Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[newcam2012]

17 minutes ago, Shortchaz said:

No one questions Josh’s ability to throw the football but if you look at how he often delivers the ball it reveals a part of his game that needs to improve. He throws line drive/dart/bullet passes when an earlier throw would allow him to put some air under the ball and be a more receiver-friendly pass. for this to happen josh has to be able to anticipate what’s going to happen. 
 

we all know josh can play a certain style of football and have success, the issue with that style is it’s not sustainable. 
 

I don’t think he’s way off and hopefully we’re just living through some growing pains. 

Six years of growing pains? 

[White Linen]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

That's his format. I don't know anyone in the business that breaks down play after play for the entire game for fans. At best, analysts pick a couple of plays to illustrate their points. 

 

I think it's fair to say Joe is knowledgeable, very fair, and accurate with his analysis. You are welcome to disagree. As for myself, I find him very credible and listen to him daily. 

 

You really have no evidence he's credible just because he's articulate and "fair". 

 

Gunner Bill is a well respected poster and he believes he's smarter than Allen and wishes he could be in the film room as he's scolded by Joe Brady.  It's getting way out of control here.  

 

As I said, you can film critique every single player.  

[newcam2012]

15 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Are Allen's mechanics being mentioned much? I can't work through 18 pages right now, unfortunately. 

 

I saw his front shoulder flying open on so many throws; many of which sailed. He has a general tendency to throw from an open stance, especially when running the hurry-up and spread. But that's different than what seemed to inform most of his throws that were high and hot. A breakdown in fundamentals. You see it with pitchers all the time.

 

Which Bills QB was it who talked about focusing on "taking a bite out of the hamburger" (in his left hand)? You know, keeping that left shoulder closed as long as possible, and keeping that left hand up around the face. Was it a younger Allen? Or someone from the drought? 

 

Potentially over-rotating/over-throwing to overcompensate for an ailing shoulder?

My eye have not really seen a lot of mechanical issues with Josh. Not my area of expertise though. Allen QBs will miss passes. 

 

My concerns with Josh are more between his ears and his eyes. He seems to be unprepared and almost going though the motions. I see a lack of the " it" factor. His vision certainly lacks at times as noted by others. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by newcam2012

[Shortchaz]

12 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Six years of growing pains? 

I think there’s been a change in the philosophy of the offense this year. 

[Richard Noggin]

17 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

My eye have not really seen a lot of mechanical issues with Josh. Not my area of expertise though. Allen QBs will miss passes. 

 

My concerns with Josh are more between his ears and his eyes. He seems to be unprepared and almost going though the motions. I see a lack of the " it" factor. His vision certainly lacks at times as noted by others. 

 

I'm speaking specifically about this last game, mind you. That left shoulder is really whipping open early when he looks to drive the ball. That pass 37 feet over Gabe Davis' head (that Davis somehow actually could have caught) is just one example. There were at least 3 or 4 others that really took away potential TDs. 

[TheBrownBear]

9 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Okay so Allen is lazy and mentally fragile.  Not that by any objective measure his O line and collection of skill players is worse then just abut any other legit playoff team.  Got it.  And fine I'll buy what you people are selling and whine that Allen is playing poorly this season.  Then explain this:

 

Allen's rank among QB Starters:

 

Yards passing = #6

 

Passing TD's = tied with Mahomes & Tua for #2

 

Total TD's = #1

 

Regular QB Rating = #6

 

QBR = #3

 

If this is Allen with all the "problems" you people are claiming he has then maybe he isn't the problem. 

Yeah, he's clearly a regular Jamarcus Russell!

[SydneyBillsFan]

22 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

This is the first year since his rookie year where he seems to be baffled by the defense’s presnap adjustments and motions, and where he seems to just drift directly into pressure multiple times per game.

 

HE IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK

 

Is this the first year he didn't spend time in the summer with Jordan Palmer?

 

Is it possible that he thought  "my training is complete, I can now spend my entire summer playing golf" - because that's what it looks like.

.

[Royale with Cheese]

22 hours ago, Westside said:

You or anyone else in here know how much”film” he watches! Let’s make up stuff to make Allen sound even worse! This fan base doesn’t deserve to win. I’m more disappointed in how the fans turn on players and coaches so fast. Truly remarkable how hateful some people are!

This fan base doesn’t deserve to win because we criticize the team when they aren’t playing to their expectations?  

Is this the level of sensitivity we are at now?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[CoudyBills]

23 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

He didn't like a lot of things (says Morse played much worse than usual, that Torrance was bad, Spencer Brown allowed two big pressures and Gabe Davis also, that James Cook was "a disaster in pass protection,") etc. He had plenty more criticism of others, as well. So he certainly did not blame it all on Josh by any means. But ...

 

"As I watched this offensive tape, it became very clear to me that Josh Allen really struggled in this game. And I know that nobody ever wants to hear that Josh Allen played poorly, and I'm sure that lots of you are going to yell at me for saying that Josh played poorly, but he did.

 

"Could things have been better around him? Absolutely. Could Ken Dorsey have been a little better in this game? Absolutely.

 

"But I thought the top reason for how the offense performed against New England was the play of Josh Allen. 

 

"Let me give you some themes from what I observed, and I think that as more people study the tape, you're going to see a lot of what I'm sharing here being echoed throughout those who watch film. I thought his processing and decision-making was really off in this game. He had some very frustrating turndowns, especially under pressure. And I thought his whole mental approach was very poor with protections and how he set protections, working away from where the protections were set, not necessarily feeling or sensing or seeing or reacting to pressure schemes correctly based on what New England was giving him.

 

"I thought his tempo was poor. He didn't get through progressions with enough urgency, especially when New England either had pressure or had very obvious route combinations leveraged and his eyes needed to be in different places. He was late to process pressure, I mean they're sending extra guys and it's not affecting the way that he's attacking the play. I thought his trigger was incredibly slow. Once again his average time to throw over 3.15 seconds. That's going to put a lot of stress on your offensive line. And I have plenty of criticism for those guys, but I mean Mac Jones got the ball out in 2.2 seconds, literally a full second quicker. The amount of stress that puts on the offensive line compared to what Josh did is really different.

 

"He absolutely had some accuracy lapses, right? The two misfires to Stefon Diggs, the deep shot, then the outbreaking pattern, missed them. Josh has to get back to taking profits and playing smart football. His average depth of target against New England was 10.6.

 

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

"Not making correct decisions on run-pass options. I mean, honestly minus the quantity of turnovers, I felt a lot of things about Josh Allen that I did in that Jets game in Week One. Thought he was chasing some plays and just not doing the smart correct thing with any level of consistency that's needed to win a football game.

 

"And I'm not talking about Josh Allen not being Josh Allen. that's not what I'm saying. But within the context of a football game, there are certain times where you just need to take the profit, you need to go to the smart place with the football. And Josh Allen didn't do that.

 

"Now, I'm confident this analysis is going to be met with some resistance, some anger at me for daring to say that Josh Allen played poorly, and not pointing enough fingers at Ken Dorsey or enough fingers at being able to trust the offensive line, or weapons or whatever you want to point at.

 

"I watched that game, I studied it in depth, the biggest problem on the offense was 17. ... Josh Allen is not perfect, he has bad games and this was absolutely one of them. Missed so many opportunities. And he did some good, there's no doubt. I enjoyed the three touchdown drives in the second half. I did a lot of what he did to get the team in scoring position in the first half.

 

"But I'm left thinking a whole lot more about the plays he didn't make, about the plays that were left on the field, about the times he could have done the smart correct thing with the football and just mentally was not sharp in this game: decision-making issues, protection issues, just issues galore.

 

"You need more out of Josh Allen. And I know that's hard to say based on what he's given you.

 

"But when you look at this game, and that's what I'm talking about, this game, this loss to the Patriots, I thought the biggest problem with the offense was the quarterback."

 

...

 

"He refused to throw hot on several occasions during obvious pressure looks. He didn't have the team sliding in the right direction, just too many miscues. He has to manage that better, both the pre-snap and the post-snap part of pressure, and Josh just played poorly."

 

 

Joe had plenty to say about the defense too. As usual, he gets into a ton of detail.

 

 

Anyone who disagrees is just a homer.

[Ga boy]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

This fan base doesn’t deserve to win because we criticize a the team when they aren’t playing to their expectations?  

Is this the level of sensitivity we are at now?

Now?  I remember on the radio talk shows with the Coach that when we’d win 17-14, it was like we lost or something.  The Mafia has always been engaged, even when they were just known as fans.

[CincyBillsFan]

9 hours ago, TheBrownBear said:

Yeah, he's clearly a regular Jamarcus Russell!

That's exactly what these posters seem to be saying in their critiques.

 

[ddaryl]

18 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Why can’t he a Brady with pre-snap reads?  What prevents him from doing so?

 

He isn't. Just like 99% of QB that ever play the game don't have that ability at that level.

You act like anyone on the planet can do anything if they just focus. People have different strengths and different abilities, and some people don't have any. It is what it is.

Josh will never be a presnap quick pass QB anywhere near the levels of Brady or Montana IMO

But give Josh time with superior blocking and he will make teams pay. 

[ndirish1978]

Josh is on the record stating he doesn't like to watch film. The second I heard that this offseason I knew we weren't going far.  He also said he doesn't really like to work out with weights all that much because he didn't at all one offseason and he did better on the conditioning drills. Kid got paid and stopped working.

[Andrew Son]

Just now, ndirish1978 said:

Josh is on the record stating he doesn't like to watch film. The second I heard that this offseason I knew we weren't going far.  He also said he doesn't really like to work out with weights all that much because he didn't at all one offseason and he did better on the conditioning drills. Kid got paid and stopped working.

I understand the weights part.  It's like being a pitcher, bulky muscles are not the goal and actually are more of a hinderance.  I believe he does work on his base.

 

The film issue is concerning.  Most of the greats live it and love the grind.

[oldmanfan]

11 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

He isn't. Just like 99% of QB that ever play the game don't have that ability at that level.

You act like anyone on the planet can do anything if they just focus. People have different strengths and different abilities, and some people don't have any. It is what it is.

Josh will never be a presnap quick pass QB anywhere near the levels of Brady or Montana IMO

But give Josh time with superior blocking and he will make teams pay. 

Can he improve on it?  You seriously don't think with study he can't improve?  Come on.  The guy is a great QB, we all know that.  But should he not be expected to work on areas that might be weaker?

[ndirish1978]

Just now, SWATeam said:

I understand the weights part.  It's like being a pitcher, bulky muscles are not the goal and actually are more of a hinderance.  I believe he does work on his base.

 

The film issue is concerning.  Most of the greats live it and love the grind.

 

Maybe he does base work. In that case, I don't think he does himself any favors with how he describes his offseason routine. I'm watching Mahomes in QB on Netflix put his body in crazy training situations to help his muscles perform better on off-platform throws and seeing guys like Peyton stressing how crazy their film viewing habits are and then I'm listening to Josh basically state he uses his offseasons to live like the Dude from the Big Lebowski.

 

[ddaryl]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Can he improve on it?  You seriously don't think with study he can't improve?  Come on.  The guy is a great QB, we all know that.  But should he not be expected to work on areas that might be weaker?

Improve a bit, but he will never excel at it comapred to those who turned that ability into muliple SB appearances and wins

 

Thats my opinion and its why I feel Dorsey is the wtong OC for a QB like Josh

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

It's absurd to say Allen doesn't see the open receivers.  His stats would indicate otherwise or are you saying that all those completions over the last three and a half seasons have been to tightly covered players while he ignores the open ones?

 

Since 2020 Allen has been a top 3 QB in production, including this season.  If pointing this obvious stat out makes me a member of the Josh Allen cult please pass me the cool aid.

 

Wellllll.......I am the one who suggested that Singletary and McKenzie should be equipped with the sort of tall orange fiberglass poles you find affixed to Syracuse fire hydrants in winter.  Yes, sometimes Josh does throw to tightly covered players he trusts, while ignoring open ones he trusts less.

 

I wouldn't want to say that Josh "doesn't see" open receivers, but I think it's pretty inarguable that Josh will pass up open receivers who are short of the sticks in favor of taking a deep shot, sometimes to a pretty well covered receiver downfield.  Sometimes, because that tendency is on film, to a well covered receiver with a DB in position to jump the route and pick him.  He's aggressive, and he has that "arm arrogance".  Sometimes it pays off, and sometimes it doesn't.

 

It's also a  fact that Josh will tend to respond to pressure by extending the play with his legs, instead of getting the ball out quickly to an underneath option with so much green in front of him they could plant a christmas tree farm.

 

It's a blessing and a curse.  Yes, Josh was 7th in the league in passing yards and Y/A last season, which is top.  Is that good enough?  Mahomes was #1. Josh was also #3 in INT last season.  Is that good enough?  Maybe if we want to win a championship, especially with a depleted defense, we need Josh to "level up".  Which he has inarguably demonstrated HE  CAN DO.

 

I'm having trouble finding that "top 3 in production" stat for last year and this - can you help me?

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Beck Water

[oldmanfan]

19 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

Improve a bit, but he will never excel at it comapred to those who turned that ability into muliple SB appearances and wins

 

Thats my opinion and its why I feel Dorsey is the wtong OC for a QB like Josh

The OC is wrong because he expects the QB to read coverages.  OK.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I'm speaking specifically about this last game, mind you. That left shoulder is really whipping open early when he looks to drive the ball. That pass 37 feet over Gabe Davis' head (that Davis somehow actually could have caught) is just one example. There were at least 3 or 4 others that really took away potential TDs. 

 

He's got a sprained shoulder.  A sprain in his non-throwing shoulder caused his completion % to dip for 4 games in 2020.  There's every reason to think it's impacting him and will for the next 3-4 weeks.  In 2020, Daboll had a game or two where he strongly limited passing attempts, and we just ran ran ran. 

 

Maybe we need that, instead of 41 pass attempts to 24 rushes.