How Good is Josh Allen Really?

[LeGOATski]

McDermott has been so consistent in getting them far into the playoffs. I think he needs a lot of help at the coordinator positions, but Frasier and now Dorsey have been particularly disappointing.

[JoPoy88]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:15 PM, hondo in seattle said:

We all know fans who believe McD should be fired if we don't get to the Super Bowl when we have Josh Allen as our QB.

 

But Josh has given us some clunkers.  There are games when he bails out of the pocket when he doesn't need to, makes bad decisions with the ball, and delivers errant throws.

 

But are Josh's subpar games truly his fault?

Sometimes I put the blame squarely on Dorsey for poor play design and bad play-calling.

 

And when I blame Dorsey, McD deserves his share of blame too.  He made Dorsey the OC and oversees the entire team.  He doesn't escape culpability.

 

But sometimes I blame the receivers who, at times, struggle to gain separation.  (Though maybe that's more of a Dorsey problem).  

And some games I blame the OL.  Josh has spent much of his career in Buffalo scrambling for his life.

 

Of course, Beane deserves some blame, too.  He's never prioritized the OL.  You would think that when you've found a generational QB, you'd build a line to protect his health and well-being as well as give him time to throw.  Beane didn't do that.  

 

There are days when Josh looks like one of the best to ever play the game.  Other times, not so much.  So, I've been wondering how good Josh really is and who's principally to blame when he's not as productive and efficient as he 'ought' to be.  

Allen is the 2nd best QB in the league and 3rd place isn’t particularly close.

[LeGOATski]

2 minutes ago, Aimee75 said:

I am not going to comment on how "great" Josh is. Most people with any sense or no bias knows he is elite.

 

My issue is it is 2023, and I am seeing a lot of fans longing for the offense of 2020 and 2021, when we had some talented old heads like Beasely, Sanders and John Brown. I AGREE! Those guys complimented Diggs and made our offense run smoother. Now it's just the Allen and Diggs show, and we don't have the reliable old guys anymore. Instead we have Davis and Knox who SOMETIMES make a great play, but often drop some easy passes, making Josh look for Diggs to get open instead of taking what's open because he doesn't trust the guys.

 

I feel sad that I don't think we have an offense/team that can win the AFCCG/Super Bowl and truly don't understand how we are still here. How? We went through some heartache the past few years and saw that needed more to get past some of the other AFC teams. What did we do to get us past Cincy and their loaded offense? Now we have The Jaguars, Chiefs are still The Chiefs, the Dolphins are loaded on offense(I know we dogwalked them, but we will most likely have to do that twice more).

 

Just feel like we are truly relying on Josh to make magic happen, while wasting his prime years. So disappointing.

QBs prime years are as long as they've ever been. If Josh feels he's being wasted, I'd encourage him to request a trade. However, he's one of the highest paid QBs with some great endorsement deals and is on a winning team. I think he's fine. He's not being wasted at all.

 

Josh is great. It's on the coaches to find the right formula in order to win the big one.

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, Aimee75 said:

I am not going to comment on how "great" Josh is. Most people with any sense or no bias knows he is elite.

 

My issue is it is 2023, and I am seeing a lot of fans longing for the offense of 2020 and 2021, when we had some talented old heads like Beasely, Sanders and John Brown. I AGREE! Those guys complimented Diggs and made our offense run smoother. Now it's just the Allen and Diggs show, and we don't have the reliable old guys anymore. Instead we have Davis and Knox who SOMETIMES make a great play, but often drop some easy passes, making Josh look for Diggs to get open instead of taking what's open because he doesn't trust the guys.

 

I feel sad that I don't think we have an offense/team that can win the AFCCG/Super Bowl and truly don't understand how we are still here. How? We went through some heartache the past few years and saw that needed more to get past some of the other AFC teams. What did we do to get us past Cincy and their loaded offense? Now we have The Jaguars, Chiefs are still The Chiefs, the Dolphins are loaded on offense(I know we dogwalked them, but we will most likely have to do that twice more).

 

Just feel like we are truly relying on Josh to make magic happen, while wasting his prime years. So disappointing.

Remember, Josh too has now been told not to run.  He has been reined in way too long.

 

Yes some of us look at coaching and scratch our heads.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Success]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

Cam won MVP and made the Super Bowl in year 5. He was easily superior in the first two seasons of their respective careers.  If Cam was doing that today, there would be a debate regarding who was better.  The difference between them is that Cam fell off a cliff after his 5th season and we’re assuming Josh won’t.  

 

If the arm injury Josh sustained last season had been serious enough to affect him for the rest of his career, they would end up being thought of pretty similarly (other than the MVP and Super Bowl).  As it stands, it certainly looks like Josh still has a long career ahead of him that could ultimately include both of those things and very likely end in Canton.

 

 

 

MVP is a relative award, and the SB is a team accomplishment

 

In year 5 of both careers:  JA had a better completion %, more yards, better QBR, and the same # of TD's.

 

 

[Old Coot]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:15 PM, hondo in seattle said:

We all know fans who believe McD should be fired if we don't get to the Super Bowl when we have Josh Allen as our QB.

 

But Josh has given us some clunkers.  There are games when he bails out of the pocket when he doesn't need to, makes bad decisions with the ball, and delivers errant throws.

 

But are Josh's subpar games truly his fault?

 

I agree with much of this post BUT Josh does not walk on water.

 

There are times when he doesn't see open receivers or bails out too soon (though he's been better lately at staying put).

 

Perhaps its because the opponent's D is good at disguising coverages or because it doe not present the same Ds that Josh has been schooled to expect earlier that week. I hope after that Jet's clunker Josh spends more time studying defenses.

 

One thing is sure, a successful O is not everyone runs around, then Josh scrambles and make a superhuman throw to Diggs for the crucial score.

 

I'm not Josh-bashing. I think he's special but there is room for improvement. Things happen pretty fast in the an NFL game so its easy to miss-fire if you are facing the unexpected.

 

or as Ferris Bueller put it, “Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.”

[ALG1130]

22 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

QBs prime years are as long as they've ever been. If Josh feels he's being wasted, I'd encourage him to request a trade. However, he's one of the highest paid QBs with some great endorsement deals and is on a winning team. I think he's fine. He's not being wasted at all.

 

Josh is great. It's on the coaches to find the right formula in order to win the big one.

Being on a "winning team" is fine and all, but I have a feeling he has bigger goals. 

[Mikie2times]

33 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

Allen is the 2nd best QB in the league and 3rd place isn’t particularly close.

Josh is most the things said in this thread but this is just homer talk

 

In the last two years:

 

Burrow in the playoffs 5-2  vs Allen 2-2 and 1-0 vs Allen

Burrow 69.3% vs  Allen 63% completion % 

Burrow 69-26 TD / INT ratio vs Allen 71-29 TD / INT

Burrow 22-10 vs Allen 24-9.  

 

It's basically a dead heat. Allen rushing yards and total prod vs Burrow completion % and postseason success is the variation and basically up to the beholder as far as separation. To say either has is head and shoulder better is foolish. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Mikie2times

[Success]

4 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

Josh is most the things said in this thread but this is just homer talk

 

In the last two years:

 

Burrow in the playoffs 5-2  vs Allen 2-2 and 1-0 vs Allen

Burrow 69.3% vs  Allen 63% completion % 

Burrow 69-26 TD / INT ratio vs Allen 71-29 TD / INT

Burrow 22-10 vs Allen 24-9.  

 

It's basically a dead heat. Allen rushing yards and total prod is basically up to the beholder. To say either has much separation is foolish. 

 

Some of those stats make for a valid comparison.  Team records & records in the playoffs do not.

 

[Mikie2times]

1 minute ago, Success said:

 

Some of those stats make for a valid comparison.  Team records & records in the playoffs do not.

 

So we should compare Fran Tarkenton, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino on the same field as Montana, Brady, and Mahomes? Sorry, but that's not how this works. The QB is responsible for leading a team further when evaluating multiple years. Fair or not, that's how this works.

[Success]

3 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

So we should compare Fran Tarkenton, Jim Kelly, Dan Marino on the same field as Montana, Brady, and Mahomes? Sorry, but that's not how this works. The QB is responsible for leading a team further when evaluating multiple years. Fair or not, that's how this works.

 

Football is the ultimate team game.  Team accomplishments shouldn't affect evaluation of QB's.

 

So, for me - that's exactly how it works.  Trent Dilfer is not better than Dan Marino.

 

[Billl]

51 minutes ago, Success said:

 

MVP is a relative award, and the SB is a team accomplishment

 

In year 5 of both careers:  JA had a better completion %, more yards, better QBR, and the same # of TD's.

 

 

I love how you just hand waive away a Super Bowl and MVP.  Cam Newton’s best WR was Ted Ginn that season, and the Bills have had the 1st or 2nd ranked defense for 3 straight seasons.  Cam was the league MVP and took his team to the Super Bowl.  Those are 2 major accomplishments.

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, BananaB said:

Mahommes was the missing link to a team with a good supporting cast an offensive minded coach who made his fair share of mistakes in the to know what they needed to accomplish their ultimate goal. 
 

Allen on the other hand was drafted to a team rebuilding and a rookie  defensive HC who was bound to make some mistakes along the way.

 

Both great players in totally opposite situations.  I don’t think it’s fair to compare these players by Superbowls and MVPs. Jmo. 

What you said is absolutely true here regarding both QBs. What’s unclear is your position about their ranking. Are you saying that because Mahomes was drafted by KC he’s not better than Allen? If that’s the case I disagree completely.

 

Even taking away MVPs and Superbowls, both are QBs metrics btw, objective people can see Mahomes has done more to get his team further than Allen has for the Bills. The year KC won their first superbowl they were down big in their first playoff game against Houston. Their whole sideline, including Reid, was shellshocked. Mahomes was the one going up and down to his teammates encouraging them to not give up. This is just one example of how great of a player and leader he is. Like it or not he has that ‘it’ factor. That’s not something you can coach. It’s not a coincidence that Andy Reid couldn’t win the big one until Mahomes. At this point to not recognize that Mahomes is the best qb in the league is just being a homer.

 

Like I said earlier, Allen is #2 and there’s nothing wrong with that at all. That’s more than capable to win it all. Whether it happens will depend on a lot of things beyond his own ability. 

[GoBills808]

47 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Some of those stats make for a valid comparison.  Team records & records in the playoffs do not.

 

Correct

[Success]

7 minutes ago, Billl said:

I love how you just hand waive away a Super Bowl and MVP.  Cam Newton’s best WR was Ted Ginn that season, and the Bills have had the 1st or 2nd ranked defense for 3 straight seasons.  Cam was the league MVP and took his team to the Super Bowl.  Those are 2 major accomplishments.

 

Cam put the whole team on his back, eh?

 

They are great accomplishments. But like I said, the MVP is a relative accomplishment, as in it's relative to the competition. If JA had his 5th year the same year that Cam had his 5th year - Cam isn't winning the MVP.  JA was better in every category.

 

The SB is never an individual accomplishment.  I always rejected the Brady/Manning comparisons based on that.  I happen to think Brady is better overall, but it's not the slam dunk many argue because of the SB wins.  Brady had one coach for 6 of those wins - and he happened to be the greatest coach of all time. Manning had 5 different coaches.  Put Manning on the Pats in 2000 and Brady on the Colts, and I'm gonna guess the SB totals would be a little different for each.

 

[BananaB]

6 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

What you said is absolutely true here regarding both QBs. What’s unclear is your position about their ranking. Are you saying that because Mahomes was drafted by KC he’s not better than Allen? If that’s the case I disagree completely.

 

Even taking away MVPs and Superbowls, both are QBs metrics btw, objective people can see Mahomes has done more to get his team further than Allen has for the Bills. The year KC won their first superbowl they were down big in their first playoff game against Houston. Their whole sideline, including Reid, was shellshocked. Mahomes was the one going up and down to his teammates encouraging them to not give up. This is just one example of how great of a player and leader he is. Like it or not he has that ‘it’ factor. That’s not something you can coach. It’s not a coincidence that Andy Reid couldn’t win the big one until Mahomes. At this point to not recognize that Mahomes is the best qb in the league is just being a homer.

 

Like I said earlier, Allen is #2 and there’s nothing wrong with that at all. That’s more than capable to win it all. Whether it happens will depend on a lot of things beyond his own ability. 

I don’t know who’s better. Like I said, totally different situations. You compliment Mahommes for what he’s done in the playoffs and how much he led the team but you fail to acknowledge Andy Reid is still his coach and his job to put Mahommes and everyone else on offense to be successful. That’s big difference than what Allen has had looking over him, and it’s not even ***** close. 

[Mikie2times]

9 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Correct

 

49 minutes ago, Success said:

 

Football is the ultimate team game.  Team accomplishments shouldn't affect evaluation of QB's.

 

So, for me - that's exactly how it works.  Trent Dilfer is not better than Dan Marino.

 

You guys had a degree of credibility until you formed and argument around Dan Marino being the best QB of all time. Give me a break. Are we supposed to believe it was the strength of the Patriots and Chiefs teams that led to multiple championships 😂

[Success]

12 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

What you said is absolutely true here regarding both QBs. What’s unclear is your position about their ranking. Are you saying that because Mahomes was drafted by KC he’s not better than Allen? If that’s the case I disagree completely.

 

Even taking away MVPs and Superbowls, both are QBs metrics btw, objective people can see Mahomes has done more to get his team further than Allen has for the Bills. The year KC won their first superbowl they were down big in their first playoff game against Houston. Their whole sideline, including Reid, was shellshocked. Mahomes was the one going up and down to his teammates encouraging them to not give up. This is just one example of how great of a player and leader he is. Like it or not he has that ‘it’ factor. That’s not something you can coach. It’s not a coincidence that Andy Reid couldn’t win the big one until Mahomes. At this point to not recognize that Mahomes is the best qb in the league is just being a homer.

 

Like I said earlier, Allen is #2 and there’s nothing wrong with that at all. That’s more than capable to win it all. Whether it happens will depend on a lot of things beyond his own ability. 

 

I disagree w/ the idea that Mahomes has done "more."

 

Prior to this season, no one disputed that Allen had to basically put the entire team on his back for a significant # of the Bills' wins.  Not all the time, but quite a bit of it.  No run game, a D that faltered at key times, questionable coaching

 

Mahomes didn't have to deal w/ any of those negatives.  His teams have been better constructed, and better coached.

 

Is Mahomes "better"?  Objectively, I agree w/ that one conclusion - he is right now. But "right now" is the operative term there.  We'll be able to judge that better in 10 years or so.  For my own part, I'd take Allen over Mahomes 10x out of 10.

 

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

You guys had a degree of credibility until you formed and argument around Dan Marino being the best QB of all time. Give me a break. Are we supposed to believe it was the strength of the Patriots and Chiefs teams that led to multiple championships 😂

 

I didn't say Marino was the best of all time.

 

[GoBills808]

Just now, Mikie2times said:

 

You guys had a degree of credibility until you formed and argument around Dan Marino being the best QB of all time. Give me a break. Are we supposed to believe it was the strength of the Patriots and Chiefs teams that led to multiple championships 😂

Are we supposed to believe you think Jimmy Garoppolo is a better QB than Allen because winning%

[The Wiz]