. We have taken away a good amount of his athleticism by beating it into his and the coaching staff's head that he should not run as much. We need to be prepared to pay the consequences of possibly enduring a couple more regular season losses because of it. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Josh's athleticism one way the team can overcome his and his teammates mental lapses. That is my point. We have taken away a good amount of his athleticism by beating it into his and the coaching staff's head that he should not run as much. We need to be prepared to pay the consequences of possibly enduring a couple more regular season losses because of it. 

I would argue he'd be better off working on his mental lapses, as one would expect players at other positions to do.

[Royale with Cheese]

The ones who understand film study are going to tell you a lot of this is on Allen.  My feelings have been that too.

 

I agree with @Coach Tuesday....he's not prepared on game days mentally.  He's winging it.  He's winging it hard and giving everything that he has but in the NFL, especially at QB, that only takes you so far.

 

If Allen called for this players only meeting and its true he hasn't been putting in the preparation, I hope that means he starts putting in more time.

 

This is all a guess, I have no idea what was said in the meeting but I just hope people are called out.

[BillsFan2313]

1 hour ago, DaggersEOD said:

I miss the fired up leader Josh. 
 

I think that we may have gotten the wrong lesson from the 2020/Covid season with no fans. Thinking we need him to just be ice cold and detached to win. 
 

Watching him now, I get more Cutler vibes than Unquestioned Leader vibes. 
 

When was the last time we saw JA17 firing up the team?  It’s like he’s a shadow of himself. 

 

He was firing up the defense before the last drive. It didn't work. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Well you look at the assorted pieces these team has: Gabe, Sherfield, Harty, Shakir, Kincaid, Cook, Murray. 

 

As Marino says - Gabe doesn't uncover quickly, build up speed, not sudden, can't separate, limited route tree based on go's, he's no different and doesn't have the traits to become a different WR. 

 

Harty has never been a featured piece in the NFL. 2023 (7 games) is 12% of his total NFL yardage. In 2020 he caught one 40-yarder, in 2021 it looks like he caught a handful of long ones including a 72-yarder, and he has a 43-yarder this year. In 2020-2021 he played about 33% of snaps. 

 

Sherfield is journeyman, and for us, has some size at 6'1". Looking through his 2022 Dolphins log's, outside of the 75 yard TD against the 49ers where he caught the ball on a dead run up the middle, he was 1 catch 5 yards, 2 catches 10 yards in most other games. 

 

Shakir has 18-236 in his career. But he's shown in the Raiders game this year, the Steelers game last year, some big catches in the 4th against the Ravens in 2022 that he can get open. Played 29% of snaps as a rookie, and is at 25% this season and probably increasing. 

 

Kincaid looks to be the intermediate option for Josh so far.

 

I expect the offense to look the same - short, quick passes. Maybe some more 3 wide and 4 wide with Knox out, a lot of short stuff underneath to these sub weapons. Gabe occasionally gets a deeper pass thrown his way??

 

Cook's usage in the pass game is sporadic, so banking on him becoming a larger piece with a floor of targets, I've never seen it. 

 

If the premise is Allen wants to throw deep, I don't see how his weapons fit that strength. These are mostly smaller WRs with no history of being big pieces in an offense. Jalin Hyatt or George Pickens are probably a better fit for verticality. 

 

3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

The ones who understand film study are going to tell you a lot of this is on Allen.  My feelings have been that too.

 

I agree with @Coach Tuesday....he's not prepared on game days mentally.  He's winging it.  He's winging it hard and giving everything that he has but in the NFL, especially at QB, that only takes you so far.

 

If Allen called for this players only meeting and its true he hasn't been putting in the preparation, I hope that means he starts putting in more time.

 

This is all a guess, I have no idea what was said in the meeting but I just hope people are called out.

They'll also harp on execution. 

[Motorin']

I wish someone could find the log of Josh's gamer activity and see if there's a correlation between his bad games and him staying up all night on a Friday or Saturday night playing some stupid video game. 

 

 

[H2o]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

And this is where I think the loss of Daboll has effected him the most. Josh is still one of the best QB's in the game, top 3, but the loss of Daboll has taken it's toll on him in this area specifically. Just the breakdown of what he's seeing in front of him, things he and Daboll worked on prior to game day. 

[pocoboy]

It will be interesting to see how this narrative grows in the next few weeks if this trend continues. Last year's KC game and this year's Miami game are so very similar in terms of momentary signficance, leading to national Media anointing as the top team.

 

It's fair to wonder if this kind of "pinnacle" effect engenders some relaxation from QB1, especially when matched up against perceived dwarfs. We wanted to blame the London thing, but maybe it's a mental thing more than a fatigue thing.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

He didn't like a lot of things (says Morse played much worse than usual, that Torrance was bad, Spencer Brown allowed two big pressures and Gabe Davis also, that James Cook was "a disaster in pass protection,") etc. He had plenty more criticism of others, as well. So he certainly did not blame it all on Josh by any means. But ...

 

"As I watched this offensive tape, it became very clear to me that Josh Allen really struggled in this game. And I know that nobody ever wants to hear that Josh Allen played poorly, and I'm sure that lots of you are going to yell at me for saying that Josh played poorly, but he did.

 

"Could things have been better around him? Absolutely. Could Ken Dorsey have been a little better in this game? Absolutely.

 

"But I thought the top reason for how the offense performed against New England was the play of Josh Allen. 

 

"Let me give you some themes from what I observed, and I think that as more people study the tape, you're going to see a lot of what I'm sharing here being echoed throughout those who watch film. I thought his processing and decision-making was really off in this game. He had some very frustrating turndowns, especially under pressure. And I thought his whole mental approach was very poor with protections and how he set protections, working away from where the protections were set, not necessarily feeling or sensing or seeing or reacting to pressure schemes correctly based on what New England was giving him.

 

"I thought his tempo was poor. He didn't get through progressions with enough urgency, especially when New England either had pressure or had very obvious route combinations leveraged and his eyes needed to be in different places. He was late to process pressure, I mean they're sending extra guys and it's not affecting the way that he's attacking the play. I thought his trigger was incredibly slow. Once again his average time to throw over 3.15 seconds. That's going to put a lot of stress on your offensive line. And I have plenty of criticism for those guys, but I mean Mac Jones got the ball out in 2.2 seconds, literally a full second quicker. The amount of stress that puts on the offensive line compared to what Josh did is really different.

 

"He absolutely had some accuracy lapses, right? The two misfires to Stefon Diggs, the deep shot, then the outbreaking pattern, missed them. Josh has to get back to taking profits and playing smart football. His average depth of target against New England was 10.6.

 

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

"Not making correct decisions on run-pass options. I mean, honestly minus the quantity of turnovers, I felt a lot of things about Josh Allen that I did in that Jets game in Week One. Thought he was chasing some plays and just not doing the smart correct thing with any level of consistency that's needed to win a football game.

 

"And I'm not talking about Josh Allen not being Josh Allen. that's not what I'm saying. But within the context of a football game, there are certain times where you just need to take the profit, you need to go to the smart place with the football. And Josh Allen didn't do that.

 

"Now, I'm confident this analysis is going to be met with some resistance, some anger at me for daring to say that Josh Allen played poorly, and not pointing enough fingers at Ken Dorsey or enough fingers at being able to trust the offensive line, or weapons or whatever you want to point at.

 

"I watched that game, I studied it in depth, the biggest problem on the offense was 17. ... Josh Allen is not perfect, he has bad games and this was absolutely one of them. Missed so many opportunities. And he did some good, there's no doubt. I enjoyed the three touchdown drives in the second half. I did a lot of what he did to get the team in scoring position in the first half.

 

"But I'm left thinking a whole lot more about the plays he didn't make, about the plays that were left on the field, about the times he could have done the smart correct thing with the football and just mentally was not sharp in this game: decision-making issues, protection issues, just issues galore.

 

"You need more out of Josh Allen. And I know that's hard to say based on what he's given you.

 

"But when you look at this game, and that's what I'm talking about, this game, this loss to the Patriots, I thought the biggest problem with the offense was the quarterback."

 

...

 

"He refused to throw hot on several occasions during obvious pressure looks. He didn't have the team sliding in the right direction, just too many miscues. He has to manage that better, both the pre-snap and the post-snap part of pressure, and Josh just played poorly."

 

 

Joe had plenty to say about the defense too. As usual, he gets into a ton of detail.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah the #1 thing plaguing Josh Allen is his decision making.    Which is a function of preparation, not intelligence, IMO.    If he were prepared for what he's seeing he'd be much more efficient with his unreal skillset.

 

But, to me this was something that the Bills should have known he would continue to struggle with.    Ever since 13 seconds game I think he has decided that he is pretty great and doesn't want to put in a lot of hard work at the expense of his offseason joy.   

 

No reason you can't win a SB with a QB who isn't attentive to detail like a Tom Brady..........but you gotta' put weapons around him.    It's the Big Ben model.   Big Ben was a creep so people focus on that but aside from that he just didn't want to live football 24/7/365 and there wasn't anything the Steelers could do about it and he was still a top 5 QB either way so they leaned into it with a steady supply of playmaking talent.

[Sharky7337]

Joe marino lost my trust after edmunds, and then the gabe davis training camp reports

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

32 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Ugh, what a great play design. QB sucked. 3rd and goal.

 

 

 

seems to me that the stuff over on the right was like his second or even third read, and by the time he looked over there, he was getting pressured.