Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[newcam2012]

14 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

He didn't like a lot of things (says Morse played much worse than usual, that Torrance was bad, Spencer Brown allowed two big pressures and Gabe Davis also, that James Cook was "a disaster in pass protection,") etc. He had plenty more criticism of others, as well. So he certainly did not blame it all on Josh by any means. But ...

 

"As I watched this offensive tape, it became very clear to me that Josh Allen really struggled in this game. And I know that nobody ever wants to hear that Josh Allen played poorly, and I'm sure that lots of you are going to yell at me for saying that Josh played poorly, but he did.

 

"Could things have been better around him? Absolutely. Could Ken Dorsey have been a little better in this game? Absolutely.

 

"But I thought the top reason for how the offense performed against New England was the play of Josh Allen. 

 

"Let me give you some themes from what I observed, and I think that as more people study the tape, you're going to see a lot of what I'm sharing here being echoed throughout those who watch film. I thought his processing and decision-making was really off in this game. He had some very frustrating turndowns, especially under pressure. And I thought his whole mental approach was very poor with protections and how he set protections, working away from where the protections were set, not necessarily feeling or sensing or seeing or reacting to pressure schemes correctly based on what New England was giving him.

 

"I thought his tempo was poor. He didn't get through progressions with enough urgency, especially when New England either had pressure or had very obvious route combinations leveraged and his eyes needed to be in different places. He was late to process pressure, I mean they're sending extra guys and it's not affecting the way that he's attacking the play. I thought his trigger was incredibly slow. Once again his average time to throw over 3.15 seconds. That's going to put a lot of stress on your offensive line. And I have plenty of criticism for those guys, but I mean Mac Jones got the ball out in 2.2 seconds, literally a full second quicker. The amount of stress that puts on the offensive line compared to what Josh did is really different.

 

"He absolutely had some accuracy lapses, right? The two misfires to Stefon Diggs, the deep shot, then the outbreaking pattern, missed them. Josh has to get back to taking profits and playing smart football. His average depth of target against New England was 10.6.

 

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

"Not making correct decisions on run-pass options. I mean, honestly minus the quantity of turnovers, I felt a lot of things about Josh Allen that I did in that Jets game in Week One. Thought he was chasing some plays and just not doing the smart correct thing with any level of consistency that's needed to win a football game.

 

"And I'm not talking about Josh Allen not being Josh Allen. that's not what I'm saying. But within the context of a football game, there are certain times where you just need to take the profit, you need to go to the smart place with the football. And Josh Allen didn't do that.

 

"Now, I'm confident this analysis is going to be met with some resistance, some anger at me for daring to say that Josh Allen played poorly, and not pointing enough fingers at Ken Dorsey or enough fingers at being able to trust the offensive line, or weapons or whatever you want to point at.

 

"I watched that game, I studied it in depth, the biggest problem on the offense was 17. ... Josh Allen is not perfect, he has bad games and this was absolutely one of them. Missed so many opportunities. And he did some good, there's no doubt. I enjoyed the three touchdown drives in the second half. I did a lot of what he did to get the team in scoring position in the first half.

 

"But I'm left thinking a whole lot more about the plays he didn't make, about the plays that were left on the field, about the times he could have done the smart correct thing with the football and just mentally was not sharp in this game: decision-making issues, protection issues, just issues galore.

 

"You need more out of Josh Allen. And I know that's hard to say based on what he's given you.

 

"But when you look at this game, and that's what I'm talking about, this game, this loss to the Patriots, I thought the biggest problem with the offense was the quarterback."

 

...

 

"He refused to throw hot on several occasions during obvious pressure looks. He didn't have the team sliding in the right direction, just too many miscues. He has to manage that better, both the pre-snap and the post-snap part of pressure, and Josh just played poorly."

 

 

Joe had plenty to say about the defense too. As usual, he gets into a ton of detail.

 

 

Really good info and read here.  Thanks.

 

I'm a really big Allen fan. In an earlier post, I mentioned that Allen almost seems "Michael Vick" like. Joe's comments almost seem to confirm this. I feel like Allen is not prepared, going through the motions, and totally relying on his physical tools. 

 

The other option is Allen cannot read defenses very well. He's played in the league for many years. What Joe is talking about is pretty basic stuff for a QB.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by newcam2012

[Mango]

2 hours ago, Since1981 said:

And if Josh won’t check to the hot or just has bad natural visual ability? OC should game plan around this limitation. Not game plan him straight into his natural limitation!

 

my god, Baltimore built their entire offense around Lamar’s +/-

What does game planning around not looking at your second, third, or blitz beater  look like?

 

I am not trying to be snarky. But I am not sure what you’re talking about, that’s a very bland statement. How does one game plan around a QB who struggles to find an outlet when the pass rush closes in?

 

At some point you have to get better at it. Every QB in the league can sit back and throw darts vs air. Every. Single. One. 

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Really good info and read here.  Thanks.

 

I'm a really big Allen fan. In an earlier post, I mentioned that Allen almost seems "Michael Vick." Joe's comments almost seem to confirm this. I feel like Allen is not prepared, going through the motions, and totally relying on his physical tools. 

 

The other option is Allen cannot read defenses very well. He's played in the league for many years. What Joe is talking about is pretty basic stuff for a QB.

 

 

I think it’s chicken and the egg. Allen has been better a better athlete than most guys he’s faced on defense.

 

His strength, mobility, and arm talent have masked some play identification issues.

 

His ability to make absolutely spectacular plays has likely reinforced some not great traits. 
 

He can figure it out no different than he figured out his mechanics. But he has to do it. 

 

[Since1981]

Not focused on one game or blitz pass.
 

I’m saying, Josh has faults. Lamar has faults. Jackson’s OC HC GM built entire plans around his strength and weakness. Our guys? Not so much. “Don’t run Josh. No speedster for his arm (brown). No WR2. Stop 17 QB option rollouts” etc 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Since1981

[DapperCam]

I still don’t understand why anybody cares what Joe Marino says. How does he even know what the “hot route” in the Bills playbook is? Maybe some plays don’t have a hot route by design. A freelance journalist and podcaster is not somebody whose analysis I’m going to take as gospel.

 

Bottom line is none of us really know what Allen’s reads are and who he is supposed to be going to with the ball in different scenarios.

[newcam2012]

4 minutes ago, Mango said:

What does game planning around not looking at your second, third, or blitz beater  look like?

 

I am not trying to be snarky. But I am not sure what you’re talking about, that’s a very bland statement. How does one game plan around a QB who struggles to find an outlet when the pass rush closes in?

 

At some point you have to get better at it. Every QB in the league can sit back and throw darts vs air. Every. Single. One. 

I think it’s chicken and the egg. Allen has been better a better athlete than most guys he’s faced on defense.

 

His strength, mobility, and arm talent have masked some play identification issues.

 

His ability to make absolutely spectacular plays has likely reinforced some not great traits. 
 

He can figure it out no different than he figured out his mechanics. But he has to do it. 

 

Perhaps and perhaps not. I mean after 5 plus years I think we have a pretty accurate picture of who Allen is. Sure, there's always room for improvement and hopefully that happens. There is no guarantee either way. 

 

What's  concerning is Allen seems to be unprepared. This is really evident the last three games. The term sleep walking has been used by many. I can't disagree with the terminology. The Bills need more from their elite QB. 

 

Almost seems like Allen has lost confidence in his players, coaches, and perhaps himself. The winning attitude, culture, and swagger seems to be lost. 

 

We are seven games into the season and the Bills are about to face an extremely difficult schedule. They are playing poor football and something needs to change pretty quickly. 

[Mango]

2 hours ago, muppy said:

WORD.

 

We want Greatness every week. We expect he to be great every single week. The hopes and dreams of a fan base hang in the balance. But he is a human FCOL

 

The importance of all  of this is not life and death. But it would be nice to have some answers. I think as someone else stated It is time for we fans to Buckle Up and enjoy the ride every week.  You'll go batty with conjecture. or maybe that's just me. I have faith in Josh Allen. period. Gotta have faith.

 

GO BILLS

 

Everything isn’t the QB’s fault all the time. But QB’s are the only player on the field who is in charge of distributing the ball to anybody else, calling the play, and setting protections. 
 

In season you will rarely of ever get a new RT. Or more explosive WR. But your QB can make a number of decisions every play that make those things in easier.

 

Don’t get me wrong. WR is a problem. Spencer Brown is an issue. But we have to play around that for the next few months and the QB has more control than anybody to do that. 
 

For me it’s easy to say “Tyrod sucked at a,b,c” but I always reference players of Josh’s caliber as “he needs to get better at….”.

 

[Since1981]

29 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

 

Not focused on one game or blitz pass.
 

I’m saying, Josh has faults. Lamar has faults. Jackson’s OC HC GM built entire plans around his strength and weakness. Our guys? Not so much. “Don’t run Josh. No speedster for his arm (brown). No WR2. Stop 17 QB option rollouts” etc 

 

MIA, BAL are built around strength/ weakness (QB). Not Bills. exact opposite—> No run Josh. No rollout option. No speedster Brown (match arm), no WR2….

 

watching Josh be neutered in public is unpleasant and getting old, fast. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Since1981

[Shortchaz]

30 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I still don’t understand why anybody cares what Joe Marino says. How does he even know what the “hot route” in the Bills playbook is? Maybe some plays don’t have a hot route by design. A freelance journalist and podcaster is not somebody whose analysis I’m going to take as gospel.

 

Bottom line is none of us really know what Allen’s reads are and who he is supposed to be going to with the ball in different scenarios.

Heck, josh doesn’t even know 

[Reed83HOF]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I suspect if the coaching staff had an issue with his blitz handling they would have addressed it by now. He has never once been a "hot route" kind of QB. He can lean on his elite physical abilities to create explosive plays in those situations and his escaping the blitz takes a coverage defender completely out of the play which creates running lanes and advantages downfield.

 

To use the same example play, in my mind (and I believe the coaches' minds) it is more likely that we will score a TD with him rolling out than it is if he hits Shakir for a 3 yard gain on that play. 3rd and 2 in a goalline situation is not really a favorable look for our offense. Allen rolling out of the pocket towards Diggs in single man coverage at the front corner of the endzone on 2nd down is a very favorable look. If we want to celebrate the successes that those plays often bring, we have to live with the failures too.

Ty Dunne had an article awhile back with Farve talking about his career and Allen; when he brought up points about why he did something unconventional or went to make a near impossible throw - his response was because I can make the play. Total gunslinger mentality and Josh is wired that same way

[Straight Hucklebuck]

I thought he made a hot read to Diggs on the sliding touchdown.

 

Patriots sent 8 and he got it there. 
 

He did bypass Knox twice on underneath throws for 1st downs, one time in favor of a sideline throw to Diggs.

 

But isolate on his throws to Kincaid, Josh made several nice reads I thought, nice anticipation on the throw near the goal line off the Poyer punch out. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Straight Hucklebuck

[newcam2012]

42 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

I still don’t understand why anybody cares what Joe Marino says. How does he even know what the “hot route” in the Bills playbook is? Maybe some plays don’t have a hot route by design. A freelance journalist and podcaster is not somebody whose analysis I’m going to take as gospel.

 

Bottom line is none of us really know what Allen’s reads are and who he is supposed to be going to with the ball in different scenarios.

Joe is one of the most knowledgeable football guys out there when it comes to the Bills. 

 

He's not always right and of course he doesn't know everything. He definitely is very fair with his analysis. At times, I feel like he's not critical enough. I wouldn't dismiss his criticisms as being inaccurate or not meaningful. 

[Shortchaz]

No one questions Josh’s ability to throw the football but if you look at how he often delivers the ball it reveals a part of his game that needs to improve. He throws line drive/dart/bullet passes when an earlier throw would allow him to put some air under the ball and be a more receiver-friendly pass. for this to happen josh has to be able to anticipate what’s going to happen. 
 

we all know josh can play a certain style of football and have success, the issue with that style is it’s not sustainable. 
 

I don’t think he’s way off and hopefully we’re just living through some growing pains. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Shortchaz

[White Linen]

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

Joe is one of the most knowledgeable football guys out there when it comes to the Bills. 

 

He's not always right and of course he doesn't know everything. He definitely is very fair with his analysis. At times, I feel like he's not critical enough. I wouldn't dismiss his criticisms as being inaccurate or not meaningful. 

 

My issue with him is we can't see what he's talking about. We're only listening to him.  We never get an opportunity to validate his thoughts in our minds, with our eyes.  I know for sure,  you can look at every negative play of Mahomes and say, he should have did - blank.  

[Mango]

19 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

MIA, BAL are built around strength/ weakness (QB). Not Bills. exact opposite—> No run Josh. No rollout option. No speedster Brown (match arm), no WR2….

 

watching Josh be neutered in public is unpleasant and getting old, fast. 

2 things:

 

1. The post above is you responding to yourself.

 

2. I don’t buy the Allen is being neutered bit. The entire premise has to throw out 5 years of history with Dorsey. KD has been coaching Allen since 2019. In 2022 Allen had more rushing attempts than any other year he played. And he did it in 16 games. In order to get to the finish line that Dorsey is neutering Allen, you have to ignore the fact that he coached Allen on every other rushing attempt since he was named the day 1 starter. And after all of that Dorsey woke up one day in the year of the lord 2023 and said “fork it; all that running I’ve been working with you on. Forget it. It’s over. Don’t do it ever again. Go to the cafeteria, get a knife, and bring me your balls. Consider yourself neutered”.

 

That is a lot of hoops to jump through. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Everyone, you want a franchise QB?? This is the deal. 
 

when quarter billion guy plays great … bills  win, qb gets the credit. 
 

when bills lose he gets the blame and should have played better. 
 

This is how it needs to be. 
 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[newcam2012]

21 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

MIA, BAL are built around strength/ weakness (QB). Not Bills. exact opposite—> No run Josh. No rollout option. No speedster Brown (match arm), no WR2….

 

watching Josh be neutered in public is unpleasant and getting old, fast. 

It's really a failure of Beane and McD. They have repeatedly failed to build up a reliable oline and get explosive offensive weapons. They continued to use Davis as a WR2 despite showing his deficiencies. They continued to use Brown at the tackle position despite his deficiencies. They've played revolving doors with the WR3/4 positions with little success. They went with a rookie OC who was learning on the job when the Bills are in win it all mode. They continued to stay with Dorsey despite his limitations. They continued to go back to the well with McD. Despite his playoff failures. A 4-5 record and a 44% win percentage . 13 seconds and his team throttled by Cinci in his most recent playoff history. 

 

The Bills continue to run it back with the same coaching staff and many of the same players. Yet, most of us fans expect different results. 

[Richard Noggin]

Are Allen's mechanics being mentioned much? I can't work through 18 pages right now, unfortunately. 

 

I saw his front shoulder flying open on so many throws; many of which sailed. He has a general tendency to throw from an open stance, especially when running the hurry-up and spread. But that's different than what seemed to inform most of his throws that were high and hot. A breakdown in fundamentals. You see it with pitchers all the time.

 

Which Bills QB was it who talked about focusing on "taking a bite out of the hamburger" (in his left hand)? You know, keeping that left shoulder closed as long as possible, and keeping that left hand up around the face. Was it a younger Allen? Or someone from the drought? 

 

Potentially over-rotating/over-throwing to overcompensate for an ailing shoulder?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Richard Noggin

[Since1981]

We don’t know. but a difference in O in 12 months = Dorsey. Daboll was more independent from McDermott. Dorsey benefited from carryover. That carryover is draining away to “The McDorsey slow start, no run Josh, no creativity offense”.

[newcam2012]

9 minutes ago, White Linen said:

 

My issue with him is we can't see what he's talking about. We're only listening to him.  We never get an opportunity to validate his thoughts in our minds, with our eyes.  I know for sure,  you can look at every negative play of Mahomes and say, he should have did - blank.  

That's his format. I don't know anyone in the business that breaks down play after play for the entire game for fans. At best, analysts pick a couple of plays to illustrate their points. 

 

I think it's fair to say Joe is knowledgeable, very fair, and accurate with his analysis. You are welcome to disagree. As for myself, I find him very credible and listen to him daily. 

[Mikie2times]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

No unless you have an alternative set of Allen's stats then I've seen.

 

BTW I re-watched all the Bills offensive drives from the 2nd half and Allen was outstanding even in the face of serious pressure.  Watch the TD throws to Diggs & Cook for a sample.

 

You do realize stats can be accomplished in many ways