Joe Marino says all-22 Review shows Josh deserves a lot of blame for Pats Loss

[Thurman#1]

 

 

 

He didn't like a lot of things (says Morse played much worse than usual, that Torrance was bad, Spencer Brown allowed two big pressures and Gabe Davis also, that James Cook was "a disaster in pass protection,") etc. He had plenty more criticism of others, as well. So he certainly did not blame it all on Josh by any means. But ...

 

"As I watched this offensive tape, it became very clear to me that Josh Allen really struggled in this game. And I know that nobody ever wants to hear that Josh Allen played poorly, and I'm sure that lots of you are going to yell at me for saying that Josh played poorly, but he did.

 

"Could things have been better around him? Absolutely. Could Ken Dorsey have been a little better in this game? Absolutely.

 

"But I thought the top reason for how the offense performed against New England was the play of Josh Allen. 

 

"Let me give you some themes from what I observed, and I think that as more people study the tape, you're going to see a lot of what I'm sharing here being echoed throughout those who watch film. I thought his processing and decision-making was really off in this game. He had some very frustrating turndowns, especially under pressure. And I thought his whole mental approach was very poor with protections and how he set protections, working away from where the protections were set, not necessarily feeling or sensing or seeing or reacting to pressure schemes correctly based on what New England was giving him.

 

"I thought his tempo was poor. He didn't get through progressions with enough urgency, especially when New England either had pressure or had very obvious route combinations leveraged and his eyes needed to be in different places. He was late to process pressure, I mean they're sending extra guys and it's not affecting the way that he's attacking the play. I thought his trigger was incredibly slow. Once again his average time to throw over 3.15 seconds. That's going to put a lot of stress on your offensive line. And I have plenty of criticism for those guys, but I mean Mac Jones got the ball out in 2.2 seconds, literally a full second quicker. The amount of stress that puts on the offensive line compared to what Josh did is really different.

 

"He absolutely had some accuracy lapses, right? The two misfires to Stefon Diggs, the deep shot, then the outbreaking pattern, missed them. Josh has to get back to taking profits and playing smart football. His average depth of target against New England was 10.6.

 

"There were issues with Josh Allen not getting the team out of bad run looks. Another situation where they're trying to run the ball to a side of the formation where there's four Patriots players for two Bills offensive linemen to block; you can't run the play.

 

"Not making correct decisions on run-pass options. I mean, honestly minus the quantity of turnovers, I felt a lot of things about Josh Allen that I did in that Jets game in Week One. Thought he was chasing some plays and just not doing the smart correct thing with any level of consistency that's needed to win a football game.

 

"And I'm not talking about Josh Allen not being Josh Allen. that's not what I'm saying. But within the context of a football game, there are certain times where you just need to take the profit, you need to go to the smart place with the football. And Josh Allen didn't do that.

 

"Now, I'm confident this analysis is going to be met with some resistance, some anger at me for daring to say that Josh Allen played poorly, and not pointing enough fingers at Ken Dorsey or enough fingers at being able to trust the offensive line, or weapons or whatever you want to point at.

 

"I watched that game, I studied it in depth, the biggest problem on the offense was 17. ... Josh Allen is not perfect, he has bad games and this was absolutely one of them. Missed so many opportunities. And he did some good, there's no doubt. I enjoyed the three touchdown drives in the second half. I did a lot of what he did to get the team in scoring position in the first half.

 

"But I'm left thinking a whole lot more about the plays he didn't make, about the plays that were left on the field, about the times he could have done the smart correct thing with the football and just mentally was not sharp in this game: decision-making issues, protection issues, just issues galore.

 

"You need more out of Josh Allen. And I know that's hard to say based on what he's given you.

 

"But when you look at this game, and that's what I'm talking about, this game, this loss to the Patriots, I thought the biggest problem with the offense was the quarterback."

 

...

 

"He refused to throw hot on several occasions during obvious pressure looks. He didn't have the team sliding in the right direction, just too many miscues. He has to manage that better, both the pre-snap and the post-snap part of pressure, and Josh just played poorly."

 

 

Joe had plenty to say about the defense too. As usual, he gets into a ton of detail.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Thurman#1

[mannc]

I really like what Marino has been doing lately.  Definitely a must-listen.

[GunnerBill]

There is no doubt Josh deserves blame. Will watch the video to see if I agree with "a lot" but definitely some. The execution mistakes on offense were brutal and Josh was responsible for some of them. 

[jlgarsh]

It's like 25% Josh, 25% others on the offense, and 50% on the coaching. They've coached him so much nor to take off that he's overthinking the simple stuff. It's like he's a corvette but they want him to be a civic. Sure, the civic is reliable, but the corvette was what was special.

[Dopey]

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, jlgarsh said:

It's like 25% Josh, 25% others on the offense, and 50% on the coaching. They've coached him so much nor to take off that he's overthinking the simple stuff. It's like he's a corvette but they want him to be a civic. Sure, the civic is reliable, but the corvette was what was special.

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Allen to Chicago for first and third overall, first in 2025 and 26.

 

Draft Williams and Harrison.

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

But I thought it would all be fixed by firing Dorsey?  And getting more creative?  Josh can do no wrong....I thought

 

I listened this morning and it was great, it explained why the Bills got no pressure.....2.2s for Jones to throw the ball, it explained why Dorian Williams got benched...the Pats targeted him.   

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Dopey said:

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

 

THIS. That blitz on the drive that Bass missed the FG.... think it was on 2nd down.... You didn't need to be Tom Brady to see that the Pats might blitz on that play. They were showing you blitz. You have to know before it comes where your hot is and as soon as the ball is in your hands it needs to be gone again. I just do not understand what Josh was thinking on that play. It's where I would love to be in the film room with him and Joe Brady talking through that. What did you see? Why did you not throw the hot? 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Dopey said:

Dan Orlovski showed at least three clips where the hot read was open on a blitz and Josh ignored them. There’s a lot of people that are not going to like this thread.  Hard for many to accept it. He needs to play better. 

It’s hard for some people to understand that great QBs don’t always play great. Great QBs have bad plays, bad drives, and even bad games. 
 

When great QBs play bad we always blame others. It’s just how it goes. 

[Matt_In_NH]

10 minutes ago, jlgarsh said:

It's like 25% Josh, 25% others on the offense, and 50% on the coaching

very scientific of you

[Beast]

It’s totally up to him but we may have seen the best of Josh Allen.

 

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

We want him to run but all he has to do is dump it off to get easy yards. Let someone else take the hits. Several drive killing bad throws or reads. And then even the heroic ones were off. He scrambles right and makes an incredible effort to get the ball to Davis in the endzone. 6 inches lower and Davis makes that catch. 

The miss to Diggs deep was one of his worst passes in several years. It wasn't even close and Diggs never even broke stride. 

Allen is our only hope to overcome McDermott but he is regressing this season. Is that Dorsey not showing him how to take the underneath stuff. 

Did anyone ever criticize Joe Montana for a six yard completion to Roger Craig? Those dump offs didn't seem to hurt Rice's career.

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

THIS. That blitz on the drive that Bass missed the FG.... think it was on 2nd down.... You didn't need to be Tom Brady to see that the Pats might blitz on that play. They were showing you blitz. You have to know before it comes where your hot is and as soon as the ball is in your hands it needs to be gone again. I just do not understand what Josh was thinking on that play. It's where I would love to be in the film room with him and Joe Brady talking through that. What did you see? Why did you not throw the hot? 

What I’ve been saying.  He is not winning pre-snap.  He’s trying to pick the lock after the ball is snapped and is struggling to figure it out on the fly.  To me that SCREAMS a lack of film study and preparation.

 

I love Josh Allen.

 

Josh Allen is dogging this season.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, mannc said:

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

 

I agree. And if they miss the playoffs with Josh Allen even if you don't think it is necessarily McDermott and Beane's "fault" per se if Josh is regressing you have to try a new regime in the hope it reinvigorates him. I agree with that. But you also have to go into that saying "it has 2 years to work, or else we have to look elsewhere at what the problem is."

[Coach Tuesday]

This is the first year since his rookie year where he seems to be baffled by the defense’s presnap adjustments and motions, and where he seems to just drift directly into pressure multiple times per game.

 

HE IS NOT PUTTING IN THE WORK

[HardyBoy]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Have they coached him to regress in his reading of defenses pre-snap? Because that is the bit that is most concerning to me dating back to last year. It looks like Josh's processing only begins once he has the ball in his hands. Go back a couple of years and I really thought he was becoming an elite processer. That is where a lot of these issues stem from. He isn't understanding what the defense is doing pre-snap well enough. The reason he isn't always getting to the open man post snap is because at the point the ball is snapped he doesn't already have an idea where the open man might be. The reason we keep running our backs into overloads is because he isn't processing well enough at the line. I'm not so worried about the physical. Okay he threw a bad pick, he missed a couple of throws... that can happen. I'm worried about the mental. And I don't know that Dorsey (or any OC frankly) can simplify the offense any more than it was on Sunday. The plays were there and they weren't plays where you needed superman Josh to make them. 

 

So while I take the "they are coaching him not to run" point. The rest in terms of Allen's performance I'm not sure is on coaching. It's on Josh. 

 

Have they started getting plays in later in the play clock from what you have seen, after the 15 second helmet cutoff?

[mannc]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree. And if they miss the playoffs with Josh Allen even if you don't think it is necessarily McDermott and Beane's "fault" per se if Josh is regressing you have to try a new regime in the hope it reinvigorates him. I agree with that. But you also have to go into that saying "it has 2 years to work, or else we have to look elsewhere at what the problem is."

Yep.  I suspect there is a similar conversation taking place in Chargerland (if there is such a place) right now.

[Beast]

8 minutes ago, mannc said:

I don’t disagree, but if Josh is regressing, I believe the coaches ultimately bear responsibility for that.  Josh Allen is the franchise and he isn’t going anywhere.  Job 1 for the coaching staff (and Beane, BTW) is to leverage the most physically dominant QB in the league.  They have largely failed at that task.

Nah. Not at this point. Josh Allen is a veteran QB. You can’t have games against Miami when he decides to take what is given and multiple games like the Patriots game where it’s his way and not the team way. You can’t freaking tell me it’s not being drummed into his head to take the hot WR time and time again.

 

This is becoming a Josh Allen problem and Ken Dorsey appears to be the whipping boy for it.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Beast