Devils advocate...what is Josh is the problem?

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

How do you grow as an offense when the main player in the offense doesn't want to be a part of the natural play design. 

 

How do you know what the natural play design is and whether Allen is executing it or not? For example I see people criticize him for targeting Diggs on certain plays, but it is clearly built into the offense that in obvious man coverage situations his read is always Diggs first. I see people criticize him for not checking out of certain plays or not making the right read on an RPO, without knowing his checks or reads or even if the plays they're criticizing have those checks and reads built in.

 

I take the simple view of things. If Murray didn't unnecessarily commit OPI and Bass made a chip shot (for him) FG, we put up 32 points. That's without a true #2 WR and poor pass protection for much of the game. That's with Allen missing several throws that he usually hits. That's with the defense not getting off the field. That's with Knox dropping a simple 4th down catch.

 

So I guess I find it hard to believe that he's leading an offense putting up that kind of scoring production with so much going wrong around him, while also missing a bunch of reads and generally not performing well. I get that still frame all-22 review has become very trendy but I'd like to think we are smarter than that and can evaluate the offense based on what we know, not on what we think.

[Mango]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

How do you know what the natural play design is and whether Allen is executing it or not? For example I see people criticize him for targeting Diggs on certain plays, but it is clearly built into the offense that in obvious man coverage situations his read is always Diggs first. I see people criticize him for not checking out of certain plays or not making the right read on an RPO, without knowing his checks or reads or even if the plays they're criticizing have those checks and reads built in.

 

I take the simple view of things. If Murray didn't unnecessarily commit OPI and Bass made a chip shot (for him) FG, we put up 32 points. That's without a true #2 WR and poor pass protection for much of the game. That's with Allen missing several throws that he usually hits. That's with the defense not getting off the field. That's with Knox dropping a simple 4th down catch.

 

So I guess I find it hard to believe that he's leading an offense putting up that kind of scoring production with so much going wrong around him, while also missing a bunch of reads and generally not performing well. I get that still frame all-22 review has become very trendy but I'd like to think we are smarter than that and can evaluate the offense based on what we know, not on what we think.

The Knox drop on 4th was a killer too. 
 

I am critical of Allen at times but there is a ton going on at the moment. When it comes to mid season complaints, better QB play is the quick fix for a lot of (most?) things for most teams.

 

It’s tough because he has these moments and games Miami or the Raiders. But also the Jets. The delta between his highs and lows is remarkable. It’s easy to go “well he should stop being this version, and he should just be that other better version”.

 

We need upgrades at OT, WR, and execution. If we could throw out the plays that have 3 WR in a 5 yard radius that would be cool too.

[Shortchaz]

The offense is struggling for many reasons and when that happens we simplify and use the shorthand of saying the quarterback and or the offensive coordinator is the problem. 
 

I see it as a package deal, the oc and the qb, they go together. ultimately, whatever they’re doing isn’t working. That’s the issue…it’s not working. 
 

I tend to lay more blame on josh than others are comfortable with. I do this because he is the leader. As his compensation demonstrates, HE IS the boss on offense. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Shortchaz

[Dr.Sack]

I think Allen is playing up to his 2020 and beyond level. You really can't ask more of Allen outside of asking him to run the ball. 

 

 

[Billsflyer12]

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locked-on-bills-daily-podcast-on-the-buffalo-bills/id1145479962?i=1000632340805
 

Pretty knowledgeable and level headed Joe Marino had a lot of great observations from the All-22 here.  Josh being a mess was one of the biggest takeaways.

[ALLinALLEN]

I think we’re all very lucky they play Thursday night. Can’t sit on this feeling of no answers for much longer 

[RoscoeParrish]

Dorsey deserves the bulk of the blame. 
 

Not all of it. 

 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716619640414024151?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg

 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716606302338568314?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg
 

https://x.com/erikjturner/status/1716551777388998713?s=46&t=OXyXgvyV9xUtz0I9HYtilg

 

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by RoscoeParrish
Update

[3rdand12]

6 hours ago, Dick_Cheney said:

If I had to guess, I'd say it's an identity crisis and loss of confidence in coaches as well as the majority of the offense.

 

It's clear at this point that Josh's big play ability is being held back, and he's not the one choosing to do so. For whatever reason, he has decided not to rebel against whatever Dorsey and likely also McD have been trying to instill in him to be a more stereotypical pocket passer and to essentially neutralize the wild and explosive aspect of his running ability and his hero ball play. Yes, this actually has to some degree cut down on the mistakes that would come with that sort of play, but at this point it seems like a wash in that regard, all the while we no longer have any of the upside and the positives of Josh's usual style of play.

 

So we've absorbed all the negative aspects of changing his game, but haven't reaped any of the benefts. If the offense and the line were totally stacked then sure, we'd be a machine on offense. Instead we are predictable and teams no longer have to spy Josh, and honestly I don't think they fear him or go into each play anymore thinking "Oh *****, he might pull off something insane here." He's been neutered and they know it.

 

As for confidence in the rest of the offense, it's pretty bleak. Knox is anti-clutch. Diggs can't get the ball every time. We have no true #2 receiver. It was very encouraging having such a great game with Kincaid and I hope that mentally that gives Josh the confidence to basically turn him into the #2, but still. Having two guys on your offense that you actually trust isn't enough and that is painfully obvious.

 

Josh will always make some mistakes, but I cannot blame him too much at the moment considering what he's been told to do and the cast of characters he is having to do it with.

well maybe

 What has actually occurred is that Defense Coordinators have figured out the Offense,

 

and the Offense has no retort.

 Its really that simple

[BillsUberAlles]

Allen seems like he is afraid to even consider running now. 

 

I have to think that's coaching and that it's been drilled into him starting last off-season.

 

They got what they wanted. They aren't liking the results. Turning him into Herbert isn't working out as well as they thought.

[Franco_92]

Every person you could possibly associate with the franchise gets blamed an average of 15 times per each loss we have. Plenty of people have rightly criticized Josh's contributions to the loss yesterday. Why do we always talk in these incorrect absolutes?

[Aussie Joe]

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

[Your Brown Eye]

Those are fighting words on Chippewa

[Warcodered]

Because people don't know how to use the search function at the top of the site.

[RoscoeParrish]

5 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

99% of our fan base blames our inept offense solely on a coaching and personnel problem. Am I wrong? 

Edited October 24, 2023 by RoscoeParrish

[Billever76]

Why doesn't McDermott get any blame until just NOW? I mean I look at it the opposite...McDermott has reaped massive praise and credit that has almost all been dependent on josh allen and stefon Diggs.....we honestly have a middling average at best hc and staff with a superstar generational quarterback and wr

Edited October 24, 2023 by Billever76

[Success]

3 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

 

LOL

 

JA is to Wright what Lebron is to Skip.  Dude is obsessed.

 

[3rdand12]

Just now, BillsUberAlles said:

Allen seems like he is afraid to even consider running now. 

 

I have to think that's coaching and that it's been drilled into him starting last off-season.

 

They got what they wanted. They aren't liking the results. Turning him into Herbert isn't working out as well as they thought.

The offense needed to grow. Build the running game. use TEs. Screens sweeps checkdowns quick hits.

 RB out of the backfield.

 

Stop with the shotgun and five wide bs. Not sustainable for Allen's health.

Just because they messed it doesnt mean the concept was wrong.

Allen still can dump the ball off short for some reason. we all see the open guys while Josh pats the ball waiting

poor kids a mess by now

 

do away with that damned shotgun ! and the shotgun draw

we saw dorsey go back to it late in the game last sunday.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Never gets the blame?

 

You ever heard of Nick Wright? 

Pink Floyd ?

[Aussie Joe]

3 minutes ago, RoscoeParrish said:

99% of our fan base blames our inept offense solely on a coaching problem. Am I wrong? 

I’ll say that there is a lot of excuse making made for Josh, by a significant part of the fan base 

[Charles Romes]

He’s 6’5, has one of the strongest arms in the history of the game, and his ability to sense where the pressure is coming from is almost unparalleled. If the OC can’t find a way to take advantage of these gifts even when Allen plays average, yes it is all the OCs fault. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Charles Romes

[HurlyBurly51]

I know some TBD posters who are salivating at seeing this thread title and who should be here in 3, 2, 1......