Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[ddaryl]

Just now, oldmanfan said:

The OC is wrong because he expects the QB to read coverages.  OK.

 

 

Dorsey is not the right OC for a QB like Josh IMO. Yes he expects it but is it happening ?

 

I honestly gave my opinion and that is not going to change unless some how it magically fixes itself, but then we will see lots of changes into how we gameplan and scheme which backs my point. Josh can read D's just not at the highest level of other HoF QBs who were masters at the pre-snap read and Dorsey needs to do something differently. Josh does his best when he is allowed to let plays develope. Our OL / pass blocking is an issue which keeps Josh from being Josh. The quick passing game the Bills try to run just does not produce consistent results

When Josh is tasked to make the quick throw we have seen him muscling the ball between 3 defenders many times. Pre snap read should be able to find an open receiver with more space. 

 

[Beck Water]

On 10/24/2023 at 6:54 AM, HardyBoy said:

 

Have they started getting plays in later in the play clock from what you have seen, after the 15 second helmet cutoff?

 

Someone commented on this elsewhere - that it seemed as though the plays were getting in late and on one play, Josh was gesturing as though he hadn't gotten the play right before the cutoff.

[oldmanfan]

36 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Dorsey is not the right OC for a QB like Josh IMO. Yes he expects it but is it happening ?

 

I honestly gave my opinion and that is not going to change unless some how it magically fixes itself, but then we will see lots of changes into how we gameplan and scheme which backs my point. Josh can read D's just not at the highest level of other HoF QBs who were masters at the pre-snap read and Dorsey needs to do something differently. Josh does his best when he is allowed to let plays develope. Our OL / pass blocking is an issue which keeps Josh from being Josh. The quick passing game the Bills try to run just does not produce consistent results

When Josh is tasked to make the quick throw we have seen him muscling the ball between 3 defenders many times. Pre snap read should be able to find an open receiver with more space. 

 

What type of OC does he need then?  

[White Linen]

15 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

My eye have not really seen a lot of mechanical issues with Josh. Not my area of expertise though. Allen QBs will miss passes. 

 

My concerns with Josh are more between his ears and his eyes. He seems to be unprepared and almost going though the motions. I see a lack of the " it" factor. His vision certainly lacks at times as noted by others. 

 

To believe you have this kind of ability is ridiculous.  

[Mango]

4 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

The OC is wrong because he expects the QB to read coverages.  OK.

I am in the minority here, but in general I’ve liked Dorsey this year. 
 

2 things can be true at the same time. KD is going to be a pretty decent OC in this league and KD might not be the right OC for the Bills right now. 

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

He's got a sprained shoulder.  A sprain in his non-throwing shoulder caused his completion % to dip for 4 games in 2020.  There's every reason to think it's impacting him and will for the next 3-4 weeks.  In 2020, Daboll had a game or two where he strongly limited passing attempts, and we just ran ran ran. 

 

Maybe we need that, instead of 41 pass attempts to 24 rushes.

One thing I’m a bit nervous about going forward is that Josh has had 3 injuries to his throwing arm in 3 different years. That’s a lot for a guy with only 6 NFL seasons. 
 

 

[Scott7975]

Yep Josh had a poor game. The entire team also had a poor game. Josh has regressed since Dorsey took over. The rest of the offense is talent light. Josh is thinking too much instead of just playing football. The coaches are in his head. That’s why the processing is slower this year. Too worried about not running. Too worried about turning the ball over. Too worried his guys aren’t going to make the play. Too worried his oline won’t hold. 
 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Someone commented on this elsewhere - that it seemed as though the plays were getting in late and on one play, Josh was gesturing as though he hadn't gotten the play right before the cutoff.

Diggs hinted at this as well.  The comment was along the lines that there was to much substitution going on and it was causing them to get to the LOS late. The announcers also mentioned that the Bills were not snapping the ball until a second was left. So how the hell is Allen supposed to effectively audible and set protection if he only has a few seconds to do it and he's trying to avoid using a TO or getting a delay of game penalty?

 

I wonder if Belicheat and his coaches noticed this on film and employed the looks they did knowing that Allen would not have time to change the play/set the right protections?  We can trash NE all we want but Bill is still the greatest defensive mind in the NFL.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

7 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Wellllll.......I am the one who suggested that Singletary and McKenzie should be equipped with the sort of tall orange fiberglass poles you find affixed to Syracuse fire hydrants in winter.  Yes, sometimes Josh does throw to tightly covered players he trusts, while ignoring open ones he trusts less.

 

I wouldn't want to say that Josh "doesn't see" open receivers, but I think it's pretty inarguable that Josh will pass up open receivers who are short of the sticks in favor of taking a deep shot, sometimes to a pretty well covered receiver downfield.  Sometimes, because that tendency is on film, to a well covered receiver with a DB in position to jump the route and pick him.  He's aggressive, and he has that "arm arrogance".  Sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

It's also a  fact that Josh will tend to respond to pressure by extending the play with his legs, instead of getting the ball out quickly to an underneath option with so much green in front of him they could plant a christmas tree farm.

 

It's a blessing and a curse.  Yes, Josh was 7th in the league in passing yards and Y/A last season, which is top.  Is that good enough?  Mahomes was #1. Josh was also #3 in INT last season.  Is that good enough?  Maybe if we want to win a championship, especially with a depleted defense, we need Josh to "level up".  Which he has inarguably demonstrated HE  CAN DO.

 

I'm having trouble finding that "top 3 in production" stat for last year and this - can you help me?

 

 

I consider total TD's and Total yards to be a great indication of production.  This season he is number one on total TD's and I believe over the last 3 seasons he is also #1.

 

 

2 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Yep Josh had a poor game. The entire team also had a poor game. Josh has regressed since Dorsey took over. The rest of the offense is talent light. Josh is thinking too much instead of just playing football. The coaches are in his head. That’s why the processing is slower this year. Too worried about not running. Too worried about turning the ball over. Too worried his guys aren’t going to make the play. Too worried his oline won’t hold. 
 

 

No, Allen had a poor first half and an excellent 2nd half. That would tell me he had a solid but not great game overall.  Allen led the Bills back from a 2 score deficit in the 4th quarter to take a 3 point lead with less then 2 minutes left only to see our D give up a long TD drive and basically win the game on a walk off TD.

 

 

[Toyo321]

On 10/24/2023 at 7:43 AM, Dopey said:

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

I all the games he has played poorly in,  it has come down to the same three problem areas every single time.

 

1) When he is under pressure he is forced to rush his delivery of the ball he constantly missed the target, it's either over thrown or it is missed and the receiver cant even make an attempt on the ball.  It happened in the Pat's game at least 8 times.

 

2) He is not a good QB when it comes to making the best hot read option and who should get the ball when they are open.  He seriously has an issue reading who is the open receiver on a blitz or a all out breakdown from his OL and he takes off out of the pocket.  He is not escaping and concentrating on making a good throw.   He also did this in the Pat's game.  He made throws that were to receivers that were covered and never should have been targeted.  He is winging the ball like a he is playing on a high school playground with improper mechanic's and bad throwing technique.

 

3) He constantly throws balls to his receivers that are in a less than ideal position for the receiver to make a routine catch attempt,  and the defender knocks the ball down or forces a incompletion.   Many of the Bills receiver have to completely re-adjust their body position to try and make the catch.  The QB should put the ball in the best possible location for the receiver to make the attempted catch.  I know it's impossible to do this all the time but Josh as of late is sorely lacking in this area.

 

Rodgers, Mahomes, Burrow, Hurts and even Tua all have the uncanny ability to put the ball in the absolute perfect spot for the receiver to catch the ball & get YAC.  This is something that the Bills do not accel at.  We can criticize any player when they have a bad game, but when you start making the same old mistakes year after year,  Houston we have a problem. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Toyo321

[Beck Water]

3 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I consider total TD's and Total yards to be a great indication of production.  This season he is number one on total TD's and I believe over the last 3 seasons he is also #1.

 

Ah, OK - but one needs to somehow take turnovers for which he's responsible and yards lost to sacks into account somehow.

[QLBillsFan]

On 10/24/2023 at 4:46 AM, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

Yeah because 1 Williams has shown tremendous maturity ( F Utah nails) .. and 2 his “camp”has somehow decided he’s a generational talent who at the same time is not really demonstrating it on the field 🤷🏻‍♂️

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:33 AM, Billsfan1972 said:

Played lousy, put up 25 points (missed FG too) and dropped fourth down pass.

 

Oh and he's to blame for the Pats last drive too?

 

Maybe not his greatest game, but more then enough to win. 

 

Remember those saying "Just Win Baby"😉

McDs overpaid defense came up empty handed like always 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

10 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Yep Josh had a poor game. The entire team also had a poor game. Josh has regressed since Dorsey took over. The rest of the offense is talent light. Josh is thinking too much instead of just playing football. The coaches are in his head. That’s why the processing is slower this year. Too worried about not running. Too worried about turning the ball over. Too worried his guys aren’t going to make the play. Too worried his oline won’t hold. 
 

 

I don’t think he’s regressed I think he’s just having more games where he and the oline aren’t helpin eachother out.  He had some absolute stinkers in the Daboll days when that was the case as well ala the 6-9 loss to the jags.  Daboll got out when stuff got really hairy in the trenches, he missed the year of saffold and brown playing like garbage at the same time lol. And this year it looks like morse is cooked and Dawkins has taken a step or two back from the Daboll days.  
 

Josh is def gonna have to find ways to improve for sure but he was just as bad if not worse under these conditions in previous years so I wouldn’t say he’s trending downwards 

 

a lot of offenses have been struggling this season but with the great teams which I am sure we were one of pre all those defensive injuries, the defense bails the offense out when needed 

 

5 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Ah, OK - but one needs to somehow take turnovers for which he's responsible and yards lost to sacks into account somehow.

To go further than that, the actual situation of the interception matters a lot too.  A 60 yard bomb on third down that goes for a pick really doesn’t hurt strategically at all and is way more benign than throwing a pick on your own side of the field

 

I think about half of his turnovers have not been very impactful 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

53 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

McDs overpaid defense came up empty handed like always 

They’re really 0-3 getting late game stops the last 3 weeks but got bailed out by the refs against the giants. It’s getting a little ridiculous like I know there’s injuries but you can’t get one of those stops? I think that’s a pretty low bar 

 

only silver lining is we’ve looked pretty decent against the run even missing Ed/Daquan 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Nelius]

The old in between the ears and eyes argument. Something we can all agree on!

 

Josh is doing old people maturity stuff and people think he's a headcase. He'll be alright.

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I don’t think he’s regressed I think he’s just having more games where he and the oline aren’t helpin eachother out.  He had some absolute stinkers in the Daboll days when that was the case as well ala the 6-9 loss to the jags.  Daboll got out when stuff got really hairy in the trenches, he missed the year of saffold and brown playing like garbage at the same time lol. And this year it looks like morse is cooked and Dawkins has taken a step or two back from the Daboll days.  
 

Josh is def gonna have to find ways to improve for sure but he was just as bad if not worse under these conditions in previous years so I wouldn’t say he’s trending downwards 

 

a lot of offenses have been struggling this season but with the great teams which I am sure we were one of pre all those defensive injuries, the defense bails the offense out when needed 

 

To go further than that, the actual situation of the interception matters a lot too.  A 60 yard bomb on third down that goes for a pick really doesn’t hurt strategically at all and is way more benign than throwing a pick on your own side of the field

 

I think about half of his turnovers have not been very impactful 

 

Sorry, I disagree.  Josh has had a bad oline most of his career.  He just use to escape it better.  This year his throws on the run are terrible compared to years past.  He is not making those throws much.  He is not picking up those third and forevers as much.  He is not picking up first downs with his feet much when the play breaks down and he has daylight in front of him.  Not even trying to.  He is also very timid in his throws.  Not taking them.  His balls are not quite the rockets we are used to seeing either.  The coaches have his head all messed up.  That to me is regression.  I don't care what the stats say.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Scott7975

[Scott7975]

For the epa guys...

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

12 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Ah, OK - but one needs to somehow take turnovers for which he's responsible and yards lost to sacks into account somehow.

How damaging have Allen's TO's been this season?  Unlike last year Allen is not turning the ball over in the Red Zone and squandering points.  Nor is Allen turning the ball over in the Bills Red Zone giving away points.  Most of his TO's have been around midfield or effectively "punts".

 

Allen has better then a 2 to 1 TD to TO ratio which is good.  And was Allen responsible for that fumble at the end of the NE game? That counted as a "TO"?  Or what about the INT on what should have been a long completion to Diggs against the Jags?

 

Bottom line is that by any standards Allen has been a remarkably productive QB this season as well as the previous 3 seasons.  And this is in spite of his supposedly not being able to read defenses, see the field, abandoning the pocket to soon and being inaccurate. 

 

BTW, I agree that Allen could be even better in these things but he is already wildly productive so "fixing" the offense would more realistically involve other things, like adding play makers & fixing the O line, then squeezing every ounce of elite out of Allen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

For what it's worth:

 

[CincyBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

For the epa guys...

 

 

So what the explanation?  The defenses the Bills faced in their first 4 games were a lot better then the D's they faced the last 3 games.  Maybe we've been overthinking all of this and the reason for the decline is really this simple:  A significant deterioration in the O line's play; the London effect; and Allen's sore shoulder.