Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[gobills404]

6 minutes ago, MikePJ76 said:

Allen has been beaten up in the last 3 games.  I am honestly surprised he is still upright.  A couple of those shots in the last two weeks he has taken were really violent hits where he was completely exposed.

 

If he makes mistakes I imagine it is because he is not trusting things around him whether that's the line, the receivers, backs, tight ends or the play call..It probably all is leading to hesitation.  I have to think it starts with the shots he has been taking.

 

With Philly, KC, Dallas and miami on the schedule still if this continues he is going to miss time.  Those teams are big, physical and fast on defense.  

 

The Bills offense needs to go out and have a great game thursday and then regroup and make teams scared of their ability to score in bunches again.

 

If he doesn’t trust the line then that’s all the more reason to stop holding on to the ball and get it out quicker 

[RobbRiddick]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

This is a great take, depressing but great. Maybe the stuff about the film study is true, maybe he was doing more of that back when he was dominant, maybe Daboll went through it with him and made it easier the understand.  I have no idea, I'm not a film study guy. All I know is that the offense is making everything look difficult now, even when they score, they don't look fluid or in rhythm at all. It's actually tiring watching them. 

[UKBillFan]

45 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Well that's an interesting comment. 

 

My biggest concern is Josh saying "Who knows?" A bit like McDermott's comment after Pats, where he didn't know where things are going wrong. Doesn't fill me with confidence they're going to sort the issue out.

[RichRiderBills]

I am going to take issue w Marino.

 

First , I caught the podcast and for an All 22 review it was missing more constructive breakdowns and specific critique. 

 

On Allen: he did play lousy at times, but literally brilliant in other times. Marino tipped his hat that way, but I think putting the loss on JA was silly. 

 

22 second half points while sputtering on a couple drives terribly ( cough Knox drop) was impressive. A near game winning drive in the final few minutes leaving under 2 minutes to play , w/ one of the worst offenses in the NFL needing to score a TD to win was woeful....dog poo stuff by this D. 

 

I really wanted more All 22 breakdowns on what went wrong. Especially on that crap big gain on the last Pats drive, etc ..

 

His 22 breakdowns are not great. Half ass even. I know Marino is forced to condense but should be more than about snap counts. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by RichRiderBills

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, UKBillFan said:

 

My biggest concern is Josh saying "Who knows?" A bit like McDermott's comment after Pats, where he didn't know where things are going wrong. Doesn't fill me with confidence they're going to sort the issue out.

I'd have to actually hear his tone of voice.

[Big Turk]

48 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Well that's an interesting comment. 

 

Maybe he should be able to recognize where he should be looking to throw the ball on a blitz like he would have been taught in HS football more? You know...start your progression on the proper side of the field and throw it to the open guy instead of always starting the progression with the side of the field where Diggs is lined up?

3 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

My biggest concern is Josh saying "Who knows?" A bit like McDermott's comment after Pats, where he didn't know where things are going wrong. Doesn't fill me with confidence they're going to sort the issue out.

 

If the answer is he knows it has to do with film study and he doesn't want to do more film study then perhaps it is because he knows the issue but is unwilling to do anything to fix it?

Edited October 24, 2023 by Big Turk

[par73]

Allen in his 6th year, and still playing like a rookie or a 2nd year QB in many instances. Makes one wonder about those who suggest he is not a fan of game tape or studying.

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Maybe he should be able to recognize where he should be looking to throw the ball on a blitz like he would have been taught in HS football more? You know...start your progression on the proper side of the field and throw it to the open guy instead of always starting the progression with the side of the field where Diggs is lined up?

 

If the answer is he knows it has to do with film study and he doesn't want to do more film study then perhaps it is because he knows the issue but is unwilling to do anything to fix it?

 

Then it's down to the coaching. Because if they feel the answer is Josh needing to watch more film then they need to tell him to do it or else they'll bench him for Kyle.

 

Perhaps they don't. Perhaps they feel the reason behind it is more complex than Josh supposedly being lazy and/or distracted.

[90sBills]

5 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

How does he have half as many runs as years past then? That is more than just getting in his head about sliding. If that was the case he would maybe half 20% less runs but not half as many. As @Big Turk pointed out, we are taking the league's most physically gifted and dominant QB and turning him into Justin Herbert. And now we are getting LA Chargers results. 

He’s about where Mahomes’ rushing attempts are. You want your elite qb to beat teams with his arm and mind not his legs. He isn’t a rb. Mahomes maximizes his rushing attempts by picking up chunks of yards on crucial plays. There’s no reason Allen can’t do this and no reason the coaching staff wouldn’t want him to do this. They just want him to avoid contact as much as possible. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

3 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

He’s about where Mahomes’ rushing attempts are. You want your elite qb to beat teams with his arm and mind not his legs. He isn’t a rb. Mahomes maximizes his rushing attempts by picking up chunks of yards on crucial plays. There’s no reason Allen can’t do this and no reason the coaching staff wouldn’t want him to do this. They just want him to avoid contact as much as possible. 

he’s not Mahomes. Let’s stop comparing him to Mahomes. If he could read the field consistently like  Mahomes he would have shown us that by years six already.

 

Allen has other tools in his tool bag. Might as well let him use those as well.

[CincyBillsFan]

50 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Well that's an interesting comment. 

Well if you're looking for reasons to be pessimistic just consider how the Bills coaching/management brain trust may be well on their way to ruining Allen. 

 

Instead of a forceful personality like DaBoll, who was willing to get in the trenches and argue with McD about what the O should be, we have a compliant OC who is faithfully executing the McD vision of how an offense should compliment his defense.  So the guy that benched Tyrod Taylor to give Peterman a shot in 2017 and then decided that Allen wasn't ready to start in 2018 but Peterman was is now setting the strategic mission for Allen and the offense.  I've got a bad feeling that this will not end well for the Bills.

 

One last observation.  Remember in the 2nd quarter of the 2021 KC playoff game when the Bills got the ball after a punt at midfield and they ran it three straight times and didn't get the 1st down?  That always bothered me and I suspect that what happened there was that McD yelled at DaBoll for not doing enough (running the ball) to protect his D from Mahomes while DaBoll was arguing that his responsibility is to score.  I will go to my grave believing those play calls by DaBoll were a big F you to McD in that game.

 

 

 

 

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I think the “Josh is lazy,” narrative may be true. 
 

Add lazy to mentally fragile and this is what you get. 

Not to be pedantic, but at least for me I when I talk about Allen I don’t think he stinks, and I don’t think he’s lazy. I do think he could be better in a few areas that would help him and the team level up. 
 

Fitz sucked at some things like accuracy. But Allen can be better. Not sure if that makes sense. 

[BananaB]

It’s funny everyone being so critical about slow starts. Yeah it has sucked but all the pointing fingers are at Josh. 
 

Giants game they didn’t score until the 4th quarter, read that a lot. Well our first two drives were cut short because the DBs legs got caught up in our WRs. Both looked like they would have been big plays. Then they had Gabes fumble on the third. Then I think the pick which Josh can take sole responsibility for but not really the rest. We had two missed FGs that game right? In the third I remember us having the ball once and I think the drive was 10 or 12 minutes and led to a 4th quarter Td. Then followed up by another Td and the last drive was us trying to kill clock. 
 

Well they scored 3 points in the first half last game, read that a lot. The INt was Joshs fault again but the missed FG and the Td getting negated wasn’t. Would have been tied at half if not for those miscues.  They punted once all game, had another drive stall on 4th down because of a dropped pass. They scored 25 points and left the field up 3 with 2 minutes left.   
 

Rarely ever going to be a perfect game of football but that’s how a lot of people on this board expect Josh to play. 
 

Lmao. Some people going on about how much work he puts in, like they actually know. Yeah he’s been more in the public’s eye and cashing in on a few things, how do you actually know he’s done less than his usual because of it? Gimme a break. So ***** stupid. 

[Big Turk]

8 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

He’s about where Mahomes’ rushing attempts are. You want your elite qb to beat teams with his arm and mind not his legs. He isn’t a rb. Mahomes maximizes his rushing attempts by picking up chunks of yards on crucial plays. There’s no reason Allen can’t do this and no reason the coaching staff wouldn’t want him to do this. They just want him to avoid contact as much as possible. 

 

Mahomes has more...33 on the year, he is running more than ever. Allen had 124 rushes last year to Mahomes 66, almost double. Now Mahomes has more than Allen. That isn't maximizing anything, especially when a bunch of Allen's "runs" have come on QB sneaks and the final failed lateral attempt last game counted as a run.   

[par73]

Taking the run out of his game is depriving him of his biggest asset as a QB-- huge threat that other teams need to respect.

[Low Positive]

29 minutes ago, RichRiderBills said:

I am going to take issue w Marino.

 

First , I caught the podcast and for an All 22 review it was missing more constructive breakdowns and specific critique. 

 

On Allen: he did play lousy at times, but literally brilliant in other times. Marino tipped his hat that way, but I think putting the loss on JA was silly. 

 

22 second half points while sputtering on a couple drives terribly ( cough Knox drop) was impressive. A near game winning drive in the final few minutes leaving under 2 minutes to play , w/ one of the worst offenses in the NFL needing to score a TD to win was woeful....dog poo stuff by this D. 

 

I really wanted more All 22 breakdowns on what went wrong. Especially on that crap big gain on the last Pats drive, etc ..

 

His 22 breakdowns are not great. Half ass even. I know Marino is forced to condense but should be more about snap counts. 

I just went and watched the damn play on the all 22. I don't really know what I'm looking at, but here goes. It's was not at all how I remember it. The Pats brought Douglas in motion. The BIlls only rushed four. Mac looked off Bernard (got him to lean the other way for a split second) and then flipped the ball to Stevenson in space. If anyone still cares, he threw it from the 18 and Stevenson caught it at the 20 but at the point the pass was released the center was only one yard downfield. The play was really well designed because Stevenson had three blockers (Henry, Bourne and Douglas). Bourne and Douglas rode Taron Johnson completely out of the play. Stevenson got 10 yards before anyone even touched him. He cut back inside to avoid Dane Jackson and got Jordan Phillips to wiff on a tackle at the 32. You know what happened after that.

Edited October 24, 2023 by FrenchConnection

[muppy]

4 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

LMAO. Since I watched the game, I did not need anybody to tell me that JA17 had a "bad" game; it was very obvious. 😉

Granted. It's the WHY we are all gripping over. A bad game is a bad game. When Josh has a few of those in a season the fan base is going to implode.

 

The crux of the matter  again is the Why.  Worthy of discussion but so much conjecture. JUST FIX IT. Winning cures most everything right? right.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

20 minutes ago, Mango said:

Not to be pedantic, but at least for me I when I talk about Allen I don’t think he stinks, and I don’t think he’s lazy. I do think he could be better in a few areas that would help him and the team level up. 
 

Fitz sucked at some things like accuracy. But Allen can be better. Not sure if that makes sense. 

 

I think its possible he's a great player... i think its also possible he's not playing that well at the moment.  

 

Doesn't mean he won't again, doesn't mean he has reached some level of cap or something.  

 

It's sort of the nature of sports... You can break everything down to stats, numbers, whatever you want... The patriots have the worst offense etc.  Well on Sunday they played well.  Players made tough catches, mac was more accurate, guys were breaking tackles, they seemed to actually believe.  You can try and figure out why that was - but it could be simply a good week of practice, or just a good day at the office.  

[PromoTheRobot]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

He didn't like a lot of things (says Morse played much worse than usual, that Torrance was bad, Spencer Brown allowed two big pressures and Gabe Davis also, that James Cook was "a disaster in pass protection,") etc. He had plenty more criticism of others, as well. So he certainly did not blame it all on Josh by any means. But ...

 

"As I watched this offensive tape, it became very clear to me that Josh Allen really struggled in this game. And I know that nobody ever wants to hear that Josh Allen played poorly, and I'm sure that lots of you are going to yell at me for saying that Josh played poorly, but he did.

 

"Could things have been better around him? Absolutely. Could Ken Dorsey have been a little better in this game? Absolutely.

 

"But I thought the top reason for how the offense performed against New England was the play of Josh Allen. 

 

"Let me give you some themes from what I observed, and I think that as more people study the tape, you're going to see a lot of what I'm sharing here being echoed throughout those who watch film. I thought his processing and decision-making was really off in this game. He had some very frustrating turndowns, especially under pressure. And I thought his whole mental approach was very poor with protections and how he set protections, working away from where the protections were set, not necessarily feeling or sensing or seeing or reacting to pressure schemes correctly based on what New England was giving him.

 

"I thought his tempo was poor. He didn't get through progressions with enough urgency, especially when New England either had pressure or had very obvious route combinations leveraged and his eyes needed to be in different places. He was late to process pressure, I mean they're sending extra guys and it's not affecting the way that he's attacking the play. I thought his trigger was incredibly slow. Once again his average time to throw over 3.15 seconds. That's going to put a lot of stress on your offensive line. And I have plenty of criticism for those guys, but I mean Mac Jones got the ball out in 2.2 seconds, literally a full second quicker. The amount of stress that puts on the offensive line compared to what Josh did is really different.

 

"He absolutely had some accuracy lapses, right? The two misfires to Stefon Diggs, the deep shot, then the outbreaking pattern, missed them. Josh has to get back to taking profits and playing smart football. His average depth of target against New England was 10.6.

 

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

"Not making correct decisions on run-pass options. I mean, honestly minus the quantity of turnovers, I felt a lot of things about Josh Allen that I did in that Jets game in Week One. Thought he was chasing some plays and just not doing the smart correct thing with any level of consistency that's needed to win a football game.

 

"And I'm not talking about Josh Allen not being Josh Allen. that's not what I'm saying. But within the context of a football game, there are certain times where you just need to take the profit, you need to go to the smart place with the football. And Josh Allen didn't do that.

 

"Now, I'm confident this analysis is going to be met with some resistance, some anger at me for daring to say that Josh Allen played poorly, and not pointing enough fingers at Ken Dorsey or enough fingers at being able to trust the offensive line, or weapons or whatever you want to point at.

 

"I watched that game, I studied it in depth, the biggest problem on the offense was 17. ... Josh Allen is not perfect, he has bad games and this was absolutely one of them. Missed so many opportunities. And he did some good, there's no doubt. I enjoyed the three touchdown drives in the second half. I did a lot of what he did to get the team in scoring position in the first half.

 

"But I'm left thinking a whole lot more about the plays he didn't make, about the plays that were left on the field, about the times he could have done the smart correct thing with the football and just mentally was not sharp in this game: decision-making issues, protection issues, just issues galore.

 

"You need more out of Josh Allen. And I know that's hard to say based on what he's given you.

 

"But when you look at this game, and that's what I'm talking about, this game, this loss to the Patriots, I thought the biggest problem with the offense was the quarterback."

 

...

 

"He refused to throw hot on several occasions during obvious pressure looks. He didn't have the team sliding in the right direction, just too many miscues. He has to manage that better, both the pre-snap and the post-snap part of pressure, and Josh just played poorly."

 

 

Joe had plenty to say about the defense too. As usual, he gets into a ton of detail.

 

 

 

Josh wasn't his best, but when he left the field the Bills were winning by 3. Josh didn't let the Patsies march down for a TD.

[oldmanfan]

6 hours ago, ddaryl said:

If Josh has time to let plays develop he can pick apart teams. Its the quick passing game up tempo Offense that most of the NFL uses that is not Josh's strength IMO. Josh is never going to be a Brady who was a master at pre snap reads

Receivers have more time to get speration with a stronger OL and pass blocking in general. Josh can find open receivers better. 

Why can’t he a Brady with pre-snap reads?  What prevents him from doing so?