How is Dorsey doing using his new (and previous) offensive weapons after 6 games?

[Mister Defense]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:11 AM, Green Lightning said:

While I don't buy into all the OP's assumptions, I have to agree that DC's have our number and Dorsey seems flummoxed to figure out a new attack. Let's see what the Pats dark lord dials up today and how Dorsey responds.

 

Too little of a response too late.  But they did seem to finally find something once they got going (too late).  Let's hope that the diversity they showed was the beginning of something new, but I thought that earlier in the season and they then just reverted back to the same ol' crap.

On 10/22/2023 at 10:05 AM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Why did OP leave out James Cook's rushing yards? Was that an oversight or intentional? 

 

Intentional, as I think it is misleading.  The use of Cook, overall, has not been what it needs to be. Yes, his rushing stats look pretty good, but those many horrible runs right into the heart of defenses for such a slight back have been a big part of the problem.  Cook will be a great weapon next year with the new OC, but he had a very good game yesterday.  They actually made him an integral part of the passing game, finally!  Is Dorsey dumb or just lazy, uninspired?

[Mister Defense]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:17 AM, Augie said:

I have an idea! Why don’t we scramble up all the words and use them in a different order to start a NEW Dorsey thread!   

 

I’m not thrilled with the ups and downs either, but if we put up 70 today can we take a week off from the repetitive bashing threads? 

 

 

.

 

it is not bashing for the sake of bashing, but fans who are pointing to what is blatantly clear to almost all who watch this team.  I am hoping that Dorsey finds his groove, but have been thinking that would happen, hoping it would, since early last year.  Unless there is dramatic change now, despite all of the vocal for support from players and McDermott this week, Dorsey will be fired after this season.

 

Despite the extremely poor start against the Pats, there were some positive changes in the diversity of players used, the use of the running game, the involvement of the backs in the passing game, and overall rhythm of the offense.

 

But too little too late yesterday. In the next weeks we will see of things now progress--or if Dorsey falls into the same stale, obvious, predictable patterns that he seems to always revert to, leaving defensive coordinators licking their chops...

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Mister Defense

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

8 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Intentional, as I think it is misleading.  The use of Cook, overall, has not been what it needs to be. Yes, his rushing stats look pretty good, but those many horrible runs right into the heart of defenses for such a slight back have been a big part of the problem.  Cook will be a great weapon next year with the new OC, but he had a very good game yesterday.  They actually made him an integral part of the passing game, finally!  Is Dorsey dumb or just lazy, uninspired?

I’m glad you responded, but I think you’re simply wrong on Cook.

 

he had an amazing game yesterday. His best game as a bill yet and he’s already had several good games.

 

he was routinely, getting tough yardage, right up the middle, 3, 4, 5 yards every time. Given his frame it is surprising how good he is getting those tough yards.

 

 

 

[Mister Defense]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:38 AM, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Against the Giants the Bills were 19 pass attempts to 9 runs in the first half. And at one point in the first half they were 14 pass attempts to only 3 runs. 

 

To Dorsey's credit, in the second half the Bills were 18 rush attempts with the running backs and 2 Josh Allen scrambles to only 12 pass attempts. The Bills only had three possessions in the second half. They scored TD's on the first two. And the final possession was one I would say the Bills were not running their normal offense given the game and clock situation. 

 

Dorsey 100% adjusted in the second half and all the running backs including Cook were picking up meaningful and tough yardage. Murray was also seeing a lot of first down carries in this game. Dorsey basically was calling exactly the kind of ground game the OP asks for and Cook was getting good yards that were not in garbage time like the OP suggests. 

 

 

I agree completely, but then Dorsey just keeps reverting to his comfort zone, which, if allowed to continue, will mean this talent laden team, and superb quarterback, may not even make the playoffs this year, let alone be true contender.

 

Where does the buck stop with the Bills offense?  With other NFL teams it is with the OC, and needs to be with Dorsey and the Bills too--before it's too late.

 

Our eyes are not deceiving us.  There are clear and fundamental problems with all aspects of the offense, including their weekly preparation for the game.  That disastrous pre-season game showed us what we could expect this year from Dorsey. That should have done more to force him to get things right. Instead it was brushed off with many excuses. 

[Xwnyer]

Jeremy White or Joe made an interesting comment today that the Bills are trying to use Josh like the Pats used Brady.   The issue is Josh is not Brady yet we are trying to run that kind of offense.   I just think we have become the most vanilla offense in the world right now and that Dorsey is the issue.   Look at many of the passing plays and you will see three receivers within a few yards of each other making it easier for the defense to react.  We seem to lack the ability to hit players in stride for YAC the only big YAC plays have been with Diggs absolutely breaking tackles and taking off to score.   I see other teams hitting players on slants all day long with great YAC yards.   

[Mister Defense]

2 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

Jeremy White or Joe made an interesting comment today that the Bills are trying to use Josh like the Pats used Brady.   The issue is Josh is not Brady yet we are trying to run that kind of offense.   I just think we have become the most vanilla offense in the world right now and that Dorsey is the issue.   Look at many of the passing plays and you will see three receivers within a few yards of each other making it easier for the defense to react.  We seem to lack the ability to hit players in stride for YAC the only big YAC plays have been with Diggs absolutely breaking tackles and taking off to score.   I see other teams hitting players on slants all day long with great YAC yards.   

 

 

You sum it up very well.  It is so predictable and poor that when they start games defensive coordinators no longer fear our once great offense, but can't wait to get going against them.  They are the worst thing possible in the NFL--predictable, and in so many ways. Shoot, even poor teams and weaker defenses seem to have figured this out.

 

Let's hope the changes we did see as the game progressed yesterday were a good sign for the future--but I have been hoping for that too often over the last season+ now.  It looks like Dorsey is in way over his head.

[Big Turk]

He is trying to force Allen to be a Justin Herbert clone and it's neutering their offense. They are doing it to themselves. Teams are not respecting Allen's ability to pick up yards outside the pocket with his legs because like Herbert, Allen is trying to do anything but take off running, instead waiting too long many times to throw low percentage passes downfield to plastered receivers, precisely because he isn't forcing them to stay honest and respect his running where they feel the need to stop him from picking up 15 yards and an easy first down and leave the receiver open. 

 

Last year Allen had 70 more rushing attempts than Herbert(124 to 54). This year, he has 1 more rushing attempt than Herbert, and if he would have gotten in on the first QB sneak at the goalline yesterday or not taken off on the final lateral play, it would be the same. That's not acceptable.  He is playing someone else's game and not his own.  

 

Mahomes had 66 rushes last year, this year he has 33, more than Allen. Lawrence has 41.  Pickett had 14!! in one game yesterday. Let's not even get into Jackson and Hurts.  

 

If Dorsey wants to fix the offense, they need to let Allen start playing like Allen again and not some Justin Herbert clone.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[Mister Defense]

23 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

As I heard from a talking head this week, the offense’s struggles have a lot to do with Allen, but he’s not going anywhere, so it’s easier to put the blame on the coordinator. You can move on from him. You can’t move on from Allen. Josh needs to play better and he owns that. 

 

Allen did not just regress--the offense around him did and he is trying to compensate.  Crystal clear, over and over, when you watch games this season and last.  Yes, Allen vocally supports Dorsey, but lately the details of his comments seem to indicate he knows Dorsey is not coordinating this offense well.    Obviously he cannot just say that.

[Big Turk]

25 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

Jeremy White or Joe made an interesting comment today that the Bills are trying to use Josh like the Pats used Brady.   The issue is Josh is not Brady yet we are trying to run that kind of offense.   I just think we have become the most vanilla offense in the world right now and that Dorsey is the issue.   Look at many of the passing plays and you will see three receivers within a few yards of each other making it easier for the defense to react.  We seem to lack the ability to hit players in stride for YAC the only big YAC plays have been with Diggs absolutely breaking tackles and taking off to score.   I see other teams hitting players on slants all day long with great YAC yards.   

 

No, he is trying to force him into being Justin Herbert...extend plays outside the pocket but only run as a last resort, waiting until the last minute instead to try and throw balls downfield. Brady probably wasn't outside the pocket as much as Allen was last game in an entire season...that's a bad comparison.

 

  The issue is, defenders and DC's have noticed and they don't bother trying to rush up to stop Allen from running anymore because they don't think he will since he hasn't shown them he will in games this year.  They have made themselves much easier to defend. Now instead of huge voids Allen has to throw to as defenders run up to try and stop his running, the receivers are plastered and Allen is reluctant to take off running, much like Herbert is.

 

It needs to change if they want to go back to being who they are.  Allen cannot play like Herbert and be as effective being someone else the way he can being himself.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[Augie]

18 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I’m glad you responded, but I think you’re simply wrong on Cook.

 

he had an amazing game yesterday. His best game as a bill yet and he’s already had several good games.

 

he was routinely, getting tough yardage, right up the middle, 3, 4, 5 yards every time. Given his frame it is surprising how good he is getting those tough yards.

 

 

 

 

On another positive note, Kincaid had his best game as a pro as well with 8 catches on 8 targets for 75 yards. On the year I believe he has 25 catches on 27 targets. Those might be off just a bit, but he is the player we had hoped he would be. Let’s keep him heavily in the mix, that’s why we drafted him where we did. 

 

The 0-line may not be full of Pro Bowlers, but they are improved. We have talent, we just need to use it properly and not shoot ourselves in the foot with penalties and mistakes. 

[Mister Defense]

5 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

No, he is trying to force him into being Justin Herbert...extend plays outside the pocket but only run as a last resort, waiting until the last minute instead to try and throw balls downfield.  The issue is, defenders and DC's have noticed and they don't bother trying to rush up to stop Allen from running anymore because they don't think he will since he hasn't shown them he will in games this year.  They have made themselves much easier to defend. Now instead of huge voids Allen has to throw to as defenders run up to try and stop his running, the receivers are plastered and Allen is reluctant to take off running, much like Herbert is.

 

It needs to change if they want to go back to being who they are.  Allen cannot play like Herbert and be as effective being someone else the way he can being himself.

 

You bring yet another very good point, one that should be clear to all watching this team closely. Not only are players not being utilized--Dorsey plays against their individual strengths as well.  He is making Allen too often look like a much lesser player than he is.  Josh is dejected now because too often is overcoming both the micro and macro aspects of this offense.  Instead, EVERYTHING should be doing the opposite, giving Allen and the other players the tools needed to overcome obstacles, facilitating things.  Obviously that is a fatal flaw if it is correct and it certainly looks that way!

 

One of so many things that is wrong with the offense and Dorsey's leadership. He just doesn't seem to get it, at all. 

[Big Turk]

1 minute ago, Mister Defense said:

 

You bring yet another very good point, one that should be clear to all watching this team closely. Not only are players not being utilized--Dorsey plays against their individual strengths as well.  He is making Allen too often look like a much lesser player than he is.  Josh is dejected now because too often is overcoming both the micro and macro aspects of this offense.  Instead, EVERYTHING should be doing the opposite, giving Allen and the other players the tools needed to overcome obstacles, facilitating things.  Obviously that is a fatal flaw if it is correct and it certainly looks that way!

 

One of so many things that is wrong with the offense and Dorsey's leadership. He just doesn't seem to get it, at all. 

 

Ironically, this is kinda similar to what happened in Daboll's second year when they ended up 7-6...then they basically unleashed Allen the rest of the year and turned into a buzzsaw going into the playoffs.

[Brand J]

13 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Allen did not just regress--the offense around him did and he is trying to compensate.  Crystal clear, over and over, when you watch games this season and last.  Yes, Allen vocally supports Dorsey, but lately the details of his comments seem to indicate he knows Dorsey is not coordinating this offense well.    Obviously he cannot just say that.

I don’t get the feeling that Allen is trying to overcompensate running Dorsey’s offense. I do think he’s being asked to play differently than he has in the past, which is take less risks, less running, etc., but he still has open receivers that he’s missing. Yes, some of those receivers drop perfectly catchable balls, but overall his accuracy and field vision aren’t where they need to be right now and that’s not the result of overcompensation. He’s in his head for whatever reason.

[BananaB]

23 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

As I heard from a talking head this week, the offense’s struggles have a lot to do with Allen, but he’s not going anywhere, so it’s easier to put the blame on the coordinator. You can move on from him. You can’t move on from Allen. Josh needs to play better and he owns that. 

The offensive struggles are all around. It’s as much Allen as it is the WRs, DC and oline. 

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, BananaB said:

The offensive struggles are all around. It’s as much Allen as it is the WRs, DC and oline. 

No doubt.

[Mister Defense]

19 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Ironically, this is kinda similar to what happened in Daboll's second year when they ended up 7-6...then they basically unleashed Allen the rest of the year and turned into a buzzsaw going into the playoffs.

 

Yeah, I have been thinking of that, hoping for it.  But I think it is just wishful thinking now unless Dorsey's hand is forced all week long and to the end of the season. He won't do it on his own, does not seem to have the ability or desire to really change  it seems. It needs to be forced upon him by his head coach  and GM, unfortunately.

 

15 minutes ago, BananaB said:

The offensive struggles are all around. It’s as much Allen as it is the WRs, DC and oline. 

 

Yup, but where does the buck stop when things are falling apart in a unit?

 

The talent on this offense clearly improved in the off season.

 

When a unit has so many fundamental problems, and you point to several, look to the coaching, of course. 

 

The buck stops with Dorsey, and then the head coach if not fixed, no matter the usual platitudes from within the organization.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Mister Defense

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

24 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

You bring yet another very good point, one that should be clear to all watching this team closely. Not only are players not being utilized--Dorsey plays against their individual strengths as well.  He is making Allen too often look like a much lesser player than he is.  Josh is dejected now because too often is overcoming both the micro and macro aspects of this offense.  Instead, EVERYTHING should be doing the opposite, giving Allen and the other players the tools needed to overcome obstacles, facilitating things.  Obviously that is a fatal flaw if it is correct and it certainly looks that way!

 

One of so many things that is wrong with the offense and Dorsey's leadership. He just doesn't seem to get it, at all. 

that’s not a Dorsey specific issue though. That’s a Management decision coming from the very top with being in McDermott. They have been preaching that Allen needs to run less, put himself in harms way less. 
 

 

[Big Turk]

9 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

 

Yeah, I have been thinking of that, hoping for it.  But I think it is just wishful thinking now unless Dorsey's hand is forced all week long and to the end of the season. He won't do it on his own, does not seem to have the ability or desire to really change  it seems. It needs to be forced upon him by his head coach  and GM, unfortunately.

 

Yup, but where does the buck stop when things are falling apart in a unit?

 

The talent on this offense clearly improved in the off season.

 

When a unit has so many fundamental problems, and you point to several, look to the coaching, of course. 

 

The buck stops with him, no matter the platitudes from within the usual platitudes from with the organization.

 

I don't think they have a lot of fundamental problems.  I think there are some things going wrong that make it look like that.  The first half is the issue.  The second half in the last 2 games, the offense has scored 5 TDs, missed a FG and turned it over on downs after picking up 42 yards on 7 "real" possessions(not counting the one with 12 seconds yesterday at the end).  

 

That's pretty freaking good production, and begs the question why isn't this happening in the first half?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Big Turk

[Mister Defense]

2 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

I don't think they have a lot of fundamental problems.  I think there are some things going wrong that make it look like that.  The first half is the issue.  The second half in the last 2 games, the offense has scored 5 TDs, missed a FG and turned it over on downs after picking up 42 yards on 7 "real" possessions(not counting the one with 12 seconds yesterday at the end).  

 

That's pretty freaking good production, and begs the question why isn't this happening in the first half?

 

 

You said the "offensive struggles are all around"--seems to indicate fundamental problems to me!

 

[boyst]

only a homer was excited for Harty or Sherfield.

 

Kincaid, as a rookie TE, has history against him.

 

Shakir and Davis need to be more, because those first 3 ain't.

 

Murray has been a great pickup.