Simms: Gabe Davis is a good player, but he's not a number two

[newcam2012]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

That is simply not true if one actually watches games.  He runs plenty of intermediate out routes.

With very limited success. Gabe's best catches are when Allen scrambles to buy time and Gabe breaks his route and improvises. Both of them have chemistry together and it shows. Other then that Davis should be sern as a WR3/4. Good guy but bad WR2.

[Scott7975]

11 hours ago, Buffalo Ballin said:

Too bad that "Playoff Gabe Davis" doesn't show up during the regular season.

 

Reminds me of former Laker and Spur Robert Horry and Giants QB Eli Manning. They're inconsistent and low key during the regular season, but when playoff time comes, it's beast mode on.

 

The only reason "Playoff Gabe Davis" happened was because he wasn't used much that year and teams really didn't prepare for him.  To say it a different way, it took teams by surprise because there wasn't really any tape on it.

 

Many of this have said the stuff Sims has said for a couple years now. Other people are just too blind cus stats bro.

[newcam2012]

7 minutes ago, Beast said:

We are starting to see that Brandon Beane has failed in surrounding Allen with weapons. He gets high marks for Diggs and average to failing grades with the rest.

His merry go round of changing WR3 and 4s has been terrible. His decision to keep Gabe as a WR2 is terrible. His decision to move up and draft Kincaid seems to be a mistake because the coaches can't or don't utilize his skillet. 

 

His drafting of Torrence looks excellent and I like the RB pick up of Murray. 

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The only reason "Playoff Gabe Davis" happened was because he wasn't used much that year and teams really didn't prepare for him.  To say it a different way, it took teams by surprise because there wasn't really any tape on it.

 

Many of this have said the stuff Sims has said for a couple years now. Other people are just too blind cus stats bro.

Sims didn't say anything we didn't know already. 

[Andrew Son]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The only reason "Playoff Gabe Davis" happened was because he wasn't used much that year and teams really didn't prepare for him.  To say it a different way, it took teams by surprise because there wasn't really any tape on it.

 

Many of this have said the stuff Sims has said for a couple years now. Other people are just too blind cus stats bro.

Please name 64 better WR's

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

What makes you think he can be the guy? Six games in and he's an afterthought. He's obviously not in the game plan. Sure it's possible but it really seems unlikely he becomes the WR2 on the team. 

 

To say he's been a disappointment is an understatement. The high expectations six games in have been shattered. However, it mostly because the Bills coaching don't know what the F they are doing. In fairness, Kincaid has played well in his limited dink and dunk role. Why you move up in the draft to play him like that is mind boggling. Total incompetence. This organization can F up a wet dream. Will 13 seconds be the norm? 

 

Signed one frustrated Bills fan. 

The gameplan has been masking how bad Spencer brown is very well for a majority of the season and Kincaid/Knox have a lot to do with that.  People scoff at ‘dink and dunk’ role but that is literally what has been required so far lol the offensive line has been getting smoked the last two weeks and diggs has gotten open a ton it is an absolute no brainer to keep guys in to chip/ run some shorter routes as a safety net for when your qb has 4 pass rushers in his face

can’t help but think the giants game goes a little differently if Kincaid plays…nobody else not named diggs got a whole lot of separation early in routes and there just wasn’t enough time in the pocket to hit some guys that would’ve otherwise been schemed open 

 

this is obviously my personal opinion but if he looked slow in the nfl or he wasn’t sure handed then I would be concerned for him but neither of those things have been true 

20 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

The only reason "Playoff Gabe Davis" happened was because he wasn't used much that year and teams really didn't prepare for him.  To say it a different way, it took teams by surprise because there wasn't really any tape on it.

 

Many of this have said the stuff Sims has said for a couple years now. Other people are just too blind cus stats bro.

I think part of it in that chiefs game was mathieu going down early also.  Sorensen got absolutely smoked all night 

[juno999]

28 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I hear what you are saying but I have to ask these questions and be critical of some decisions 

 

Do you think it was a mistake to go into the season with Davis as the WR2? Same for Spencer Brown? I mean the evidence was there to see neither guy was likely up to the task. 

 

The run game is still inconsistent and the use of Cook as a pass receiver is non existent. The Bills have decided to tie Allen's legs together so he doesn't run. That makes the Bills much less dangerous to defend. I get you don't want him to get injured. If that's the case he shouldn't pass because that's how QBs mostly get injured. 

 

Hard to believe the offense is a work in progress. It's mostly due to incompetence by the coaching staff. They have had all off season and six games to figure things out. I mean how long does it take? What the identity of the offense? I have no clue. 12 personnel seems awful ineffective and non explosive. The run still gets abandoned or is ineffective. Runs between the tackles in shotgun formation are mostly ineffective but Dorsey still pounds that drum. The offense is predictable. The saving grace is Allen and his ability to make plays. A perfect example was the TD pass to Quinton. 

 

You pay Knox all that money to block? How good use of salary is that? How effective does that stretch defenses in 22 personnel? 

 

I have little confidence Dorsey will figure things out. This offense goes only as far as Allen takes it. He will need to be Superman once again. A common occurrence for years now. 

They need to get Cook involved in the pass game.  It's a long season and they don't want Allen running around yet.  Regarding Davis and Brown, I think the Bills had too many holes to fill this offseason.  A WR would have been nice but they were off the board so Bills took Kincaid.  I believe Kincaid will be good.  They drafted Torrence and signed McGovern to shore up IOL and they drafted Dorian Williams to replace Edmunds.  These picks/decisions were higher priorities over replacing Brown.  The Bills have quite a few new faces on offense, you know who they are.  It takes awhile for it all to gel.  Bills aren't the only team figuring things out.  Chiefs are 5 - 1 but they're not an offensive juggernaut right now.  I think Davis will be another Edmunds situation.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Gabe is tough to figure out. Statistically, he’s solid. He's catching 70% of his passes and has 2 drops. He is on pace to have 1000+ yards and 10+ TDs. 
 

Game to game, he’s inconsistent. Seems he will have a 5-6 catch 85-100 yard game then follow it up with a 1-2 catch 30-32 yard game.

[Scott7975]

32 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

Please name 64 better WR's

 

I don't need to. Davis is a one trick pony. He runs like 2 routes. You can pull all the stats in the world up about how many yards he gets.  It doesn't matter.  He has a lot of yards because he is a chunk guy. The offense needs a #2 that is more versatile than just run down the field and hope there is busted coverage.  He needs to be someone that can run the entire route tree and get open. 

 

This is Davis...

 

 

 

It's like two routes.  He might have had a couple games in his career that wasn't like this but this is what he does week in and week out. That may be a lot of yards but it's not a lot of help if it comes from only two drives.  We have no chain movers outside of Diggs.

 

Even though he has generally had good hands this year, his history says he doesn't.  He doesn't have speed.  He can't separate very well except for long developing routes with breakdown coverage.  He can't run a route tree.  He isn't good at contested catches. He doesn't even defend potential INTs.  He just isn't good enough.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Scott7975

[BillsFan130]

10 hours ago, gobills404 said:

Except they are great this year. I can’t find the contested catch rate but his catch percentage (70%) drop rate (6.7%) yards per catch (16.2) and passer rating when targeted (119.6) are all excellent. 60 second google search.

Ok well I stand corrected then for the numbers so far this year so thanks for pointing that out.

 

Last years numbers were awful though.

 

We will see how it averages it out over 17 games as it’s still very early 

[Scott7975]

5 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Ok well I stand corrected then for the numbers so far this year so thanks for pointing that out.

 

Last years numbers were awful though.

 

We will see how it averages it out over 17 games as it’s still very early 

 

Yeah, so far this year his hands have been ok.  He had one or two drops that were drive killers but other than that he has been mostly catching the stuff that he should. I can't even really blame him for the fumble.  I was pissed when that happened but since then, I have seen a video replay and the defender punched him in the head.  Hard enough that his head twisted to the limits.  Even still, he is one trick pony and this offense needs more than that.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Scott7975

[Ga boy]

11 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

And he’d kick your ass.

Beane stings like a bee 🐝 

[BeavercreekBillsFan]

8 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I don't need to. Davis is a one trick pony. He runs like 2 routes. You can pull all the stats in the world up about how many yards he gets.  It doesn't matter.  He has a lot of yards because he is a chunk guy. The offense needs a #2 that is more versatile than just run down the field and hope there is busted coverage.  He needs to be someone that can run the entire route tree and get open. 

 

This is Davis...

 

 

 

It's like two routes.  He might have had a couple games in his career that wasn't like this but this is what he does week in and week out. That may be a lot of yards but it's not a lot of help if it comes from only two drives.  We have no chain movers outside of Diggs.

Thanks for uploading these. We all see it on tv but this hammers it home for those on here that don’t want to accept it. There are just too many long winding routes with him. Need a better all around guy. 

[Andrew Son]

12 minutes ago, BeavercreekBillsFan said:

Thanks for uploading these. We all see it on tv but this hammers it home for those on here that don’t want to accept it. There are just too many long winding routes with him. Need a better all around guy. 

But who else to we have to run the deep clear out routes?  Isn't that the idea?  Gabe can take the top off,  Diggs can do everything, and you have Knox and Kincaid to work the middle and stretch the seem.  A gadget jitterbug in Harty and a good receiving back in Cook.

 

I think our weapons are fine, as you can see with our big output games.  It is consistency that hurts us.

[Big Turk]

What constitutes a "#2 WR"?  Because by any metrics you choose to use, Davis is squarely in the middle of #2 WR's compared to his peers in the rest of the NFL. Was last year and is even higher this year...I mean he is #27 in receiving yards this season(#26 if we take out Kelce and only count WRs), which is above #2 levels if we are considering there are 32 #1 WR's and 32 #2 WR's on teams.  Also is tied for 4th in TDs, 1 TD behind Diggs, and 11th in Successful play percentage at 66.7%. Interestingly Kincaid is the highest Bill in this category at 68.4% and is 7th.

 

I think what the issue is, is that we see a very few teams with high level, high pick WR 2's like Philadelphia, Cincinnati and San Diego(before Mike Williams got injured) and we assume EVERY #2 WR across the NFL should be putting up those numbers, but what people don't actually realize is that MOST #2 WR's in the NFL are putting up in the range of 600-700 yards in a season, which is a bar Davis easily clears.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Big Turk

[Andrew Son]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

What constitutes a "#2 WR"?  Because by any metrics you choose to use, Davis is squarely in the middle of #2 WR's compared to his peers in the rest of the NFL. Was last year and is even higher this year...I mean he is #27 in receiving yards this season, which is above #2 levels if we are considering there are 32 #1 WR's and 32 #2 WR's on teams.

 

I think what the issue is, is that we see a very few teams with high level, high pick WR 2's like Philadelphia, Cincinnati and San Diego(before Mike Williams got injured) and we assume EVERY #2 WR across the NFL should be putting up those numbers, but what people don't actually realize is that MOST #2 WR's in the NFL are putting up in the range of 600-700 yards in a season, which is a bar Davis easily clears.

 

bUt iTs nOt aBOUt tHE nUMBers!!!

 

We need someone to run the whole route tree!  (then we'd be bitching about not having a deep threat)

[BillsFan130]

38 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yeah, so far this year his hands have been ok.  He had one or two drops that were drive killers but other than that he has been mostly catching the stuff that he should. I can't even really blame him for the fumble.  I was pissed when that happened but since then, I have seen a video replay and the defender punched him in the head.  Hard enough that his head twisted to the limits.  Even still, he is one trick pony and this offense needs more than that.

I think he had the ball in his wrong hand though for the fumble. I think he had it on the left side but could be wrong.

 

But yes, I agree 

[Chicken Boo]

12 hours ago, BigDingus said:

What does "not a number 2" even mean anymore?

 

Do you really mean he's not a number 1 playing the number 2 role like Jalen Waddle, Tee Higgins, Tyler Lockett or Devonta Smith?

 

What kind of production do you want out of your WR2? The vast majority of NFL teams would be thrilled to have a WR2 that puts up 800+ yards, 7 TD's & extends the field like Gabe does.

 

I'd say he's more than adequate as a WR2, with the only issue being he's not as big a threat in the short-intermediate game as we'd like.

 

Would you be confident in Davis to step up if Diggs were to miss a few games?

 

Gabe's production isn't worth the money he's going to command.  Buffalo needs to be looking for a Diggs compliment and eventual replacement this off-season.  

[Big Turk]

44 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Yeah, so far this year his hands have been ok.  He had one or two drops that were drive killers but other than that he has been mostly catching the stuff that he should. I can't even really blame him for the fumble.  I was pissed when that happened but since then, I have seen a video replay and the defender punched him in the head.  Hard enough that his head twisted to the limits.  Even still, he is one trick pony and this offense needs more than that.

 

Replace him with a guy who isn't able to take the top off a defense and see what happens...you wouldn't like it.

 

Since 2020, the only WR with 75+ catches who has a higher yards per reception is Marquez Valdez-Scantling.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Big Turk

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, BigDingus said:

What does "not a number 2" even mean anymore?

 

Do you really mean he's not a number 1 playing the number 2 role like Jalen Waddle, Tee Higgins, Tyler Lockett or Devonta Smith?

 

What kind of production do you want out of your WR2? The vast majority of NFL teams would be thrilled to have a WR2 that puts up 800+ yards, 7 TD's & extends the field like Gabe does.

 

Even right now, he's ranked #27 in receiving yards (automatically putting him ahead of multiple #1's), tied for 4th place in TD's with 5 others (ahead of others like Jamar Chase, Amon-Ra St. Brown, Travis Kelce, Mike Evans, and many other WR1's, TE's, and RB's), and is only 61st in receptions. 

 

I'd say he's more than adequate as a WR2, with the only issue being he's not as big a threat in the short-intermediate game as we'd like.

 

You're asking a great question IMHO

Flip it.  What does #2 mean? 

 

I listened to this again this morning and caught this: "they have to be a little bit stubborn and patient in the running game, or they have to have a, more intricate..more plays in the short passing game"

 

It sounds to me like what Chris Simms means is, the Bills no longer have a slot receiver that other teams fear, and scheme to take away

OR

That Gabe Davis lacks the NFL-level route running skills to move all around and run all the routes, like (say) Manny Sands could

[Mango]

I’m fairly certain if the Bills somehow signed Devante Adams and moved Davis to the third outside receiver Diggs would still get most of the targets by a wide margin. 
 

Upgrade Davis with the somebody more explosive. Definitely find somebody in the slot.

 

But getting the ball to other players not named Diggs has been an issue since Diggs came to Buffalo. I’m not saying Diggs sucks. He obviously balls. But rewatching some of these games in A-22, defenses are just ignoring some of our TE and RB in coverage. And we’re tossing it to double covered WR’s. 
 

All these things need to be better. This isn’t Madden, we can’t toss the season and hit “simulate to draft”. There is no going out and drafting a new WR in week 6 so I am going to keep harping on the things we can control. Commit to running the ball under center more and throw the ball to the open pass catcher. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Mango