Devils advocate...what is Josh is the problem?

[Buffalo716]

Dude we have receivers running into each other down the field

 

I don't care if they get open occasionally.. the spacing is horrible and we end up with two or three receivers in the same area

 

I wouldn't trust anything either 

 

Mental block ? Lol the person drawing up our play designs has a mental block

 

 

[TNBills]

So far between last night and today I've read:

1. Josh isn't taking what is given

2. Josh isn't reading the defense and locking into on guy

3. Josh is going through his progressions too fast

4. Josh isn't throwing down field enough

5. Josh isn't throwing to the underneath guys enough

6. Josh isn't running enough

7. Josh isn't taking enough chances

8. Josh is being too reckless throwing into coverage 

9. Josh doesn't trust (name which player you want)

10. Josh doesn't look like he cares out there

 

So which is it? Maybe it's a collective effort of recievers not getting much separation, poor play design (guys in same area along and at the same level too often), and a lack of trust with guys dropping the ball or maybe not being where they should be. There is a lot of things not working right now and none of us has a clue as to how they can fix it. We just have to suffer through the ride that is the 2023 Bills.

 

[Low Positive]

5 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Not saying its a long term thing but since he started throwing picks he's not going through his progressions the same and as a result he's missing people.  

 

Watch the cheifs game last year before he started throwing picks.  He was so decisive and fast that game.  Same with NE game.  Even until halftime at against green Bay.  Then he threw a pick.  Then another and all of a sudden he was off.  

 

He needs a sports psychologist. 

No one said get rid of him.  He's got a bit of a mental block.  Doesn't mean he can't fix.  Doesn't mean we need rid of him.  But he CAN be the problem and the solution too. 

No one said get rid of him.  He's got a bit of a mental block.  Doesn't mean he can't fix.  Doesn't mean we need rid of him.  But he CAN be the problem and the solution too. 

I also point back to that Green Bay game last year as a turning point. The first INT that he threw in that game was essentially the same play as the first INT against the Jets the next week (remember they opened the game with a bomb to Diggs and then Josh threw an INT on the next play), the final play in OT against the Vikings, the Third INT against the Jets in week one and the INT yesterday. It is a play where Josh is rolling right, sees what he thinks is an open receiver (usually Knox), but fails to see a DB waiting to jump the route. 

[LABILLBACKER]

38 minutes ago, Dick_Cheney said:

If I had to guess, I'd say it's an identity crisis and loss of confidence in coaches as well as the majority of the offense.

 

It's clear at this point that Josh's big play ability is being held back, and he's not the one choosing to do so. For whatever reason, he has decided not to rebel against whatever Dorsey and likely also McD have been trying to instill in him to be a more stereotypical pocket passer and to essentially neutralize the wild and explosive aspect of his running ability and his hero ball play. Yes, this actually has to some degree cut down on the mistakes that would come with that sort of play, but at this point it seems like a wash in that regard, all the while we no longer have any of the upside and the positives of Josh's usual style of play.

 

So we've absorbed all the negative aspects of changing his game, but haven't reaped any of the benefts. If the offense and the line were totally stacked then sure, we'd be a machine on offense. Instead we are predictable and teams no longer have to spy Josh, and honestly I don't think they fear him or go into each play anymore thinking "Oh *****, he might pull off something insane here." He's been neutered and they know it.

 

As for confidence in the rest of the offense, it's pretty bleak. Knox is anti-clutch. Diggs can't get the ball every time. We have no true #2 receiver. It was very encouraging having such a great game with Kincaid and I hope that mentally that gives Josh the confidence to basically turn him into the #2, but still. Having two guys on your offense that you actually trust isn't enough and that is painfully obvious.

 

Josh will always make some mistakes, but I cannot blame him too much at the moment considering what he's been told to do and the cast of characters he is having to do it with.

Toward the end of 2021, Josh was firing on all cylinders.  Daboll let his athleticism loose. Then something was lost when Dorsey took over. Josh was top 3 in MVP voting for 3 straight years. To some degree because of the Jets debacle, he's been neutered or tamed if you will.  His edge just isn't there anymore and it's reflected in his behavior on the bench. He's not animated, he's not firing up his players. A scrub 7th round qb pretending to be an NFL OC isn't helping. McD has no clue about offensive structure. We should've lost to NYG, and yesterday was just as embarrassing. 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Calidiehard said:

So far between last night and today I've read:

1. Josh isn't taking what is given

2. Josh isn't reading the defense and locking into on guy

3. Josh is going through his progressions too fast

4. Josh isn't throwing down field enough

5. Josh isn't throwing to the underneath guys enough

6. Josh isn't running enough

7. Josh isn't taking enough chances

8. Josh is being too reckless throwing into coverage 

9. Josh doesn't trust (name which player you want)

10. Josh doesn't look like he cares out there

 

So which is it? Maybe it's a collective effort of recievers not getting much separation, poor play design (guys in same area along and at the same level too often), and a lack of trust with guys dropping the ball or maybe not being where they should be. There is a lot of things not working right now and none of us has a clue as to how they can fix it. We just have to suffer through the ride that is the 2023 Bills.

 

It’s multi factorial.  Dorsey hasn’t been innovative enough; defenses have figured out what we’re doing.  Josh then has more pressure on him and as such presses and makes mistakes he wouldn’t normally make.  The O line is not playing as well as it should.  And WRs need to get better spacing and catch the ball consistently.

 

While statistically the offense looks good, the past several weeks it has played terribly the first half to three quarters of the games.  And everyone involved has responsibility for that.

[somnus00]

31 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Josh put us in position to win the game and yet again the defense **** the bed and that falls solely on McD. 

Josh's 3 points in the first half also put the Bills in position to lose that game. This is a team sport, the fails don't fall solely on anyone. I love Josh, he's the QB I want for this team, but the offense has been putrid for the last 3 weeks, and bad for 5 of the 7 games. Josh deserves part of the blame for this as well, no?

[BananaB]

Trade him then, get a kings ransom. MCD can put all the picks towards his D and we can watch the players get put in and out of the lineup for four years before any of them start to contribute. 
 

Like Josh said last week, people outside don’t know the reads, don’t know the progression. You ***** guys look at still pictures and think every man is open and Allen sees all of them despite the ***** protection he has.
 

Put in Kyle Allen for a ***** quarter and see how it ***** goes. Lmao.

Josh ain’t playing his best but he’s far from our ***** problem. 

3 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

Josh's 3 points in the first half also put the Bills in position to lose that game. This is a team sport, the fails don't fall solely on anyone. I love Josh, he's the QB I want for this team, but the offense has been putrid for the last 3 weeks, and bad for 5 of the 7 games. Josh deserves part of the blame for this as well, no?

Maybe look at Murray who took the penalty to negate the TD and Bass who missed the ***** FG as well. Be 10-10 at half if it wasn’t for those mistakes

Edited October 23, 2023 by BananaB

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I also point back to that Green Bay game last year as a turning point. The first INT that he threw in that game was essentially the same play as the first INT against the Jets the next week (remember they opened the game with a bomb to Diggs and then Josh threw an INT on the next play), the final play in OT against the Vikings, the Third INT against the Jets in week one and the INT yesterday. It is a play where Josh is rolling right, sees what he thinks is an open receiver (usually Knox), but fails to see a DB waiting to jump the route. 

It's called being a gunslinger... 

 

This board cried about his running for years and now the bills have neutered it... Hurting our offense

 

Now you want to neuter his playmaking ability... With the way Josh Allen plays, and some of the throws he makes

 

You need to take the good throws with the head scratchers... Because he is a gunslinger

 

Like Brett favre

 

If they neuter his game anymore we're going to be handicapping the most talented quarterback ever... If he gets 40 touchdowns a year but 10 to 15 turnovers you need to live with it

 

Because he makes plays

[DapperCam]

Allen is #5 in passing yards, tied for #1 in passing TDs, #5 in passer rating, #3 in completion percentage, tied for #10 in rushing TDs, #1 in total TDs.

 

He’s also led game winning drives at the end of the 4th quarter the past two games.

 

So no…the issue isn’t Josh Allen.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Here is how I feel about Josh Allen in his prime untouchable. I would trade the entire Buffalo Bills team everyone including the trainers before I trade a talented player like Josh Allen. There is no way as a Bills fan for almost 50 years am I going back to everyone is great but the quarterback for 17 loser draught years again with no playoffs. That severely damaged me as a Bills fan that I prefer the UB Bulls football over the Bills today I am not a UB alum either because of crap like that. Sure I watched the Bills games during the draught but I was never the same again because I didn’t trust the Bills organization anymore after all that. That is what getting rid of a superstar quarterback in his prime would do. The final straw for me giving up my Bills season tickets was the Bills explaining away dumping Drew Bledsoe to the Dallas Cowboys after giving up all that draft capital and enjoying watching him zip the football down the field for loser JP Losman. Goodbye Bills season tickets it was the best thing I ever did regardless of the Bills organization calling begging to comeback. My live football was at UB plenty of parking for free, tickets were dirt cheap and 10 minutes UB Stadium was from my home. I never looked back that is what dumb moves do fewer are going to pay for that crap regardless if it’s the NFL shield.
 

The Buffalo Bills organization can’t be stupid anymore about that stuff like that with a new very expensive stadium coming see the Buffalo Sabres attendance. Few real football fans the party fan won’t care but real football fans that are at the stadium for the football want to not have gifted and talented players on the Bills. The NFL shield doesn’t guarantee attendance if the quarterback plays like he can’t chew gum and throw 20 yards down the field in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[Ga boy]

50 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Your username points to the problem.  He is trying to play like Herbert and extend plays outside the pocket to throw downfield instead of taking off running when the opportunities are there. Herbert runs only as a last resort.  Last year Allen ran 70 more times than Herbert did.  This year they are equal. That's a major problem, IMO. Both for him and for the offense in general.

 

It's causing defenders to not respect that part of his game anymore and simply drop back to cover which means he has a bunch of green grass to run but instead tries to throw into tighter windows.  

 

If he starts taking advantage of those green spaces again, it forces defenders to respect it and come up to stop him, thereby opening up those windows again. Literally that's all that he needs to do.

 

The other problem is the team isn't playing with any continuity as a team and playing "complimentary football".  When the D is making stops and getting the O the ball back in the first half, they can't do anything, and then when the O starts moving and scoring at will in the 2nd half, the D can't get any stops and allows long drives and the other team to eat time off the clock, lessening the opportunity for the Bills to score more points to pull away. In the last 9 "real possessions" in the 2nd halves of the last 3 games, the offense has 7 TDS, a missed FG and a turnover on downs after picking up 42 yards.  That's pretty good...no punts, mostly TDs.  The D needs to help them more by getting a 3 and out here or there instead of allowing 15 play 8.5 minute drives for points for the other team.

 

They need to start playing as a unit where the O helps the D and the D helps the O.  

They can't handle the truth or handling the football.  Dropsies are killing us.  Instead of Herbert, JA17 ought to mimick Tua with 2.3 second release time, and the receivers should mimick Rice and Reed.  It would be great if this team could make the playoffs, but with the defense injuries, they no longer have the team to compete with KC and Baltimore.  At this point, I've adjusted my expectations to a WC.

 

[somnus00]

7 minutes ago, BananaB said:

Trade him then, get a kings ransom. MCD can put all the picks towards his D and we can watch the players get put in and out of the lineup for four years before any of them start to contribute. 
 

Like Josh said last week, people outside don’t know the reads, don’t know the progression. You ***** guys look at still pictures and think every man is open and Allen sees all of them despite the ***** protection he has.
 

Put in Kyle Allen for a ***** quarter and see how it ***** goes. Lmao.

Josh ain’t playing his best but he’s far from our ***** problem. 

Maybe look at Murray who took the penalty to negate the TD and Bass who missed the ***** FG as well. Be 10-10 at half if it wasn’t for those mistakes

Let's say those things didn't happen. Is 10 points in the half against this weak defense a good outcome? What about getting shut out until the 4th quarter last week against that terrible Giants defense? Or 7 points in the first half the week before?

 

I am not placing all of the blame on Josh. I love the guy. My point was that no one person deserves all of the blame. But Josh has not been playing well.

[BananaB]

3 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

Let's say those things didn't happen. Is 10 points in the half against this weak defense a good outcome? What about getting shut out until the 4th quarter last week against that terrible Giants defense? Or 7 points in the first half the week before?

 

I am not placing all of the blame on Josh. I love the guy. My point was that no one person deserves all of the blame. But Josh has not been playing well.

When you start your paragraph with “Josh’s 3 points at half”you are basically saying it’s all Josh. I

 

It’s all Josh. Nothing to do with anyone else on O just Josh. 🙄

Edited October 23, 2023 by BananaB

[somnus00]

4 minutes ago, BananaB said:

6 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

Let's say those things didn't happen. Is 10 points in the half against this weak defense a good outcome? What about getting shut out until the 4th quarter last week against that terrible Giants defense? Or 7 points in the first half the week before?

 

I am not placing all of the blame on Josh. I love the guy. My point was that no one person deserves all of the blame. But Josh has not been playing well.

It’s all Josh right. Nothing to do with anyone else on O just Josh. 🙄

 

Here, I underlined and added the bold print to make it easier for you.

[BananaB]

4 minutes ago, somnus00 said:

 

Here, I underlined and added the bold print to make it easier for you.

“Josh’s 3 points at half also put the Bills in position to lose the game”

 

Those are your words right? Sure  sounds like you are putting all the blame on him to me. 🤷🏼‍♂️

[DapperCam]

34 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I also point back to that Green Bay game last year as a turning point. The first INT that he threw in that game was essentially the same play as the first INT against the Jets the next week (remember they opened the game with a bomb to Diggs and then Josh threw an INT on the next play), the final play in OT against the Vikings, the Third INT against the Jets in week one and the INT yesterday. It is a play where Josh is rolling right, sees what he thinks is an open receiver (usually Knox), but fails to see a DB waiting to jump the route. 

His pick yesterday was a high-low concept the Bills run like 10 times per game. If the DB takes the underneath guy, then Allen is supposed to throw to the high guy. If the DB takes the high guy, then Allen is supposed to throw to the underneath guy.

 

Peppers said in his post game that he recognized the play and knew he was going to get a pick. He knew Allen was going to throw to the high receiver before he had even thrown it.

 

That is on Dorsey IMO. If the DB on the other team knows the plays well enough that they know exactly where the QB is gonna throw it, then that is a problem.

[sven233]

Make no mistake about it......Josh is definitely part of the problem.  But so are the coaches, so is the offensive line, and so are the WRs and TEs. 

 

Allen misses reads and misses throws.  You can see it when you watch the All-22.  But you know what?  Every QB in the league and in every game does the same thing.  What separates the average ones from the great ones like Allen are the plays that he makes that other can't that make up for some of those other missed opportunities.  And when you are under pressure nearly 50% of dropbacks, even the ones you aren't pressured on can feel like it's only a matter of time.  And that's on the line and scheme.  Go back to the run earlier in the season against the Raiders, Washington, and Dolphins.  In those games he was barely touched and hardly hurried.  And what happened in those games?  They put up a ton of points.  Now, take a look at the last 3.  The pressure percentage in each of those games skyrocketed and he's been running for his life a lot of those games.  Part of this is on the guys up front getting beat and part of it is on coaching.

 

Finally, as we all know, a lot of this falls on coaching.  Coaches are responsible for putting players in the best possible positions to succeed.  Right now, on offense particularly, they are not doing that.  Perfect example is last week on 2nd and goal needing a foot.  Instead of doing the tush push which is basically unstoppable, they decided it would be better to go shotgun and give the RB the ball 6 YARDS away from the goal line instead of sneaking it for a foot, which the had 3 CHANCES TO FINISH!  That is dumb and not putting your players in the best positions to succeed.  Yesterday, though, after being called out on it relentlessly all week, they went to the tush push in every scenario that called for it and it worked every time they needed to use it.  So, hopefully they learned their lesson there.  But too many other times, they continue to not put their players in a position to get the best out of them.  They tell Allen not to run.  They don't call designed runs for him anymore.  What has made Allen the player he is today?  It's the fact that he's a unicorn because he can beat you on any play for 40 yards by throwing or running!  Now they are cutting him off at the knees and telling him he can only throw.  So, what happens?  Defenses now know they don't have to fear him taking off and killing them with his legs and they can treat him like a 1 dimensional player.  That is not putting your players in the best positions to succeed. 

 

The stats and the eye test both show that this offense can still be explosive when running play action from under center.  Heck, the stats show we run the ball better from under center.  Yet, what happens?  We're still in shotgun 70% of the time!  Again. this is not putting your players in the best positions to succeed.  And don't get me started with how they have, or haven't been, using Kincaid up until yesterday.  There is virtually no motion or eye candy in this offense to draw the defenses attention.  No creativity at all.  Everything is static and run out of the same formations over and over again.  This is not putting your players in the best position to succeed. 

 

So, is Josh to blame?  Of course he is at times.  He's not perfect.  But he's also not been given the opportunities to be in the best position to succeed either.  There is a lot going wrong on offense right now, and it starts with the coaches and their decision to purposely make him one dimensional and take away half of what makes him almost an unstoppable player.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

4 minutes ago, BananaB said:

“Josh’s 3 points at half also put the Bills in position to lose the game”

 

Those are your words right? Sure  sounds like you are putting all the blame on him to me. 🤷🏼‍♂️

When you score two Tds and have a three point lead with 1 1/2 minutes left that is what matters at that point. Nothing before that matters until you watch the film and find out what you need to correct. So having said that McDermott and his D should be able to at least hold the worst offense and QB to no more than a FG. Colossal failure again at crunch by a coaching staff that has been losing the teams players since 13 seconds.

[BaaadThingsMan]

What is Josh is someone is what is?

[Low Positive]

1 minute ago, BaaadThingsMan said:

What is Josh is someone is what is?

Huh?