Caleb Williams demanding part ownership

[Buffalo716]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

And yet Utah got smoked by Oregon State at home. This is the same Utah team that they have every year.  I’d be willing to bet that USC has had much higher rated recruiting classes than Utah the last three years…I’ll grant you that Utah is better coached.

Recruiting classes doesn't mean end all be all... The difference between a top 50 and a top 200 player at 18 years old will change drastically with coaching and development... Some teams maximize a top 200 player and turn them into a top 10 pick... Other teams don't develop a 5* top 15 recruit and put square pegs in round holes

 

Saban built a dynasty because he consistently took top 50 and top 100 players... And consistently developed them in his scheme and strength and conditioning program which was a modern blueprint... He was able to redshirt top 20 kids.. keep them 5 years ... Unheard of... He can't even do it now 

 

Texas A&M has had top 5-10 recruiting classes for half a decade straight and they suck..  including a number one overall... Can't develop 

 

It takes a lot more than getting good 18-year-olds....

 

And Oregon State played Utah using a backup 

 

That shows how bad usc defense is...

 

I think Oregon State and Utah are the most balanced teams in the pac 12... Washington has the highest ceiling 

 

Oregon state is a much better team than USC also.. USC wouldn't beat the beavers... They aren't gonna beat Oregon or Washington ... They might lose versus UCLA

 

 

As I said USC is a four loss team... And it's not because of the QB at the end of the day

 

They have holes... They have years of not properly developing their roster 

 

Sorry for the rant !

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

All this talk about Williams but when do people start asking about Lincoln Riley? 

 

His offenses always score points but in years now at Oklahoma and USC his defenses have been consistently terrible. Eventually that is just on him to fix.

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

All this talk about Williams but when do people start asking about Lincoln Riley? 

 

His offenses always score points but in years now at Oklahoma and USC his defenses have been consistently terrible. Eventually that is just on him to fix.

As I said Oklahoma... Which most wouldn't realize... Has the most wins post world war II and any division one program

 

And they rebounded with venables without Caleb... And I think they're in a better long-term position still... Oklahoma is a traditional powerhouse for 70 years straight

 

Not sold on USC and Lincoln Riley can't build the defense

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

As I said Oklahoma... Which most wouldn't realize... Has the most wins post world war II and any division one program

 

And they rebounded with venables without Caleb... And I think they're in a better long-term position still... Oklahoma is a traditional powerhouse for 70 years straight

 

Not sold on USC and Lincoln Riley can't build the defense

 

Riley's record on defense is atrocious and he seems to get a complete pass.

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Riley's record on defense is atrocious and he seems to get a complete pass.

Because of his conferences. Good defense has always been optional in the Big 12 and the PAC. Good offense is mandatory. This is just accepted fact in the CFB world. 

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Because of his conferences. Good defense has always been optional in the Big 12 and the PAC. Good offense is mandatory. This is just accepted fact in the CFB world. 

 

Yea but his defenses are truly awful year after year. At some point that becomes a question of coaching. Put it this way, a defensive Head Coach with offenses as bad as Riley's defences would be lucky to see a 3rd season in a job. Now I get it, offense > defense. But Oklahoma and USC are programmes that judge themselves by winning the big bowl games (which these days means making the playoffs) and National Championships. So if he ever wants to build a programme capable of winning a playoff game or even a Natty he eventually will have to have a defense that at least doesn't suck. 

[4merper4mer]

42 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea but his defenses are truly awful year after year. At some point that becomes a question of coaching. Put it this way, a defensive Head Coach with offenses as bad as Riley's defences would be lucky to see a 3rd season in a job. Now I get it, offense > defense. But Oklahoma and USC are programmes that judge themselves by winning the big bowl games (which these days means making the playoffs) and National Championships. So if he ever wants to build a programme capable of winning a playoff game or even a Natty he eventually will have to have a defense that at least doesn't suck. 

I haven’t watched him play much but I’ve noticed his stats drop off versus top teams.  There are way too many clips of him pouting on the sideline and barely acknowledging teammates. He wants partial ownership.  He publicly stated he’d go back to school rather than play for the Cardinals…..not privately thought it….publicly stated it…..in September.  These are ingredients for a toxic soup.

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

I haven’t watched him play much but I’ve noticed his stats drop off versus top teams.  There are way too many clips of him pouting on the sideline and barely acknowledging teammates. He wants partial ownership.  He publicly stated he’d go back to school rather than play for the Cardinals…..not privately thought it….publicly stated it…..in September.  These are ingredients for a toxic soup.

 

I am not talking about Caleb. I am talking about Riley.

[boater]

Caleb is an Airhead, to the tune of 35 PSI.

 

Each time he mouths off he drops a pick. I'd estimate right now, he's around the 7th pick overall.

[4merper4mer]

54 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not talking about Caleb. I am talking about Riley.

Ok maybe I shouldn’t have quoted you or anyone.  My post was more general about the topic of Williams.

Edited October 22, 2023 by 4merper4mer

[SoonerBillsFan]

I LOVE they are on a 2 game losing streak.  1 more and I bet the worthless POS starts throwing teammates under the bus.

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not talking about Caleb. I am talking about Riley.

Riley left because he is a backstabbing, cowardly, chicken **** who knew he would get is *** handed to him when we left for the SEC.  **** him.

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

 

Riley left because he is a backstabbing, cowardly, chicken **** who knew he would get is *** handed to him when we left for the SEC.  **** him.

 

And add in overrated..... 

[Doc]

I don’t see it with Williams. Immature and struggles versus top-25 teams. 

[PBF81]

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

To be fair, you're saying a Heisman trophy winner doesn't step up in big games, when he is usually insanely good... Even against bad matchups

 

Well, I'm saying that he's only played one big game this season, yesterday, and has only played against two defenses that weren't bottom dwelling catfish.  

 

In the two games that he has played as such, he's 47 of 71, for 455 yards, 1 TD, 3 INTs.  In the NFL that's a rating of 71.0.  It's one thing to not put up a Heisman performance, it's another to do that.  

 

Here's the thing, you've mentioned how good he was last season, but that he has no talent around him.  But only four USC players were drafted, all four on different units, 2 O and 2 D.  His best RB last season isn't on an NFL team and the guy that's replaced him at USC appears to be notably better, and if I had to guess, headed to the draft after his senior season next year if not after his junior season this year.  So why is this team so drastically different than last season's?  I see no reason why it should be.  If several players that weren't drafted left as seniors, that's not typically a big problem for schools given the massive backfills they have for non-stellar players.  

 

So why is USC worse this season?  It's not from a significant loss of talent.  The only OL they lost was drafted in the 7th round.  Addison's the only player.  Good QBs don't fold in college due to the loss of a single WR, no matter how good.  

 

He's got three more big games to step up in.  Cal won't be a big game, but Washington, @ Oregon, and UCLA should all be big games.  It seems like a longshot that they make the PAC-10 CG though.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

USCs backup quarterback if he play today they lose by 20... Williams did put it on the line

 

OK, but having said that, he had a key fumble that like cost his team a TD, had several dicey throws, and got lots of help from his special teams and even D late in the game in not losing by 20.  I watched the entire 2nd half and part of the first.  I saw it.  He wasn't playing well.  Not poorly, but far from a great game on his own merits, having nothing to do with the rest of the team.  It didn't even approach rising to Heisman levels.  

 

Maybe he either overachieved last season or just got lucky last year, who knows.  But lighting up Colorado, San Jose State, and Nevada, three teams with defenses ranked 127th, 109th, and 120th, to the tune of 18 TDs and 1 INT, while putting up 8 TDs and 3 INTs in five other games, an average of 1.6 TDs/game, two of which were also against crap Ds, 2 TDs and 3 INTs in the three games that weren't against crap Ds otherwise, and for not even 1 TD/game, hardly screams out Heisman much less that he should be the first overall draft pick.  Not as I evaluate anyway.  

 

Let's see how he finishes.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

You don't understand the drop off between Williams and his backup... And how utahs defense is schematically a problem for USC... And Williams had a great game versus it last year

 

He scored 42 points in a loss to Utah last year ... 45 In a loss to tulane... 32 in a loss today 

 

Come on though, he got lots of help from his special teams and D.  Of those 32 points, 6 were that Pick-6.  fAlready down to 26.  SC's first TD was Lloyd's 45-yard TD run.  Down to 19.  Williams was 2 for 2 for 6 yards on that drive.  His only contribution was a 13-yard run.  He's not going to be great in the NFL because of his running.  So we can take those 7 off too.  Now we're down to 19, which is far from impressive.  He had one and only one notable play on their second scoring drive, but Washington also deserves equal credit for that.  Washington also deserves credit, alongside Williams, for getting wide open on the only other notable pass play by Williams for 40 yards.  

 

Two FGs otherwise, and that 61-yard PR set-up Williams' 13-yard TD run.  I see two big pass plays in that game, that's it, as the primary reason for 13 points.  That's it.  I see a defense that put up 6, a PR that set up another 6, and Lloyd who ran for a 45-yard TD as the primary reason for 19 of their 32 points.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

He had 381 yards five touchdowns versus Utah last year ... Lol

 

They're not losing because of him... They have nobody else rallying around him

 

IDK why not.  Their team hasn't changed that much.  But Washington and Lloyd did a pretty good job yesterday.  No?  

 

The D put up 6 directly, and the STs provided a 61-yard PR to set-up Williams' 13-yard run.  

 

Meanwhile, on a play that could have won the game, Williams gets sacked on 3rd-and-8 to force a FG instead of going up by 1 or possibly 3 late in the 4th.  That wasn't a Heisman play.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Could you imagine Caleb Williams on Oklahoma right now? With a defense

 

People would be gushing... Williams has the most pressure on any returning college football player I could remember in the last 15 years

 

But why isn't he doing better this season?  They lost almost no one, by collegiate standards, in the draft.  It appears to be nearly the same team.  I'm having difficulty reconciling that.  

 

 

10 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

He certainly isn't perfect... He absolutely isn't a sure thing... But with the way the modern game is going... His tools are amazing... Any great coach should be able to get amazing things out of him

 

No one is.  Burrow was about as sure a thing as I've ever seen.  I would put Lawrence in there too.  Also, keep in mind, that it's quite possible that he was overrated from last season.  Again, he's got four games left, at least, and three of 'em are big games.  Let's see how he finishes.  

 

But as of now, if I'm a GM looking for a QB, I'm incredibly hesitant to use a top-5 pick, possibly top-10, on Williams, based upon his play this season.  I would consider last season more of a fluke, pending his play in November.  

 

Heisman's don't mean much to me in this regard.  In fact, it's funny we're talking about this, but the other criteria that would make me avoid a QB drafted highly, is in fact winning a Heisman.  There's a lot of irony there.  The track record of Heisman winning QBs in the NFL is not inspiring.  LOL  You have to go back to Carson Palmer over 20 years ago, ironically from USC, to find a Heisman winning QB that even sniffed greatness in the NFL prior to Burrow, and discounting Bryce Young for now, whom I'm not betting on to join Burrow in bucking that.  

 

Here's a list of the modern Heisman-winning QBs since Palmer:  

 

Murray, Mayfield, Jackson, Mariota, Winston, Manziel, RG III, Newton, Bradford, Tebow, Troy Smith, Leinart, and Jason White.  The list through the 90s is even worse.  Murray, Jackson, and maybe Mayfield are solid starters, but hardly great.  Over half aren't even in the league anymore I don't think.  Several just sucked outright.  

 

Either way, the only way that I give Williams a percentage of ownership is if it's aligned with his contract from a percentage perspective, and 80% of it goes into an escrow to be paid back if he doesn't ante-up.  LOL  

 

 

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, I'm saying that he's only played one big game this season, yesterday, and has only played against two defenses that weren't bottom dwelling catfish.  

 

In the two games that he has played as such, he's 47 of 71, for 455 yards, 1 TD, 3 INTs.  In the NFL that's a rating of 71.0.  It's one thing to not put up a Heisman performance, it's another to do that.  

 

Here's the thing, you've mentioned how good he was last season, but that he has no talent around him.  But only four USC players were drafted, all four on different units, 2 O and 2 D.  His best RB last season isn't on an NFL team and the guy that's replaced him at USC appears to be notably better, and if I had to guess, headed to the draft after his senior season next year if not after his junior season this year.  So why is this team so drastically different than last season's?  I see no reason why it should be.  If several players that weren't drafted left as seniors, that's not typically a big problem for schools given the massive backfills they have for non-stellar players.  

 

So why is USC worse this season?  It's not from a significant loss of talent.  The only OL they lost was drafted in the 7th round.  Addison's the only player.  Good QBs don't fold in college due to the loss of a single WR, no matter how good.  

 

He's got three more big games to step up in.  Cal won't be a big game, but Washington, @ Oregon, and UCLA should all be big games.  It seems like a longshot that they make the PAC-10 CG though.  

 

 

 

OK, but having said that, he had a key fumble that like cost his team a TD, had several dicey throws, and got lots of help from his special teams and even D late in the game in not losing by 20.  I watched the entire 2nd half and part of the first.  I saw it.  He wasn't playing well.  Not poorly, but far from a great game on his own merits, having nothing to do with the rest of the team.  It didn't even approach rising to Heisman levels.  

 

Maybe he either overachieved last season or just got lucky last year, who knows.  But lighting up Colorado, San Jose State, and Nevada, three teams with defenses ranked 127th, 109th, and 120th, to the tune of 18 TDs and 1 INT, while putting up 8 TDs and 3 INTs in five other games, an average of 1.6 TDs/game, two of which were also against crap Ds, 2 TDs and 3 INTs in the three games that weren't against crap Ds otherwise, and for not even 1 TD/game, hardly screams out Heisman much less that he should be the first overall draft pick.  Not as I evaluate anyway.  

 

Let's see how he finishes.  

 

 

 

Come on though, he got lots of help from his special teams and D.  Of those 32 points, 6 were that Pick-6.  fAlready down to 26.  SC's first TD was Lloyd's 45-yard TD run.  Down to 19.  Williams was 2 for 2 for 6 yards on that drive.  His only contribution was a 13-yard run.  He's not going to be great in the NFL because of his running.  So we can take those 7 off too.  Now we're down to 19, which is far from impressive.  He had one and only one notable play on their second scoring drive, but Washington also deserves equal credit for that.  Washington also deserves credit, alongside Williams, for getting wide open on the only other notable pass play by Williams for 40 yards.  

 

Two FGs otherwise, and that 61-yard PR set-up Williams' 13-yard TD run.  I see two big pass plays in that game, that's it, as the primary reason for 13 points.  That's it.  I see a defense that put up 6, a PR that set up another 6, and Lloyd who ran for a 45-yard TD as the primary reason for 19 of their 32 points.  

 

 

 

IDK why not.  Their team hasn't changed that much.  But Washington and Lloyd did a pretty good job yesterday.  No?  

 

The D put up 6 directly, and the STs provided a 61-yard PR to set-up Williams' 13-yard run.  

 

Meanwhile, on a play that could have won the game, Williams gets sacked on 3rd-and-8 to force a FG instead of going up by 1 or possibly 3 late in the 4th.  That wasn't a Heisman play.  

 

 

 

But why isn't he doing better this season?  They lost almost no one, by collegiate standards, in the draft.  It appears to be nearly the same team.  I'm having difficulty reconciling that.  

 

 

 

No one is.  Burrow was about as sure a thing as I've ever seen.  I would put Lawrence in there too.  Also, keep in mind, that it's quite possible that he was overrated from last season.  Again, he's got four games left, at least, and three of 'em are big games.  Let's see how he finishes.  

 

But as of now, if I'm a GM looking for a QB, I'm incredibly hesitant to use a top-5 pick, possibly top-10, on Williams, based upon his play this season.  I would consider last season more of a fluke, pending his play in November.  

 

Heisman's don't mean much to me in this regard.  In fact, it's funny we're talking about this, but the other criteria that would make me avoid a QB drafted highly, is in fact winning a Heisman.  There's a lot of irony there.  The track record of Heisman winning QBs in the NFL is not inspiring.  LOL  You have to go back to Carson Palmer over 20 years ago, ironically from USC, to find a Heisman winning QB that even sniffed greatness in the NFL prior to Burrow, and discounting Bryce Young for now, whom I'm not betting on to join Burrow in bucking that.  

 

Here's a list of the modern Heisman-winning QBs since Palmer:  

 

Murray, Mayfield, Jackson, Mariota, Winston, Manziel, RG III, Newton, Bradford, Tebow, Troy Smith, Leinart, and Jason White.  The list through the 90s is even worse.  Murray, Jackson, and maybe Mayfield are solid starters, but hardly great.  Over half aren't even in the league anymore I don't think.  Several just sucked outright.  

 

Either way, the only way that I give Williams a percentage of ownership is if it's aligned with his contract from a percentage perspective, and 80% of it goes into an escrow to be paid back if he doesn't ante-up.  LOL  

 

 

Well I certainly wouldn't give him part ownership lol

 

And the past list of Heisman winners is irrelevant... As I've said every player is an individual case.. you can't judge by a school or past winners .. he certainly isn't manziel 

 

Tons of Heisman winners are running quarterbacks... Or guys who won't translate well like Tebow... Had stacked teams around them... Caleb is the team and has to carry ... The last 8 games of last year USC defense allowed 37 a game ... Literally terrible ... Puts insane stress on a QB ... And he won throwing from the pocket, and creating and throwing outside the pocket... NFL throws 

 

Again he checks every single box scouts look for... The worst game of his career is 23-37 200 yards 1 TD 3 picks... that's not good but every QB has a game like that .. Drake Maye has had bad games too... Multiple games with stats like that 

 

And I think USC wasn't that great last year and I don't think they are great this year ... I think they're an eight win team because of Caleb

 

he literally made USC relevant again

 

Literally has 23 touchdowns and four interceptions on the season... 70% completion.. he isn't playing bad ... he's carrying an overrated team that is starting to get exposed 

 

I think Williams and maye are the top 2 and even maye has had rough games 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Buffalo716

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

I’m willing to take a flyer and give him full ownership of the Bills